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A new preferred pronouns feature for our forum

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I believe due to sensitivity of the topics, they personally should be addressed in appropriate staff threads, or more preferably, staff group DMs.

I'm getting big ticking time bomb vibes leaving this thread open, personally. I'll make the thread regarding it myself sometime later.
 
The_Impress said:
I believe due to sensitivity of the topics, they personally should be addressed in appropriate staff threads, or more preferably, staff group DMs.

I'm getting big ticking time bomb vibes leaving this thread open, personally.
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I think that's an awful idea.

This is a topic which affects everyone in the community on a personal level, it is not a standard for not scaling Superman to higher-dimensional stars. Trans, non-binary, and other non-cis people should be able to provide input on this, and the discussion has been very civil so far.
 
FinePoint said:
I see where you're coming from, but it's simply unreasonable to ask everyone on the site to change a very fundamental part of English grammar to accommodate the rare chance that someone refuses to use the unknown application of they/them.
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I mean, do we even necessarily have to? I was originally going to bring up that we likely have no one on the site who solely uses non-standard pronouns (it/its or some set of neopronouns), but I felt that it would contradict my point, so I left it out. But now I think it's important to note it now because I'm not so sure that memorizing hundreds of different pronouns is even needed. Just have an extra category or two to cover less common cases and be done with it, I'd say.
FinePoint said:
They/them is not grammatically awkward, it has been used as a singular unknown pronoun since as early as 1375; people claiming it is only plural are simply ignorant.
Click to expand...
I know. I was mocking the people who were treating it as exclusively plural, if that wasn't clear enough. (But thanks for the neat history factoid!)
FinePoint said:
Your proposal of not using any pronouns by default would be entirely new, and if enforced would turn off many many people from the website as well as create a completely impossible standard of moderation since the offences would be in the hundreds or thousands everyday.
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I... don't believe that was what I advocated? Not intentionally, at least; I can get behind defaulting to they/them and then letting people tell us if they would rather have another set of pronouns, or none at all.
FinePoint said:
If they explicitly ask not be called they/them, of course that is a different situation, but we can't make it the default assumption that they can't be.
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Sure. That's fair.
 
FinePoint said:
I think that's an awful idea.
This is a topic which affects everyone in the community on a personal level, it is not a standard for not scaling Superman to higher-dimensional stars. Trans, non-binary, and other non-cis people should be able to provide input on this, and the discussion has been very civil so far.
Click to expand...
...Yeah it's not scaling Superman, it's real-life stuff, things that should have a heavily moderated and well-thought discussion in its own separate thread. Something I believe a News and Announcement thread doesn't provide, Ant could go offline and we run the risk of conversation turning south.

Good job on keeping the discussion civil thus far, but recognise you're not the only users on this platform, these kinds of threads have historically gone hella south here, hell I believe most can remember some infamous threads in the past :v
 
KingPin0422 said:
not so sure that memorizing hundreds of different pronouns is even needed. Just have an extra category or two to cover less common cases and be done with it, I'd say.
Click to expand...
Hmm. In reconsideration of this point, I believe I can be neutral on the stance of allowing people other pronouns via contacting staff. You're right it would still be extremely rare, and also keep trolls from putting something offensive. I understand that certain people may not know how something like "xe" works, especially if English is not their first language, but given its rarity it may not affect the community as greatly as I think it would.

Edit: Actually, Ant makes a good point. The fact that someone with unique pronouns will visit many threads themselves is what's going to make a large number of people have to account for them.
KingPin0422 said:
I... don't believe that was what I advocated? Not intentionally, at least; I can get behind defaulting to they/them and then letting people tell us if they would rather have another set of pronouns, or none at all.

Sure. That's fair.
Click to expand...
I thought it was implied when you objected to leaving the area blank meaning we assume they/them by default, but I apologize if I misunderstood your point. It seems we have the same concerns, just slightly different methods for addressing them.
 
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The_Impress said:
...Yeah it's not scaling Superman, it's real-life stuff, things that should have a heavily moderated and well-thought discussion in its own separate thread. Something I believe a News and Announcement thread doesn't provide, Ant could go offline and we run the risk of conversation turning south.

