High 8-C Survival of the Fittest Tournament: Joseph Joestar vs Rubia Elstein (Semi-Final -1)

[DemonicDude]

Updated Votes:
Rubia: 7 (GoldenScorpion, Epic, Vin, RandomGuy, Whycant, DD, AnimeHolic94)
Joseph: 4 (Popted2, Chariot, Glace, Fanta)

Both side arguments are clear as a day, Let people vote now.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Chariot's arguments have convinced me to switch my vote to Joseph FRA.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

My argument about the forcefield is that, if the Hamon shrouds can really block Frost Blaze and prevent the flames from reaching Joseph's body which I'm not convinced of, Rubia will immediately know there's some barrier protecting him. In that scenario, it's easy for her to combo her attacks between her barrier-breaking spell and offensive spells. Joseph's shrouds don't "counter" Frost Blaze; at best, it's a momentary defense that will get shattered anyway by Rubia's other spell or the ice itself. Then, the blue flames have access to his skin, and Joseph is screwed.
Concerning the breathing, Rubia can manipulate the flames into decreasing the oxygen around, which will, bare minimum, complicate things for Joseph. Frost Blaze was even capable of freezing a spiritual weapon that is known for being an anti-magic sword.

Rubia solo'ed a squad of elite elementalists which included this chick and equally-strong and skilled fighters, and she casually broke through and strolled through the most heavily guarded prison of the empire. That's not accounting, for the umpteenth time now, for Rubia's really high senses, perception and the best instinctive reactions in the series.
As for the illusions, the answer to your question is in the entry on her profile. It's not a type of illusion that affects the mind. When Joseph hits the illusions, from his perspective, Rubia would have suddenly disappeared.
But speaking of mind, Rubia still has the option of Word of Power, which Joseph doesn't resist. It's in-character for her to use it.

Depowering Joseph isn't useless, because even if he does have a stat amp, he'd just be undoing the stat reduction Rubia inflicted on him. In fact, Joseph likely won't even know what's depowering him as the Isolation Barrier is extremely hard to notice at all. There's also the possibility that the Isolation Barrier can cancel Joseph's shrouds due to IB's ability to overwrite barriers; this last one is a maybe, but it is something to take into consideration.

On her end, Rubia has 3 stat amps and 1 fire-spell amp. Speaking of AP, I guess it wasn't brought up in this thread, but Rubia triple upscales from the 4.68 ton value. Rubia > Base Kamito > Muir > Post-Awakening Claire >> Base Claire = 4.68, and that's Rubia with no stat amps and excluding the effect of stat reduction on the opponent.

Rubia isn't limited to using 1 spell or 1 attack at a time. Even less so when 2 of her spells can be cast anywhere within range, 1 of which is a danmaku, and 2 other spells are homing, one of which can explode in a large conflagration, further boosted by Flames of Elstein. Rubia has herself access to environmental destruction, with much larger AoE than Joseph, which results in it not unlikely for Joseph to be damaged, at the very least, by the spell's edges. Dodge all you want, all the AoE spells coming Joseph's way forms a lot of attacks, which Rubia can cast and control in such a way to pincer or surprise attack Joseph from multiple directions.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I did research on Hamon and how it works, through episode clips, forums, comments, etc. For Hamon to effectively be stored inside something, the user needs to continuously feed energy into that something, which means if he wants to pass it through the ground or his clackers, he'd need to continuously provide energy. If he throws his clackers, the Hamon energy inside them will only persist for a few meters uncharnelled.
Another thing about Hamon I found is that the charging time isn't instant. Whether it was to manipulate water, create magnetism, create fire, or just charge a body part or object with it, it is not instant. The charging time only takes a few seconds, yes, but it's still a few seconds, not immediate.

The speed in this match is Massively Hypersonic. That means that attacks will fly around at insane speeds, and will be much faster than Hamon charging. This translates to Rubia's spells reaching Joseph earlier than Joseph will have Hamon-charged weapons and environment ready.

Furthermore, not everything can store Hamon, most notably inorganic materials, such as metal or stone. Bullets and grenades are commonly made of inorganic materials such as metal, and thus cannot store Hamon, which in turn cannot achieve an from-every-direction multi attack, and won't "overwhelm" Rubia as effectively. Not even all types of ground can work, as it depends what the ground in question is made of, if the ground has minerals, if it's wet or not, or rigid or not, etc.
In short, his Tommy Gun and grenades don't help here, some materials cannot be used as effectively with Hamon, including some in the environment, and with some of his arsenal he cannot both continuously provide them with energy and effectively use them at long range.

