High 8-C Survival of the Fittest Tournament: Joseph Joestar vs Rubia Elstein (Semi-Final -1)

[Chariot190]

I can work with that then, as long as she ain't like psychic, I'll see if I can write something up.

 

[DemonicDude]

Is it safe to say Rubia advances to the finale ? Finale was supposed to take place a week ago arguments for joseph doesn't seem strong.

 

[Popted2]

I can work with that then, as long as she ain't like psychic, I'll see if I can write something up.

Is it safe to say Rubia advances to the finale ? Finale was supposed to take place a week ago arguments for joseph doesn't seem strong.

Chariot is still writing something give him time

 

[DemonicDude]

Arlight

 

[Chariot190]

Well I'll just simplify it in quick posts.
Any reason why Joseph can't just get hit, play dead, and then Hamon charge her from behind or through some means she wouldn't be able to pick up? This might seem a tad convoluted of a plan, but, well, it's something he would likely do.

It's 100% in character for Joseph to play dead if he's out matched, and he can slow his bodily functions and stuff like breathing and heartburn down to a completely halt almost, which should be enough to fool anyone bar like Superman, don't see the analytical prediction helping her given he can mimic death.
From there, why wouldn't he be able to just send in a Hamon a charge through the environment, which being a lush environment, means basically everything can channel Hamon and even store it.

It would be exceptionally simple for Joseph to just play dead, gather his bearings and then take her out.

There's other things of course he has I could get into (though ill admit, bit of a uphill battle, but then again, not like he doesn't have an uzi, oil, a whole environment suited to Hamon, things like forcefield creation and more), but I wanna know if there's any reason this wouldn't work? If she has to actually see things to be able to precog/analyze, sending something like Hamon through the ground or vines or what not from outside her vision while she's off guard should work no? Plus Joseph should be well and capable of taking some hits in order to play dead kinda like he did with Wham, given Joseph can regen and heal gashes, scars, broken bones and more, a bit of damage isn't gonna do him in.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

It depends what those "hits" Joseph takes are. If the damage he receives are from her non-durability negating fire spells, then maybe. However, if she uses Frost Blaze or End of Vermillion and it lands, it's kind of game over, especially with Frost Blaze; anything the blue flames hit freezes solid and then shatters. Even if not those, Muspelheim is so strong it would severely damage Joseph.
Both due to the nature of Rubia's personality and spells, and backed up with her intelligence and experience, she's likely to go for complete destruction and not risk Joseph potentially surviving. It's not ooc for her to hit big.
I highly doubt Joseph would play dead from the start. I see him only doing that if he takes damage and/or can't land a hit, and he needs to come up with a better plan. That means that, if he plays dead, it would be after some time has passed during the fight and he's assessed the situation. It seems a bit unlikely for Joseph to reach a point in the fight where he hasn't been hit by FB or EoV.
Also, even if the fight reaches a point where Joseph is still alive and mimics death perfectly, and while I agree Rubia is unlikely to realize that death-faking, she still possesses instinctive reactions, stat reduction and illusions.

I agree Joseph has some ways of winning, but I don't think it reached >50%. Rubia has a little too much in her arsenal, and a little too much effective arsenal, for Joseph to win a majority of times. His Hamon is strong, but it requiring physical contact against someone who can casually fight from range and with means to disrupt Joseph's attempts to land a hit, Rubia has the upper hand.

 

[Chariot190]

It depends what those "hits" Joseph takes are. If the damage he receives are from her non-durability negating fire spells, then maybe. However, if she uses Frost Blaze or End of Vermillion and it lands, it's kind of game over, especially with Frost Blaze; anything the blue flames hit freezes solid and then shatters. Even if not those, Muspelheim is so strong it would severely damage Joseph.

I wouldn't be so sure, Joseph is a Hamon master, he should by all accounts be able to mitigate flash freezing, because let's not forget, Dio has contact based flash freezing and there's heat based Hamon techniques like Scarlet Overdrive. And let's not forget Hamon can actually cast forcefields, albeit, small ones, which can protect from direct contact based attacks.

Also like, just dodge the dangerous shit? He's not dumb, avoid what he should, exploit what he can, he wouldn't try and tank a nuke to play dead, he'd tank something he knows he can actually tank.

Both due to the nature of Rubia's personality and spells, and backed up with her intelligence and experience, she's likely to go for complete destruction and not risk Joseph potentially surviving. It's not ooc for her to hit big.