Good job on keeping the discussion civil thus far, but recognise you're not the only users on this platform, these kinds of threads have historically gone hella south here, hell I believe most can remember some infamous threads in the past :v
Click to expand...
You may be right that it's better to be discussed in a separate thread, though it seemed natural to discuss it here. I just don't like the idea of staff members dictating a social issue like this in private, an authoritative group deciding in private how other people are able to identify just feels like something which is inherently wrong.

If it's made a staff thread, I would recommend that the staff not be super strict about who they grant permission to comment. Relevant questions should be asked and answered.
 
FinePoint said:
You may be right that it's better to be discussed in a separate thread, though it seemed natural to discuss it here. I just don't like the idea of staff members dictating a social issue like this in private, an authoritative group deciding in private how other people are able to identify just feels like something which is inherently wrong.

If it's made a staff thread, I would recommend that the staff not be super strict about who they grant permission to comment. Relevant questions should be asked and answered.
Click to expand...
...you can always input on staff threads, it just has to be worthwhile comments, is all
 
The_Impress said:
...you can always input on staff threads, it just has to be worthwhile comments, is all
Click to expand...
I see. I was under the impression that you had to explicitly ask for permission and be given it. In that case, it is fine by me. Just disagree on a private DM dictating it.
 
Before this thread gets closed I would like to add that I'm entirely willing to assist with what I suggested earlier if it's ever implemented
 
I don't mind if we add a "Username Only" section, as it is practically workable to a degree, if inconvenient, although many will be confused regarding what is intended/if it is even referring to pronouns and gender identity.

However, adding "Other Pronouns" or "Other Gender" would still make things far too difficult for most of our members, as they would constantly have to ask for clarifications regarding how to address the people who use it in virtually every thread they take part in.

Demanding courtecy and respectful conduct is obviously perfectly fine, but we cannot demand that every single conversation should involve others bending over backwards for us. We have to accept and adapt to what is practically feasible as well, instead of wanting more and more and more, when others are just trying to help. That might cause them to eventually get tired of trying to help at all in the long run.

Also, our staff members cannot currently customise the pronouns sections, and adjusting them to become empty textboxes that can be filled with anything by anybody will invite inappropriate additions and misunderstandings from many members.

Isn't it enough to accept that I made an effort to offer a hand of help here, to hopefully avoid hurt feelings and misunderstandings?

Anyway, if somebody can come up with some additional set option that is easy to understand, adapt to, and apply in practice for all members of this forum in regular speech/text/posts, that is probably fine, but I would very greatly appreciate if you please do not get carried away with additions that are not practical for and alienates a large part of our other members.

Much like Impress I am also fearing that this entirely well-intentioned effort on my part is now at risk of getting carried away into hostility and/or angry unreasonability, in which case we will likely be forced to close this thread and possibly delete all non-constructive posts.
 
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The_Impress said:
@Antvasima anyways should I lock this thread?
Click to expand...
I am not sure. The topic of the necessary practical aspects of forum management and language usage in regular conversations, while simultaneously attempting to be respectful to people's individual gender identities, may be too controversial for this forum.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, our staff members cannot currently customise the pronouns sections, and adjusting them to become empty textboxes that can be filled with anything by anybody will invite inappropriate additions and misunderstandings from many members.
Click to expand...
Just don't worry about it then. It wasn't the best idea anyways IMO.
Antvasima said:
Isn't it enough to accept that I made an effort to offer a hand of help here, to hopefully avoid hurt feelings and misunderstandings?
Click to expand...
I think you're over-reacting a little. You've introduced a new system, and people are naturally interested in if it's a good system or not, and so far nothing has happened in this thread to indicate it's out of control. People have already expressed their gratitude, but if it wasn't clear from me: I think it's a great addition in general and you've done great work in considering it. Thank you.

Anyways, the list I believe should just be:
"He/Him"
"She/Her"
"They/Them"
"Username Only"

A vague category is a bad idea for the reasons you've brought up, and a custom category is a bad idea too for the reasons both of us have brought up, especially if the functionality isn't even implemented right now.

People will know what "Username Only" refers to based on context, and if a couple people don't someone will tell them. It will encompass anyone who isn't happy with the current choices, or if their actual identity is complicated. Rather than force people to memorize obscure pronouns or "bend over backwards" to accommodate them, they should be able to accept that being called by their username is a universal way of, at the very least, not misgendering them.
 