 

[Chariot190]

Don't count me, I'm only arguing because I was asked to. Normally I wouldn't even be here.

My argument about the forcefield is that, if the Hamon shrouds can really block Frost Blaze and prevent the flames from reaching Joseph's body which I'm not convinced of, Rubia will immediately know there's some barrier protecting him.

Except she won't, if you're arguing it would freeze Hamon, for all she knows, it worked, she'd be hilariously wrong of course, but not like she is gonna know that, she isn't omniscient. Her freeze attack hit him, he looks frozen solid, why would she assume all that froze was the thin forcefield.

In that scenario, it's easy for her to combo her attacks between her barrier-breaking spell and offensive spells. Joseph's shrouds don't "counter" Frost Blaze; at best, it's a momentary defense that will get shattered anyway by Rubia's other spell or the ice itself. Then, the blue flames have access to his skin, and Joseph is screwed.

Untill he takes another breath and it gets put back up
You realize this can be rendered an effectively passive move that is put up every time he takes a breath right?

Concerning the breathing, Rubia can manipulate the flames into decreasing the oxygen around, which will, bare minimum, complicate things for Joseph. Frost Blaze was even capable of freezing a spiritual weapon that is known for being an anti-magic sword.

Except it won't, he can hold his breath for hundreds of kilometers, it was part of his training, even Will can hold his breath for tens of kilometers. Any and all Hamon that is created, will be saved for future use, all breathing does is prevent the creation of new Hamon, does **** all about existing Hamon.

Rubia solo'ed a squad of elite elementalists which included this chick and equally-strong and skilled fighters, and she casually broke through and strolled through the most heavily guarded prison of the empire. That's not accounting, for the umpteenth time now, for Rubia's really high senses, perception and the best instinctive reactions in the series.

Cool? What do you want to make this a pissing contest of skill? Joseph in two weeks time eclipsed dudes with decades of martial training beyond anything any human is capable of, casually. His first day of training was pulling shit off that got martial masters killed for even trying it. He can contend with and even outskill Pillar Men, dudes with over 100000 years of experience, super genius IQ, the ability to analyze foes every movements and counter them with ease. One of Joseph's rivals is skilled to the point that despite not even knowing what is, can adapt kung fu stances, not because he knows what it is, but because he instinctively knows the best stance for that situation, the Pillar Men such as Kars could kill his entire race with little help, coming out of it without injury while his WHOLE RACE was dead, he then goes onto casually wipe out whole clans who exist for the sole purpose of hard countering him. Lad, it isn't like Joseph isn't skilled, and it isn't like Joseph doesn't constantly fight enemies with superhuman senses, perception and more, honestly, the fact Joseph can bullshit and blindside someone like Kars who has some pretty wacky enhanced senses should account for something.

As for the illusions, the answer to your question is in the entry on her profile. It's not a type of illusion that affects the mind. When Joseph hits the illusions, from his perspective, Rubia would have suddenly disappeared.

Ok so that's even better, if it was mental, all I would really have is conjuncture, but if they're the more worldly illusions, Joseph can easily use Hamon to deduce what is and isn't real, also she might disappear, but it wouldn't matter. Hamon can sense life force, it can sense and locate hidden or invisible enemies through their "life energy" or whatever, this is actually one of the first thing Hamon lads learn, Jonathan for example learned how to do it with a glass of wine, Hamon can be used almost like a sonar to sense living beings, her vanishing via illusions wouldn't actually enable her get out of his perception, he can still locate her.

But speaking of mind, Rubia still has the option of Word of Power, which Joseph doesn't resist. It's in-character for her to use it.

Then see above.

Depowering Joseph isn't useless, because even if he does have a stat amp, he'd just be undoing the stat reduction Rubia inflicted on him.

Uh yeah, so? Joseph without Hamon is piss weak anyway, unless she can completely negate any and all Hamon usability, which she can't, stat debuff isn't a issue, as he'd just go right back to his High 8-C state via Hamon, it's a continuous process, unless she wants to apply the debuff constantly every fraction of a second, it won't be permanent, it's for all intents and purposes actually useless.

In fact, Joseph likely won't even know what's depowering him as the Isolation Barrier is extremely hard to notice at all. There's also the possibility that the Isolation Barrier can cancel Joseph's shrouds due to IB's ability to overwrite barriers; this last one is a maybe, but it is something to take into consideration.