Intellect and Experience isn't gonna matter a whole lot when Joseph actively memes on dudes with millennia of experience with super IQ's. And not like that's gonna matter here regardless, she has no experience with Hamon and she isn't exactly gonna start throwing hands with Joseph so so much for skill (and if she did she'd be in a huge disadvantage).

I highly doubt Joseph would play dead from the start.

He'll do it whenever he pleases, against Wham he did it after getting struck once. If he knows he can't win head on, he won't. He never has gone and stayed in a fight he knew would be best to tackle in a different way. If she's as stacked as you say she is, damn right he'll do it from the start, especially given his own analytical prediction.

I see him only doing that if he takes damage and/or can't land a hit, and he needs to come up with a better plan.

He doesn't even need to take damage, he just needs to see her do shit like start flying and using any AOE or range attack. Joseph isn't one for uphill battles, he'd rather just say **** it and be a rat.

That means that, if he plays dead, it would be after some time has passed during the fight and he's assessed the situation. It seems a bit unlikely for Joseph to reach a point in the fight where he hasn't been hit by FB or EoV.

Define "some time", a few seconds? A few minutes? It wouldn't take much to push Joseph to play dirty, not much at all given he does so to some extent in every fight he's ever been in including fights where his foes were actually playing fair like Wham.

Also, even if the fight reaches a point where Joseph is still alive and mimics death perfectly, and while I agree Rubia is unlikely to realize that death-faking, she still possesses instinctive reactions, stat reduction and illusions.

Yeah, so? What good is that if Joseph just channels a hamon burst from below her after she thinks she won? Or just stores some Hamon into one of the billion examples of plant life and waits till she goes by it.

I agree Joseph has some ways of winning, but I don't think it reached >50%. Rubia has a little too much in her arsenal, and a little too much effective arsenal, for Joseph to win a majority of times.
His Hamon is strong, but it requiring physical contact against someone who can casually fight from range and with means to disrupt Joseph's attempts to land a hit, Rubia has the upper hand.

That's actually completely and utterly false, Joseph doesn't need contact, he can channel Hamon into objects and even store Hamon into it, let me remind, the environment they're in, literally everything can conduct Hamon and can also store it. Technically speaking, if Joseph wanted to, he could send a Hamon burst through the ground to explode beneath his foe the instant the match starts without even needing to move, he could not even move, and yet kill his foe from behind, if what you say is true about her needing to actually see it, this could spell disaster if the dude who's just standing there catches her offguard.

And don't forget, Joseph has Hamon shrouds, which are effectively skin tight forcefields that protect from various forces, Joseph can very much avoid some moves by making what is effectively a forcefield. You say Rubia has an effective arsenal and instant kill moves, but you forget that everything around her in this situation, and I mean that, EVERYTHING, is lethal, she can't come into contact with the ground, trees, anything, not a single thing, because if she does she'd die. She best damn hope she kills Joseph, and kills Joseph fast before he gets even one hit in, while she's effectively playing floor and 90% of her environment and the area around her is lava.

Also if she flies Joseph has a tommy gun and crossbolt he can (and has in the case of the latter), infuse with Hamon, he's also a crackshot and can ricochet so even if she does dodge or he misses, she best be careful because that's gonna be coming back to strike her from behind.

 

[speedster352]

I wouldn't be so sure, Joseph is a Hamon master, he should by all accounts be able to mitigate flash freezing, because let's not forget, Dio has contact based flash freezing and there's heat based Hamon techniques like Scarlet Overdrive. And let's not forget Hamon can actually cast forcefields, albeit, small ones, which can protect from direct contact based attacks.

Also like, just dodge the dangerous shit? He's not dumb, avoid what he should, exploit what he can, he wouldn't try and tank a nuke to play dead, he'd tank something he knows he can actually tank.



Intellect and Experience isn't gonna matter a whole lot when Joseph actively memes on dudes with millennia of experience with super IQ's. And not like that's gonna matter here regardless, she has no experience with Hamon and she isn't exactly gonna start throwing hands with Joseph so so much for skill (and if she did she'd be in a huge disadvantage).



He'll do it whenever he pleases, against Wham he did it after getting struck once. If he knows he can't win head on, he won't. He never has gone and stayed in a fight he knew would be best to tackle in a different way. If she's as stacked as you say she is, damn right he'll do it from the start, especially given his own analytical prediction.