Once again, someone who uses neopronouns (and only neopronouns, for the record) will always have to remind people about their preferences constantly, with or without an "Other Pronouns" option. The option will just make it more obvious that they don't identify with any of the standard pronouns. I know you might still be concerned about the option alienating members or being impractical, which is understandable, but then how would we deal with a new user (who actively uses the site and contributes to it meaningfully) who doesn't like any of the three options given?

At the absolute minimum, we should make it clear that leaving the field blank is an option for those who aren't comfortable with the three standard pronouns, and then from there, the user can say what would be preferable instead. Can we at least agree to that?
 
Finepoint:

Okay. I apologise if I overreacted.

Anyway, I am fine with adding a "Username Only" section, as I mentioned earlier.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Once again, someone who uses neopronouns (and only neopronouns, for the record) will always have to remind people about their preferences constantly, with or without an "Other Pronouns" option. The option will just make it more obvious that they don't identify with any of the standard pronouns. I know you might still be concerned about the option alienating members or being impractical, which is understandable, but then how would we deal with a new user (who actively uses the site and contributes to it meaningfully) who doesn't like any of the three options given?

At the absolute minimum, we should make it clear that leaving the field blank is an option for those who aren't comfortable with the three standard pronouns, and then from there, the user can say what would be preferable instead. Can we at least agree to that?
Click to expand...
Leaving the field blank will just mean that no extra text at all is displayed below your username. If you can come up with a practically workable alternative standard text, I am obviously willing to listen though.

Are you certain that "They" and "Username only" in combination are not sufficient to cover this though?
 
I mean, I did say earlier that as long as we got either a "Name Only" or an "Other Pronouns" option, I would be satisfied. And, as a genderfluid person, I don't mind leaving the field blank for myself, since my pronoun preferences fluctuate, and I cannot imagine having to constantly change that field to match how I feel. People should be more than welcome to use whatever pronouns for me, whether that be He/Him, She/Her, or They/Them.

In any case, I'd like to say that this is an excellent addition to the forum and should help us combat misgendering, and I hope the trans/non-binary/etc. users we have will appreciate it.
 
Thank you. I apologise for misunderstanding and getting the impression that some people didn't appreciate it.

I will ask our system manager to add a "Username Only" section.
 
Actually, why can't we just put it the same way it works for signature and "about you" section?
As in, you can just write the pronouns yourself (especially since some people use both (s)he and they for instance).
 
QuasiYuri said:
Actually, why can't we just put it the same way it works for signature and "about you" section?
As in, you can just write the pronouns yourself (especially since some people use both (s)he and they for instance).
Click to expand...
As already discussed, custom genders/pronouns:
  • Leads to a large number of offensive inputs.
  • Puts unrealistic burden on people to understand and use any obscure pronouns put there, especially those who speak English as a second language and struggle enough with basic pronouns.
The first example doesn't just apply to deliberate trolls, but every kid who thinks it's acceptable to put a joke in poor-taste there (such as the ever-popular "attack helicopter" example).

If someone is fine with either she or they, then they can just pick whichever one they slightly prefer.
 
To add onto this, the forum also gives users the option to turn off the signatures of other members, so there's that as well.
 
We already went over this. It is not intended to potentially be used as an extra "write anything" section, and it would be too complicated for most of our members to adapt to constantly use extremely obscure and newly invented or self--created pronouns in all of their grammatical forms. We are trying to stick with what is most practically workable here.
 
Shmooply said:
To add onto this, the forum also gives users the option to turn off the signatures of other members, so there's that as well.
Click to expand...
The longer descriptions at the bottom of each post, yes. I do this for example, as I find it repetitive and distracting to constantly view them.
 
We added a "Username Only" option yesterday.
 
Hopefully, most users are fine with using pronouns; repeating all those nouns over and over again really wear you down.

But despite that, it's good to have more options even if mostly simplified.
 
N_Kardashev said:
they them is plural unless a user is representing multiple ppl
Click to expand...
https://vsbattles.com/threads/karate-kid-cobra-kai-discussion-thread.129929/post-4510887
unknown.png
 
Outrage! Hop does not see a "hop/hop" option 0/10 (which is not real number!)
jk b0ss
pretty based, if hop say so hopself. Wild, even. Perhops.
(yes this is an excuse to create Hop puns. Call Hop a pun bunny, if you wish)
 
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