Again, doubt it, and if it's "hard" to notice, he'd notice it, unless it's impossible to notice, don't forget, Joseph himself has some pretty wacky senses (minus that one time but that's more of a feat on ACDC's end), Joseph has extremely high spatial awareness and one of his key gimmicks is analyzing everything around him at all times, never letting anything go unnoticed. I mean, even before his training, never having trained a day in his life, Joseph could do shit like bisect a fly from across a way by flicking a piece of glass, impaling one and decapiting another. Joseph is one for picking up on extremely minute details, whether it's from his foes, or the enviroment.

On her end, Rubia has 3 stat amps and 1 fire-spell amp. Speaking of AP, I guess it wasn't brought up in this thread, but Rubia triple upscales from the 4.68 ton value. Rubia > Base Kamito > Muir > Post-Awakening Claire >> Base Claire = 4.68, and that's Rubia with no stat amps and excluding the effect of stat reduction on the opponent.

And Joseph upscales drastically above his too lad. He can contend with foes who treat foes who actually humiliate low end High 8-C's and treat them as food, a nonissue. Pillar Men>=Joseph>>>>Santana (Considered nothing but a weak puppy, actual dogshit)>>>>Vampires of any kind (nothing but a quick meal for them, completely incomparable)=slightly above baseline.
And then with amps, Joseph can one shot Kars' Light Mode, which could one shot Lisa Lisa and Stroheim, in which Lisa Lisa is 3x stronger than he is normally, hence why he has that + next to his Ultimate Overdrive, it scales far, far, above 3x above himself as odd as that sounds.
the stat reduction as said, really doesn't seem like much of an issue if Joseph is constantly amping himself by pure virtue of how Hamon works, in fact, would that even matter? Making Joseph himself weaker doesn't really effect how much the Hamon effects things.

Rubia isn't limited to using 1 spell or 1 attack at a time.

Any joseph isn't limited to doing 1 spell or 1 attack at a time either, being able to multi-task isn't exactly an advantage, literally anyone could do it.

Even less so when 2 of her spells can be cast anywhere within range, 1 of which is a danmaku, and 2 other spells are homing, one of which can explode in a large conflagration, further boosted by Flames of Elstein.

Yeah and how many of these spells can actually harm Joseph? Don't forget, the dude has regen and healing, literally only two spells I've seen thus far are problematic, and you also have to consider that while she's attacking Joseph, Joseph is sending out Hamon, spraying with an uzi, and doing who knows what else, by simply breathing, or in some cases, by simply being in contact with the ground.

Rubia has herself access to environmental destruction,

Ok cool, nobody was talking about environmental destruction though? Environmental Destruction is completely useless. I hope you don't think that's what Joseph is doing? Because it ain't.

with much larger AoE than Joseph, which results in it not unlikely for Joseph to be damaged, at the very least, by the spell's edges. Dodge all you want, all the AoE spells coming Joseph's way forms a lot of attacks, which Rubia can cast and control in such a way to pincer or surprise attack Joseph from multiple directions.

Much larger AOE is a good thing though, especially at the edges as you just kindly pointed out. Inverse square law and surface area exist
It would be better if her attacks were highly focused so Joseph takes the full brunt of them, not like 1/1000th.

And yes, dodge all he wants, given he can actually like, see the attacks coming, speed is equal, and unlike him, she can't exactly store or lay traps, him dodging while difficult, would be a lot less problematic then her dodging, given Joseph can, as mentioned previously, channel Hamon through everything her to due it's organic nature, but not only channel it, but store it. That's a key part you're not factoring in, Joseph can effectively pump the environment full of so much Hamon, and keep it there. Sooner or later, probably sooner, there won't be anywhere she can move without getting to close to something imbued with Hamon, and given Joseph is an expert in manipulating and leading foes into positions he wants, it wouldn't be very hard for Joseph to set of Hamon and attacks, and have her dodge away, only for her to be dodging into positions he himself wants her to get into, why? Because said positions would have other Hamon charged objects, stored, only for her to get, as you just said yourself, pincer or surprise attack from multiple directions.

And hey, as mentioned, Joseph not only has the means to effectively make the whole environment a death trap and attack through it or store future attacks within it, but he also has long ranged options like his gun and crossbolt, among other things. Any reason why he can't just start spraying bullets, get her to dodge into a direction he wants, and then light her up with Hamon attacks that she can't really avoid due to pincering, without going into another attack or going into the uzi (which mind you, he can imbue with Hamon, at least, given he has oil, but he tends to have that shit on hand as shown in the Wham fight where he brought some with to coat metal armaments with it so they conduct Hamon).


Fyi, this is something Joseph is gonna do all pretty fast, Hamon channeling, charging, whipping out weapons, etc, he tends to that like, right away, no time for ******* around, she slips up, she's dead.