He doesn't even need to take damage, he just needs to see her do shit like start flying and using any AOE or range attack. Joseph isn't one for uphill battles, he'd rather just say **** it and be a rat.



Define "some time", a few seconds? A few minutes? It wouldn't take much to push Joseph to play dirty, not much at all given he does so to some extent in every fight he's ever been in including fights where his foes were actually playing fair like Wham.



Yeah, so? What good is that if Joseph just channels a hamon burst from below her after she thinks she won? Or just stores some Hamon into one of the billion examples of plant life and waits till she goes by it.



That's actually completely and utterly false, Joseph doesn't need contact, he can channel Hamon into objects and even store Hamon into it, let me remind, the environment they're in, literally everything can conduct Hamon and can also store it. Technically speaking, if Joseph wanted to, he could send a Hamon burst through the ground to explode beneath his foe the instant the match starts without even needing to move, he could not even move, and yet kill his foe from behind, if what you say is true about her needing to actually see it, this could spell disaster if the dude who's just standing there catches her offguard.

And don't forget, Joseph has Hamon shrouds, which are effectively skin tight forcefields that protect from various forces, Joseph can very much avoid some moves by making what is effectively a forcefield. You say Rubia has an effective arsenal and instant kill moves, but you forget that everything around her in this situation, and I mean that, EVERYTHING, is lethal, she can't come into contact with the ground, trees, anything, not a single thing, because if she does she'd die. She best damn hope she kills Joseph, and kills Joseph fast before he gets even one hit in, while she's effectively playing floor and 90% of her environment and the area around her is lava.

Also if she flies Joseph has a tommy gun and crossbolt he can (and has in the case of the latter), infuse with Hamon, he's also a crackshot and can ricochet so even if she does dodge or he misses, she best be careful because that's gonna be coming back to strike her from behind.

Anyway when the blood vessels are frozen no hamon

 

[Chariot190]

False, no new Hamon.
Residual Hamon is still possible.

I mean, just look at Dire, literally frozen solid, shattered, and as just a disembodied head, could still infuse a rose with Hamon.

 

[speedster352]

False, no new Hamon.
Residual Hamon is still possible.

I mean, just look at Dire, literally frozen solid, shattered, and as just a disembodied head, could still infuse a rose with Hamon.

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Fire Manipulation, Proficient Swordswoman, Spirit Contract, Energy Manipulation, Spirit Manipulation, Extremely sharp senses and Extrasensory Perception reaching borderline Precognition (As a former Elemental Queen, her senses are among the highest of the entire series, and her instinct is so sharp she can deduce and predict events), Non-Physical Interaction (Can interact and harm spirits that can turn intangible or incorporeal), Information Analysis (Can understand an opponent's skill and power level with a quick overview), Heat Manipulation, Homing Attack, Explosion Manipulation, Forcefield Creation, Durability Negation with Frost Blaze and End of Vermillion, Resistance Negation with high-level spells (Her stronger flames have melted a cathedral protected by fire-resisting spells, and Frost Blaze bypasses both fire and ice resistance due to its nature), Slight Air Manipulation (Can absorb oxygen with her flames and turn wind into a fire vortex), Instinctive Reaction (Better than Kamito's; she can react to attacks from blind-spot or who are camouflaged, and to assassins that specialize in stealth), Statistics Amplification by infusing her body parts with Divine Power, Can infuse her whole body with Divine Power, Freezing with Frost Blaze, Statistics Amplification and Healing with Eternal Blood of Phoenix, Purification (Types 1, 2 and 3), Sealing and Unsealing with Brand of Darkness, Statistics Reduction and Stealth Mastery with Isolation Barrier, Necromancy and Resurrection (limited to spirits), Illusion Creation by manipulating temperature, Danmaku with Fire Burst, Curse Manipulation and Madness Manipulation (Type 2) as a result of Mind Manipulation with Word of Power (Can turn anyone berserk, make their powers uncontrollable, and bring forth subconscious and primal instincts), Memory Manipulation (not combat-applicable, unless used after Mind Manipulation), Aura (Intimidation and powerful enough to burn things around her), Social Influencing (Became the leader of a rebellion in another country and convinced hundreds of people to follow her with unflinching loyalty), Environmental Destruction with Muspelheim, Weapon Summoning, Telepathy with Laevateinn and minor spirits, Minor Light Manipulation, Resistance to (fire, steel, cold, earth, wind, electricity, poison, diseases, mind manipulation, memory manipulation, and Fear Manipulation (Unfazed by Muir Alenstarl's presence)), Great Strategist, (Spatial Manipulation, Magma Manipulation, Fire Absorption, Fire Resistance Negation and Regeneration (at least Mid, near-instantaneous, possibly High-Mid with more time)) with Laevateinn's Titan form

Any counters?

