A new preferred pronouns feature for our forum

[Antvasima]

Hello.

This is just a notice that I asked our system manager to install a preferred gender pronouns feature for the members of this forum, in order to help prevent accidental misgendering, due to not being able to remember all the details of all our several hundreds of active members at the same time.

Take note that we decided to keep it simple and non-confusing, so the available options for how people want to be addressed are He/Him, She/Her, and They/Them. Also, this is an optional feature, so you do not have to use it if you do not want to.

Here are instruction screencaptures that show how you should activate the feature:

 

[Ogurtsow]

Great addition! We will now know the correct words to use toward one or another member, including honorifics such as Mr., Ms., and Mx.

 

[AKM sama]

Cool!

 

[Jibz]

I think we should really clarify off the bat, disgraceful jokes when it comes to pronouns such as "Apache Helicopter" should be swiftly rebuked. Its a disgusting joke and should not be tolerated in any way.

 

[Shmooply]

I think we should really clarify off the bat, disgraceful jokes when it comes to pronouns such as "Apache Helicopter" should be swiftly rebuked. Its a disgusting joke and should not be tolerated in any way.

Take note that we decided to keep it simple and non-confusing, so the available options for how people want to be addressed are He/Him, She/Her, and They/Them.

 

[Hellbeast]

This sounds good

 

[Jibz]

Obviously i mean for later on, when pronoun options are more adjustable to fit the wide umbrella of gender identities.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should probably continue to keep the current options, given that the others seem so hard to understand, keep track of, and use appropriate forms for.

I applied this change in the first place in order to show respect, and avoid misunderstandings and hurt feelings, not to cause constant confusion and uncertainty regarding how to speak.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate if we can avoid further arguing about this subject.

 

[FinePoint]

Could it be moved to directly under the name, similar to how you have "maintenance worker"?

Right now it's weirdly in the middle and I don't think it looks nice.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean? I think that it looks good for me and Ogurtsow in our posts in this thread, for example.

 

[KingTempest]

this works

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I like this feature since there have been times where I have been unsure about the appropriate pronoun at times, so this will make things easier for me in this regard.

 

[FinePoint]

What do you mean? I think that it looks good for me and Ogurtsow in our posts in this thread, for example.

Now that I'm on my computer it looks good, but on mobile it felt out of place. I think it would fit on both platforms if you just left-aligned it.

 

[First_Witch]

Noooo, I can't unintentionaly catfish people anymore

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is a good addition, and does help with quote a bit of confusions.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I think the 3 options aren't enough, some people prefer other pronouns. Its not that confusing

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They/Them is pretty much the pronoun that's supposed to cover everything else. I'm aware there are people who actually prefer "It" as a pronoun, but those people are quite rare tbh.

 

[FinePoint]

They/Them is pretty much the pronoun that's supposed to cover everything else. I'm aware there are people who actually prefer "It" as a pronoun, but those people are quite rare tbh.

"It" and "He-She" are both generally offensive, and almost nobody identifies with them.
The only reasonably common addition I can think of would be the desire to only be referred to by name.
Just to comment on it, "He-She" is not acceptable for people whose gender you do not know either, since it assumes they are not non-binary.

When trans people first began to open up, there was pronouns like xe, xim introduced, but these have largely been replaced with they/them.

 

[Antvasima]

They/Them is pretty much the pronoun that's supposed to cover everything else.

This is correct, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Now that I'm on my computer it looks good, but on mobile it felt out of place. I think it would fit on both platforms if you just left-aligned it.

I have asked our system manager to fix it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

When trans people first began to open up, there was pronouns like xe, xim introduced, but these have largely been replaced with they/them.

No, pronouns like that are still in use, albeit less common than he/she/they. Though, given many of the people who use such pronouns are generally also okay with other pronouns (myself included), the current pronoun options available are fine.

Really, I just don't like the idea of shrugging off the existence of other sets of pronouns just because they are less commonly used.

 

[Antvasima]

I think the 3 options aren't enough, some people prefer other pronouns. Its not that confusing

With no offence meant towards anybody, I think that it unfortunately will be far too confusing for most people to constantly try to keep track of what all of it means exactly, and how to use proper forms for the pronouns. See here for example:

 

[Dereck03]

I have asked our system manager to fix it.

Now looks pretty good in mobile, thanks....

Also this addition seems good and somewhat useful

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Really, if we're discussing the use of pronouns outside of he/she/they, wouldn't a chart like this already help a lot with any potential confusion?