And of course, let's not forget, the secret technique, if Joseph ever gets hard pressed for some reason, he will run away. And he's kind a good at it, he's also pretty good at slipping away undetected or slipping out of view, yes, even against those with enhanced senses. And before you start thinking "oh that doesnt sound in character", it is, it's his secret technique. Losing a fight? Then don't fight, run away and come back when you know you can win, as mentioned above Joseph NEVER fights a fight he knows he can't win, the moment he thinks he can't win or winning will be problematic, he ***** off, but not of cowardice, a strategic retreat, a retreat to where he can gather his bearings, formulate a plan and counter, and act on it.

 

[Nierre]

Rubia FRA

 

[speedster352]

Arlight

Are you counting the votes?

 

[DemonicDude]

Are you counting the votes?

(Insert Jojo's) YES I AM... actually nope I lost count.

Rubia FRA

Nierre let me know of the votes

 

[Chariot190]

I did research on Hamon and how it works, through episode clips, forums, comments, etc. For Hamon to effectively be stored inside something, the user needs to continuously feed energy into that something, which means if he wants to pass it through the ground or his clackers, he'd need to continuously provide energy. If he throws his clackers, the Hamon energy inside them will only persist for a few meters uncharnelled.

Except for when it doesn't. I can list examples, you're confusing channeling, with storing, channeling Hamon needs a continuous stream, storing, it doesn't. Organic materials can store it. Just one touch and it can keep the charge.
He can't store Hamon in his clackers or the ground (depending on the type), he can channel it though, that requires constant streaming. But storing, well, whatever Hamon it was given can be, you guessed it, STORED, for later use, hence the term, storing, not "constantly giving it hamon".
You're displaying your lack of knowledge here, and conflating two completely different aspects of Hamon and trying to say one thing that's explicitly false.

Another thing about Hamon I found is that the charging time isn't instant. Whether it was to manipulate water, create magnetism, create fire, or just charge a body part or object with it, it is not instant. The charging time only takes a few seconds, yes, but it's still a few seconds, not immediate.

Depends actually, this is Post-Training Joseph, it's pretty damn instant, nigh instant even, someone like Jonathan or Pre-Training Joseph take a few seconds, but that's because they suck.

Furthermore, not everything can store Hamon, most notably inorganic materials, such as metal or stone.

Damn, not like that hasn't been said a dozen times

Bullets and grenades are commonly made of inorganic materials such as metal, and thus cannot store Hamon, which in turn cannot achieve an from-every-direction multi attack, and won't "overwhelm" Rubia as effectively.

He actually can with bullets, he has oil on him later on post training to coat metallic objects in it, thus letting them conduct Hamon and keep the charge. He does this against Wham with a crossbolt, coating a iron ball with oil and charging it with Hamon. And then shooting the ball something like half a kilometer and richochetting it, and due to it having been coated in oil, still held the Hamon when it finally rebounded and struck a hole through Wham's chest.

Not even all types of ground can work, as it depends what the ground in question is made of, if the ground has minerals, if it's wet or not, or rigid or not, etc.

Yeah, we're in a lush jungle island though
Literally optimal ground, how many times do I need to say this, we ain't in a city, a dessert, no, we're in a jungle.

In short, his Tommy Gun and grenades don't help here, some materials cannot be used as effectively with Hamon, including some in the environment, and with some of his arsenal he cannot both continuously provide them with energy and effectively use them at long range.

I mean, if you stopped thinking five seconds of contextless research makes you an expert, you'd probably know that isn't entirely true.
You're right on the grenade part, but that's probably why I never mentioned grenades, because they're useless here.
You also don't understand the difference between channeling and storing.

 

[Nierre]

Nierre let me know of the votes

Rubia: 9 (GoldenScorpion, Epic, Vin, RandomGuy, Whycant, DD, AnimeHolic94, Nierre, Speedster)
Joseph: 3 (Popted2, Glace, Fanta)

 

[Chariot190]