 

[Chariot190]

Uh yeah, see above?

Listing a P&A section and going "any counters" isn't exactly how we do things, in that same vain I could just list Joseph's whole P&A and go "any counters?".

Actually yeah in that case, what's her counter to Joseph instantly Hamon channeling her the moment the match starts given the environment allows for it?

 

[speedster352]

Uh yeah, see above?

Listing a P&A section and going "any counters" isn't exactly how we do things, in that same vain I could just list Joseph's whole P&A and go "any counters?".

• Frost Blaze: The logic-bending freezing flames. They freeze anything they touch, including even flames, make them very fragile and can thus shatter them into tiny pieces. These flames later one-shot Fianna's Georgios, and even froze Terminus Est who can resist ice and is known as an anti-magic legendary sword[2]

• End of Vermillion: The power of Flame-Burning Flames, the strongest type of flames. The spell can do anything other fire spells can, but also destroys or devours other flames, and can even annihilate weaker fire creatures. Effective at blocking water attacks. Their power is such that they can bypass fire resistance. Those flames are described as being foreign to both the Human World and the Spirit World (Astral Zero), implying the origin of those flames is otherwordly[5]. The flames of this spell are strong enough to resist getting absorbed[6] by other spells or weakening effects

 

[Popted2]

Uh yeah, see above?

Listing a P&A section and going "any counters" isn't exactly how we do things, in that same vain I could just list Joseph's whole P&A and go "any counters?".

Actually yeah in that case, what's her counter to Joseph instantly Hamon channeling her the moment the match starts given the environment allows for it?

ignore him, he's always like that,

 

[speedster352]

ignore him, he's always like that,

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Chariot190]

I straight up pointed out a an explicit counter to the first one, hamon shrouds, "they freeze anything they touch", forcefield kinda stops it from touching lad.

 

[speedster352]

I straight up pointed out a an explicit counter to the first one, hamon shrouds, "they freeze anything they touch", forcefield kinda stops it from touching lad.

They bend logic and ignore durability she has way too many win cons

 

[Popted2]

Jojo FRA

 

[DemonicDude]

Jojo FRA

Alright one vote for Joseph

 

[speedster352]

I straight up pointed out a an explicit counter to the first one, hamon shrouds, "they freeze anything they touch", forcefield kinda stops it from touching lad.

Nah the Hamon will get frozen and that's bad for joseph. Then she can use her other spells or just frost blaze again and again and her barriers block out Hamon and all of jojos other attacks so Rubia still wins this she has way more wincoins and defensive skills and healing.

 

[Chariot190]

They bend logic and ignore durability she has way too many win cons

Yeah so? Who gives a shit what they do if the main condition for doing any of that is "makes physical contact with foe", and the foe can actively prevent physical contact?

 

[speedster352]

Yeah so? Who gives a shit what they do if the main condition for doing any of that is "makes physical contact with foe", and the foe can actively prevent physical contact?

Nah the Hamon will get frozen and that's bad for joseph. Then she can use her other spells or just frost blaze again and again and her barriers block out Hamon and all of jojos other attacks so Rubia still wins this she has way more wincoins and defensive skills and healing.

 

[Chariot190]

Nah the Hamon will get frozen and that's bad for joseph. Then she can use her other spells or just frost blaze again and again and her barriers block out Hamon and all of jojos other attacks so Rubia still wins this she has way more wincoins and defensive skills and healing.

Uh. Lad, Hamon doesn't get frozen, Hamon is a noncorporal energy.

You can freeze the blood, but you ain't freezing the Hamon, not even Dio who can straight up freeze you solid on contact could freeze Hamon, he had to stop Hamon from being made or being sent out, he couldn't actually freeze the energy.

 

[Chariot190]

You're effectively arguing she can freeze ghost electricity mate, don't be so surprised that I straight up call bullshit on that.

 

[speedster352]

You're effectively arguing she can freeze ghost electricity mate, don't be so surprised that I straight up call bullshit on that.

It's on her profile she has npi with her attacks as well

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah so? Having NPI doesn't mean that particular attack can freeze things that logically are incapable of being frozen, let alone things that have phasing as a key part of its power.
There's a difference between being able to punch a ghost, and being able to freeze it solid.