Maybe my perspective is skewed because I talk mostly with other LGBT+ people offsite, but I really don't think it's as complex as people make it out to be.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this is a forum for people from all over the world, and most of them are extremely unfamiliar with newly invented pronouns, their meaning, and all of the correct grammatical forms for them, so I think that we would demand too much of them by stating that they should keep track of all the obscure ones, and refer to to a chart for writing their posts, whereas most people know how to correctly apply He, She, and They.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That is fair. I just don't like the notion that these pronouns are any less valid just because they're less common.

In any case, I'm still glad that this feature exists.

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's unrealistic for us to make an option for every neo pronoun available out there, especially since new ones are made every day, not to mention personal ones. So if we start including some, but not others someone will always get offended. Keeping it as simple as possible is definitely the best way to go about it. I can see using something like "Other" option, but I don't know if that would be seen as even more offensive than not having it.

 

[Antvasima]

It's unrealistic for us to make an option for every neo pronoun available out there, especially since new ones are made every day, not to mention personal ones. So if we start including some, but not others someone will always get offended. Keeping it as simple as possible is definitely the best way to go about it.

Agreed.

 

[FinePoint]

No, pronouns like that are still in use, albeit less common than he/she/they. Though, given many of the people who use such pronouns are generally also okay with other pronouns (myself included), the current pronoun options available are fine.

Really, I just don't like the idea of shrugging off the existence of other sets of pronouns just because they are less commonly used.

Note that I said "largely" replaced, not completely.
Nobody is claiming that people with different pronouns do not exist or are less valid, only that it's impractical to keep track of every obscure pronoun.
Statistically, if you were to construct a histogram of people's gender identities, other pronouns would be barely visible. In addition to the fact that gender identity is always evolving and entirely new categories would be created regularly, it becomes impractical to include these data points in site-wide decision making.

Some sites have accounted for this by allowing people to input whatever they want, but this almost always leads to people putting offensive jokes or irrelevant information there. So the practical solution is to include "they/them" as a catch-all option, since even the people who identify differently tend to be okay with this, as you've said.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's true. Honestly now that you've brought it up, allowing custom pronouns would probably do a lot more harm than good lmao

What matters is that everybody feels like they have at least some option for themselves, which I feel has been done appropriately.

 

[KingPin0422]

I admit that all of the neopronoun people I know also identify with other, more common pronouns, not to mention the other issues with trying to account for neopronouns directly. But what would be so bad about having a fourth option for anyone who doesn't fit any of the basic three but still wants to fill the section in? For instance, I actually know/knew a few people who exclusively use it/its (none of which are on the site but still), and I don't think it's right to shove these people into "They/Them" just because of rarity.

In lack of better options, I would like to propose adding an "Other pronouns" option for anyone who falls outside of the typical three sets of pronouns, as a catch-all for those who use neopronouns or it/its. This way, there's no need to memorize many different sets of pronouns, people who use non-standard pronouns are still validated, and anyone who rejects pronouns altogether and wishes to be referred to strictly by name can skip the pronouns section, as usual. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it gets the job done.

 

[FinePoint]

In lack of better options, I would like to propose adding an "Other pronouns" option for anyone who falls outside of the typical three sets of pronouns, as a catch-all for those who use neopronouns or it/its. This way, there's no need to memorize many different sets of pronouns, people who use non-standard pronouns are still validated, and anyone who rejects pronouns altogether and wishes to be referred to strictly by name can skip the pronouns section, as usual. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it gets the job done.

Well, they/them also grammatically refers to anybody whose gender is unknown.
If they leave it blank, then they become they/them by default.

If you label them as "other" then everyone still has to ask their pronoun, which does nothing to solve the issue which is causing us to implement this new system in the first place. It also doesn't technically signify if they're okay with they/them or not.

You'd still be asking people to memorize the individual pronouns of many users or be labeled as offensive.
I believe the fact that the system is optional already covers people who do not like the three options.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with FinePoint.

 

[FinePoint]

In lack of better options, I would like to propose adding an "Other pronouns" option for anyone who falls outside of the typical three sets of pronouns,

Though, I do personally think there is a "better option", which is to instead allow a "Name Only" option.

People choose their own username, so they should be okay with being referred to as such. This would also cover anyone who dislikes being called "they/them" for whatever reason, without demanding people to memorize their pronouns. So long as people understand that if your name includes 16 numbers or is otherwise very long, people will be shortening it.

Just a suggestion if people feel very strongly. The system is probably fine as-is.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Perhaps for anything outside of "He/Him, She/Her, and They/Them", someone could be able to contact a Staff member to implement something, rather than let them be Custom?

Just throwing it out there

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Given that I don't think it'd be a particularly common situation, I think JSW makes sense.

Also, would it at all be possible to allow users to add multiple sets of pronouns? Anybody who uses neopronouns in addition to the three sets available would just have '(x)' and then 'other' below that.