Like actually though,



Literally one example to disprove half of what Golden just said.
Don't preach how this does or doesn't work based on quick simplified research, because it's a hell of a lot more convoluted then how you're describing it.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Oh no, you found me out. You uncovered that I'm a little baby dumb-dumb whose brain capacity is so low that it cannot even compare to the great Chariot190, genius incarnate, master of analysis, as proven by his absolute mastery of Jojo. A feeble mind such as mine could never have the mental capacity of doing research about abilities in a VS match, and even less to comprehend the material; only great people can achieve such deeds. After all, only big brains, like the almighty Chariot190, have the ability to understand such deep and intelectual powers in context. There is absolutely no possible way for anyone other that Master Chariot190 to have the brains or capacity to perform the godlike feat of extensive research in context.
See, as Chariot190 the Great explained so kindly and accurately for the whole world to see, I am but a fool, an incompetent, an imbecile, a being who could never even dream of accomplishing the feat of reading and processing information, for I am too weak and slow-minded for such an action. Lord Chariot190 is truly a being beyond this mortal realm; he has proven time and again how superior he is compared to us mere humans, how almighty he is, and how little we match against him. I have seen the truth... There never was a chance for someone such as I, or any of us, to even pose a challenge to the established genius and superiority of Chariot190... truly, what a fool I was to even entertain such a thought.
Ah, such tragedy! I implore you to forgive such a transgression for a miserable being such as I.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, I'm gonna call some shit out as I see it lad, you keep going on about how you "researched it", but the things you were saying are kinda demonstrably false in some cases, and I can bring up a multitude of examples to prove otherwise, you have the basics down sure, but you're confusing and conflating various aspects, and other such things, thus I called it out, don't take it personally mate.

 

[Popted2]

Oh no, you found me out. You uncovered that I'm a little baby dumb-dumb whose brain capacity is so low that it cannot even compare to the great Chariot190, genius incarnate, master of analysis, as proven by his absolute mastery of Jojo. A feeble mind such as mine could never have the mental capacity of doing research about abilities in a VS match, and even less to comprehend the material; only great people can achieve such deeds. After all, only big brains, like the almighty Chariot190, have the ability to understand such deep and intelectual powers in context. There is absolutely no possible way for anyone other that Master Chariot190 to have the brains or capacity to perform the godlike feat of extensive research in context.
See, as Chariot190 the Great explained so kindly and accurately for the whole world to see, I am but a fool, an incompetent, an imbecile, a being who could never even dream of accomplishing the feat of reading and processing information, for I am too weak and slow-minded for such an action. Lord Chariot190 is truly a being beyond this mortal realm; he has proven time and again how superior he is compared to us mere humans, how almighty he is, and how little we match against him. I have seen the truth... There never was a chance for someone such as I, or any of us, to even pose a challenge to the established genius and superiority of Chariot190... truly, what a fool I was to even entertain such a thought.
Ah, such tragedy! I implore you to forgive such a transgression for a miserable being such as I.

so you think Joseph win?

 

[Nierre]

it's sarcasm

 

[Popted2]

oh....

 

[speedster352]

oh....

Facepalm

 

[DemonicDude]

What's the conclusion here

 

[Greenshifter]

@GoldenScorpions Aren’t you also the dude who told me that “I couldn’t be more disrespectful if I tried?”. Look usually very knowledgeable people on a certain verse might seem a little cocky. But usually they’re just so knowledgeable that they’ve seen every argument been brought up a 1000 times to the point it gets tiresome (or there is just a bunch of misinformation to the point it becomes a chore to put everything straight). So don’t take it personal (this is a hobby after all) when they cut right to the chase and try to make you understand that you should read or watch more before making big claims.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I was, yes, though I don't remember the context for that one.
Being passionate about a series or character you like is one thing. Treating others like the lowest of idiots, making snide remarks about their assumed incompetency and stupidity, and, in general, being a narcissistic a******, is another. Being on this wiki, indexing profiles and improving them, discussing with others, and debating conclusions to matches: all of that is a hobby, I agree; it's mine, too. But that's even more of a reason why I don't the time I spend on a hobby to be ruined by people who disrespect and look down on others, with no regard.
Hobby or not, don't slam your self-proclaimed superiority and larger brain on others to make them look like idiots. Having "seen every argument 1000 times" isn't an excuse to being condescending, I'm sorry. I too have had to repeat the same information about a character, or rebunk repeated arguments that didn't hold true. But you can do all that without being rude and treating others like they are below you.
If I say "I did research on X ability, from Y different sources", don't snap at me and accuse me of things; if I look at videos with titles such as "Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Hamon Compilation" or "Jojo's Hamon explained", it's obviously showing videos about Hamon with visual examples of how it works. If I look at forums and posts about how Hamon works, obviously I'm going to get that information. And, no, I of course spent more than "5 seconds of contextless research", unlike what Mr. Smartbrains accuses me of and assumes I'm some brainless dumbass.
It's not about "growing some skin". It's about having some basic and common decency when interacting with others. I really don't think it's that much to ask for.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

What's the conclusion here

Dunno. This has been going on for 2 weeks now, and I'm nothing but tired from this. I don't have more to add without going in circles. Since you're the OP, it's your call.

 

[DemonicDude]

Based off the Votes Rubia advances to the finale.