And I hope you realize, arguing that it'd freeze the Hamon would only spell disaster for her, let's say she does freeze the Hamon, cool, she just ****** up though. That would enable Joseph to easily fool her into thinking she got him and for her to lower her guard, but in reality, it wasn't him that was frozen, it was just the thin layer of Hamon over him, this would enable him to easily catch her offguard.

And as we all know Hamon can be channeled through ice with zero issue, Joseph wouldn't even have to move, he could channel Hamon through the ice, into the lush greens, and then fry her. And she wouldn't ever see it coming.
Things working aren't always a good thing, it can very easily be a bad thing.

 

[speedster352]

Yeah so? Having NPI doesn't mean that particular attack can freeze things that logically are incapable of being frozen, let alone things that have phasing as a key part of its power.
There's a difference between being able to punch a ghost, and being able to freeze it solid.

And I hope you realize, arguing that it'd freeze the Hamon would only spell disaster for her, let's say she does freeze the Hamon, cool, she just ****** up though. That would enable Joseph to easily fool her into thinking she got him and for her to lower her guard, but in reality, it wasn't him that was frozen, it was just the thin layer of Hamon over him, this would enable him to easily catch her offguard.

And as we all know Hamon can be channeled through ice with zero issue, Joseph wouldn't even have to move, he could channel Hamon through the ice, into the lush greens, and then fry her. And she wouldn't ever see it coming.
Things working aren't always a good thing, it can very easily be a bad thing.

Extremely sharp senses and Extrasensory Perception reaching borderline Precognition (As a former Elemental Queen, her senses are among the highest of the entire series, and her instinct is so sharp she can deduce and predict events)
Non-Physical Interaction (Can interact and harm spirits that can turn intangible or incorporeal), Information Analysis (Can understand an opponent's skill and power level with a quick overview),
Instinctive Reaction (Better than Kamito's; she can react to attacks from blind-spot or who are camouflaged, and to assassins that specialize in stealth),
And forcefield creation counters all that

 

[Chariot190]

Well aware lad, it's like you didn't see me inquire about all of that above.

Interacting and harming spirits doesn't mean she can freeze them too, unless she has, in which case post it. Having NPI doesn't mean literally everything you have has NPI let alone everything you have being able to effect them as if they were tangible, let alone things like Hamon, in this case, a energy form that can straight up channel as a main gimmick and something that

Instinctive Reaction doesn't help if you don't know where it's coming from, when it's coming or if you're in any danger to begin with. Hell Joseph has that too lad.

(Can understand an opponent's skill and power level with a quick overview),

Yes, as explained above though, you know that doesn't enable her to understand or know what Hamon is right? Only joseph's physical capabilities and skill? **** if anything I'd argue that alone would lower her guard.

And forcefield creation counters all that

No it doesn't given one of Hamon's MAIN attributes is being able to phase through and bypass obstacles. Completely ignoring I don't think she'd have a forcefield up at all times even after she think she already won.

Having sharp senses that border on precog.

Yes, except we established above that it only really helps for things she can see and analyze visually, it wouldn't help her avoid a sniper from a km for example that she has no idea is coming.

Like come on, you're just copy pasting shit from the profile as if that's an argument, as if we havent blatantly discussed the extent of these things above to begin with.

 

[Popted2]

Based on the scans and video, it looks like it depends where his attack lands, but yeah, that's fair and understood.

Rubia has the tools needed to counter Jospeh and score a win, so Rubia FRA!

I don't think there is much Joseph can do here, it'd be difficult to make use of his intellect with laying traps Aka what he did to deku when he **** stomped him when she can Chandra everything into ashes, and quickly burn away most of the environment, while he has the Ult overdrive, that's a one shot use, and the rest of the time he's hitting at a much lower AP, if he can even get close, I'd say Rubia outranges and burns everything in her path, for this reason, Im voting her

Rubia FRA

Rubia Fra

new arguments have been made, do you want to change your vote?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Instinctive Reaction doesn't help if you don't know where it's coming from, when it's coming or if you're in any danger to begin with

If it's paired with heightened senses trained for years, absolutely it can. Her reactions are better than a guy's who reacted to an attack coming from below him and who couldn't sense said attack.

you know that doesn't enable her to understand or know what Hamon is right?

And like I mentioned early in the thread. Conversely, Joseph has no intel on Rubia's spells. He doesn't preemptively know Frost Blaze isn't just fancy-looking flames but actually a death sentence, nor does he know about EoV, Word of Power, her illusions, or her stat amps.


Your arguments about Joseph tricking Rubia with feinting death assume Rubia would actually fall for the trick. Rubia has to reason to ever get close to Joseph, even if she thinks he's dead, she'll just incinerate or freeze him from afar.

Scarlet Overdrive doesn't really work here. Frost Blaze is a spell that can destroy elements and energy, so trying to melt the ice with fire won't work. Moreover, EoV is an anti-fire spell anyway, so he actually goes for Scarlet Overdrive, he's screwed.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I went to check Hamon's page on the Jojo wikia. For the Hamon energy to be applied to objects, said object needs to be in contact with the user's body. It can't just be used on anything around him. So, no, Joseph can't turn the entire environment into his weapon, even less so in such a short time. Also, inorganic materials cannot store the Hamon energy.
On the topic of abilities, some of Hamon's applications are missing from Joseph's profile, like Forcefield, Fire manip, and others. They should be added.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually why is her analytical prediction and instinctive reaction being made such an issue of, as if Joseph doesn't have analytical prediction and IR of his own? It's not even an advantage, it's literally breaking even.

If it's paired with heightened senses trained for years, absolutely it can. Her reactions are better than a guy's who reacted to an attack coming from below him and who couldn't sense said attack.

Good for him, don't see how's that gonna help when literally everything is a death trap, avoid one just to get struck by another. Because again, everything around them can be used to channel and store Hamon, and not just one at a time.

And like I mentioned early in the thread. Conversely, Joseph has no intel on Rubia's spells. He doesn't preemptively know Frost Blaze isn't just fancy-looking flames but actually a death sentence, nor does he know about EoV, Word of Power, her illusions, or her stat amps.

Doesn't need to, Joseph isn't exactly one for letting himself get hit, he ain't Saitama. Like lad, whether it's instant death or not, he isn't going to just let himself to get hit by it, if he gets hit by anything, he's going to wait till he knows it's something he can risk taking. And stat amps? Joseph's stat amps actually put him higher than her, he's over two one shots above the + when using his ultimate amp, wouldn't call that a boon on her end. Illusions I'm unsure on, mostly because Hamon has been shown breaking various mental ailments on others.

Your arguments about Joseph tricking Rubia with feinting death assume Rubia would actually fall for the trick. Rubia has to reason to ever get close to Joseph, even if she thinks he's dead, she'll just incinerate or freeze him from afar.

Uh, lad, she doesn't need to get close, I honestly hope to **** you haven't misconstrued my argument that drastically because that's a hilariously large misunderstanding.
First off, yes, she will fall for it, why wouldn't she? He can fake death, he can do so with ease, if he gets hit by something and feigns death, why would she presume he's pretending? Especially as her own senses would tell her he's innately weaker than her.
Secondly, she doesn't need to get close, ever, at all, I don't know how many times I need to stress but in case you forget everything can channel and store Hamon in this situation. She could be half a mile away and she wouldn't be safe. You keep forgetting that Joseph doesn't need contact, nor does his foe need to be even in his sight, when literally everything here is a weapon and can store Hamon, nowhere is safe. Rubia doesn't need a reason to get close, in fact her staying far away is best for Joseph, it would enable him to dodge any and all attacks due to the distance between them, all the while he can store Hamon into objects, only releasing it when she gets close enough to them that dodging isn't feasible.

Freezing gets countered by shrouds, incineration is easy enough to avoid.

Scarlet Overdrive doesn't really work here. Frost Blaze is a spell that can destroy elements and energy, so trying to melt the ice with fire won't work. Moreover, EoV is an anti-fire spell anyway, so he actually goes for Scarlet Overdrive, he's screwed.

It was an example, wasn't even saying that was a counter lad. Not that it's a issue, starting to think her going for freezing is more detrimental to her case opposed to it actually being a win condition.

You seem to have misunderstood my argument lad, or have crucial misunderstandings of how Hamon even works, Rubia doesn't need to get close, in fact, you arguing she stays far away is optimal for Joseph. It just means he isn't getting hit unless he wants to. And all these instances of analytical, precog, etc as being a crutch for her kinda foregoes the whole fact Joseph has that too.

Hell, I haven't even gotten into the fact Hamon can be infused into wildlife, empowering them granting them superhuman capabilities as stated by Joseph himself, all with lethal and adverse effects, that can easily lead into her getting overwhelmed and being pressed to dodge in ways that lead into traps. Or again, literally has a gun and bolts with can be imbued with Hamon so it isn't like he doesn't have range too, and mind you, a spray of hamon infused bullets is just as lethal as a fistful of the stuff. I could go on.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Also, also, elementalists can interact, fight, and damage ghosts, as well as energies that are described as "otherwordly" and "foreign to this world" by the narrative. I agree elemental NPI is different from other forms of NPI, but Rubia has several, so it's not unlikely she can interact with the Hamon energy.

On another topic, if Joseph decides to play dead, you're assuming Rubia will casually check his body if he's dead. It's not ooc for her to just keep nuking him from afar. Again, she has no reason to approach him when she knows he's a melee fighter.

You mentioned somewhere Joseph could dodge. On paper, yes, he can. But with equalized speed and Rubia's own skill, fully escaping her attacks that all have both long range and large AoE isn't something that's easily done consistently, even less you when you seem focused on Joseph "playing dead". That just makes him an immobile target.

You also seemed to imply Joseph could Hamon what Frost Blaze freezes. Even if he does, I don't see how that's a problem for Rubia. It's not like the ice is connected to Rubia's body with a thread or something for Hamon to traverse to her. And if FB freezes and crushes his body, that's not helping.

 

[Chariot190]

I went to check Hamon's page on the Jojo wikia. For the Hamon energy to be applied to objects, said object needs to be in contact with the user's body.

Uh, yeah, you do realize that standing on the ground can enable him to channel it into the ground, or the things touching the ground, or this, or that and then release it in bursts. Reading a wiki article and expecting to know the exact mechanics is a bad move on your part. Obviously Joseph can't like Hamon the ******* moon from the ground, but he can go A>B>C>D>E>F>etc, as long as one thing is in contact with him, it can be channeled and domino'd.

It can't just be used on anything around him. So, no, Joseph can't turn the entire environment into his weapon, even less so in such a short time. Also, inorganic materials cannot store the Hamon energy.

It actually can, at least, in this case, they're fighting in a lush jungle island, literally everything here can channel hamon, be infused with, and stored, EVERYTHING in this situation can be turned into a weapon, and yes, it can be done in such a short time, could be done nigh instantly given the circumstances.
If they were fighting in like a factory or a city, you'd be right, but here? Nah this shit is optimal Hamon enviroment.

On the topic of abilities, some of Hamon's applications are missing from Joseph's profile, like Forcefield, Fire manip, and others. They should be added.

Well aware.

 

[Chariot190]

Also, also, elementalists can interact, fight, and damage ghosts, as well as energies that are described as "otherwordly" and "foreign to this world" by the narrative. I agree elemental NPI is different from other forms of NPI, but Rubia has several, so it's not unlikely she can interact with the Hamon energy.

My dude, you don't really seem to understand what I've been even arguing.

On another topic, if Joseph decides to play dead, you're assuming Rubia will casually check his body if he's dead. It's not ooc for her to just keep nuking him from afar. Again, she has no reason to approach him when she knows he's a melee fighter.

Uh, no I haven't? Again, she doesn't need to come near him, in fact good let her stay away, that's best for him.

You mentioned somewhere Joseph could dodge. On paper, yes, he can. But with equalized speed and Rubia's own skill, fully escaping her attacks that all have both long range and large AoE isn't something that's easily done consistently,

It's precisely because speed is equalized he'd be able to dodge it regardless of AOE, the further the distance, the more time he has to dodge, her skill means **** all if she tries to attack a foe from hundreds of meters away or something, she's never going to hit him at that distance because he's just as fast as her attacks, the time it takes her attacks to cover that distance, he'd be that distance away from them. Basic common logic here lad. And thank **** speed is equalized, because if it wasn't, she'd be getting blitzed.

even less you when you seem focused on Joseph "playing dead". That just makes him an immobile target.

Because she's going to nuke a corpse? Citation needed.

You also seemed to imply Joseph could Hamon what Frost Blaze freezes. Even if he does, I don't see how that's a problem for Rubia. It's not like the ice is connected to Rubia's body with a thread or something for Hamon to traverse to her. And if FB freezes and crushes his body, that's not helping.

And you don't seem to understand how Hamon or Joseph work, at all, in fact it's becoming a nuisance. I didn't imply that shit, what I said is that Joseph could Hamon through the ice as liquids can channel and store Hamon, and thus through the ice into the environment, and from the environment into other things and A>b>c>d untill eventually, it gets close enough to her to burst.
And Joseph can actually survive some decent crushing, even before training, he could survive being crushed by Class M levels of force, nothing he can't heal from.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

About the forcefield, Rubia quite literally has a spell that shatters barriers and forcefields.
And you're ridicuously assuming Rubia will just... let herself get attacked and die. Of course she won't. Attacks as a result of erupting the ground, or breaking trees or boulders isn't something that'll surprise Rubia with her extrasensory perception.

Rubia has well enough the means to deal with Joseph before Joseph's own tricks and chaining Hamon shenanigans leave a lasting impact on Rubia, who has both the arsenal, skill and experience to sense it coming and dodge it just fine herself. Rubia has her own tricks Joseph has no way of knowing, whether it's depowering him, using word of power, confusing him with illusions, and using spells that don't care about his defenses and crush them.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Dude, seriously, stop being passive-aggresive with me. I didn't want to participate in this tournament to get headaches by arguing with people who take things the wrong way and then get passive-aggressive about it. Please stop that

 

[Chariot190]

About the forcefield, Rubia quite literally has a spell that shatters barriers and forcefields.

And? That's assuming she knows Joseph can even do that in the first place, it's only something he whips out the exact moment he gets hit or is about to get hit by something dangerous or something he otherwise can't, bar that one time, but he was just showing off. Why would she use an anti-forcefield spell on him when the only way she'd know he has it is if things are already set up to where he'd be tanking something.
This is ignoring he can make a new forcefield by uh, breathing. Shattering it isn't exactly gonna stop him from making a new one nigh instantly.

And you're ridicuously assuming Rubia will just... let herself get attacked and die.

Nobody said she'd let herself get attacked lad, but how is she going to avoid attacks coming from multiple directions including attacks that are coming from places where if she avoids others she'd be forced to get hit by those?

Of course she won't. Attacks as a result of erupting the ground, or breaking trees or boulders isn't something that'll surprise Rubia with her extrasensory perception.

Uh, I don't think you understand how Hamon works, he isn't gonna be breaking trees, or erupting the ground, or breaking boulders, they're going to be stored within them, and then just, come out in a burst. It won't damage anything unless he actively chooses to have them get damaged, which he isn't exactly one for. And knowing they're coming doesn't always help avoid them.

Rubia has well enough the means to deal with Joseph before Joseph's own tricks and chaining Hamon shenanigans leave a lasting impact on Rubia,

Yeah, she has options, but doesn't mean she's gonna actually finish him off before he bullshits her to death, literally everyone Joseph has ever fought could easily kill him, never helped them tho.
And you say "leave a lasting impact", you know one hit by any Hamon and she's ****** right?

who has both the arsenal, skill and experience to sense it coming and dodge it just fine herself.

Dodge one, but what about the others? And that's ignoring the scenario where she's off guard, because as you yourself explained above, her precog-esqe prediction doesn't help in such cases.

Rubia has her own tricks Joseph has no way of knowing, whether it's depowering him, using word of power, confusing him with illusions, and using spells that don't care about his defenses and crush them.

Yes, depowering him is useless, he can just continuously amp himself due to the nature of Hamon, confusing him with illusions as mentioned above, I'm not so sure would work, if it's due to mental assault, Hamon has broken people out of various mental assailants before and if it's like illusions like Mysterio or something, he can actually use Hamon to check what's real and what isn't. Using spells is handy and all, but they still have to hit do they not?

Dude, seriously, stop being passive-aggresive with me. I didn't want to participate in this tournament to get headaches by arguing with people who take things the wrong way and then get passive-aggressive about it. Please stop that

I'm not, I wouldn't be passive aggressive, I'd be flat out aggressive if I was actually in such a mood. If you thank that's passive aggressive, not sure what to tell you besides grow some skin I guess?


Still also don't see any rebuttal to like, the crossbolt, tommy gun (both which, again, can be infused with Hamon), coupled with just the usual environmental hamon channeling and charging. You keep arguing she has ranged instant kill moves, but kinda foregoing she's in just as bad a situation as if she touches any of said ranged hamon imbued weaponry, or a tree, or the grass, etc, she's done for.

 

[AnimeHolic94]

Rubia FRA

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Leaning towards JoJo, voting him FRA

 

[DemonicDude]

Dude, seriously, stop being passive-aggresive with me.

It's been like that since forever not even surprised at this point....