 

[FinePoint]

Perhaps for anything outside of "He/Him, She/Her, and They/Them", someone could be able to contact a Staff member to implement something, rather than let them be Custom?

Just throwing it out there

This suggestion is the same as adding all of the obscure pronouns with extra steps.

Well, this is a forum for people from all over the world, and most of them are extremely unfamiliar with newly invented pronouns, their meaning, and all of the correct grammatical forms for them, so I think that we would demand too much of them by stating that they should keep track of all the obscure ones, and refer to to a chart for writing their posts, whereas most people know how to correctly apply He, She, and They.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Yes, but then we can monitor it on a more case-by-case basis, as it would be by specific request

 

[KingPin0422]

Well, they/them also grammatically refers to anybody whose gender is unknown.

Doesn't matter. If you're specifically asked to not use they/them for someone, don't. Being "grammatically correct" does not erase someone's preferences for being addressed, and if I may be blunt, that's the same kind of logic as "oh, they/them would be grammatically awkward, can I use something else?"

If they leave it blank, then they become they/them by default.

That's supremely stupid if that's the case. There are people whose identity includes not using pronouns at all, and they deserve to have the option to leave their "preferred pronouns" section blank. And no, "those people aren't common" isn't an excuse. I don't see how anything bad could come out of being as inclusive as possible, even for relatively infrequent cases.

If you label them as "other" then everyone still has to ask their pronoun, which does nothing to solve the issue which is causing us to implement this new system in the first place. It also doesn't technically signify if they're okay with they/them or not.

This argument is irrelevant when the pronouns given to those people are just outright not what was asked for. Whether or not we include an "other" option, the people this would affect still have to specify their preferred pronouns at every turn, but at least having such an option gives a clearer indication that "hey, this person doesn't use any of the standard three sets of pronouns." And I can throw that last sentence back at you by pointing out that someone using "she/her" doesn't show whether or not they would also accept "he/him," and the other way around is true. Not everyone identifies with only one gender; hell, I don't identify with only one gender.

You'd still be asking people to memorize the individual pronouns of many users or be labeled as offensive.

My other points should address this statement adequately.

Though, I do personally think there is a "better option", which is to instead allow a "Name Only" option.

People choose their own username, so they should be okay with being referred to as such. This would also cover anyone who dislikes being called "they/them" for whatever reason, without demanding people to memorize their pronouns. So long as people understand that if your name includes 16 numbers or is otherwise very long, people will be shortening it.

Just a suggestion. The system is probably fine as-is.

I'd like that as well for reasons I've already outlined, but I think adding both this and "Other Pronouns" would be the ideal situation. If people really wanna be pedantic about this, though, then I will accept one or the other. But just the three standard pronouns isn't going to work for me.

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With all of that being said, though, I sincerely hope you don't take anything I just said as an attack on your character, and the same goes for everyone else. I just feel strongly about gender issues and want to be as accurate as possible regarding them, but even for those of you who hold a more moderate stance on gender stuff, I think we can all agree that transphobia is disgusting and has no place on this site, or anywhere.

 

[FinePoint]

Doesn't matter. If you're specifically asked to not use they/them for someone, don't. Being "grammatically correct" does not erase someone's preferences for being addressed, and if I may be blunt, that's the same kind of logic as "oh, they/them would be grammatically awkward, can I use something else?"

That's supremely stupid if that's the case. There are people whose identity includes not using pronouns at all, and they deserve to have the option to leave their "preferred pronouns" section blank. And no, "those people aren't common" isn't an excuse. I don't see how anything bad could come out of being as inclusive as possible, even for relatively infrequent cases.

I see where you're coming from, but it's simply unreasonable to ask everyone on the site to change a very fundamental part of English grammar to accommodate the rare chance that someone refuses to use the unknown application of they/them. They/them is not grammatically awkward, it has been used as a singular unknown pronoun since as early as 1375; people claiming it is only plural are simply ignorant. Your proposal of not using any pronouns by default would be entirely new, and if enforced would turn off many many people from the website as well as create a completely impossible standard of moderation since the offences would be in the hundreds or thousands everyday.

If they explicitly ask not be called they/them, of course that is a different situation, but we can't make it the default assumption that they can't be.

The rest of your argument

I do not have much to say about your other points, since my proposed solution solves all of those problems practically. I disagree on the other category because it would require people to memorize the pronouns of potentially hundreds of people.

---

With all of that being said, though, I sincerely hope you don't take anything I just said as an attack on your character, and the same goes for everyone else. I just feel strongly about gender issues and want to be as accurate as possible regarding them, but even for those of you who hold a more moderate stance on gender stuff, I think we can all agree that transphobia is disgusting and has no place on this site, or anywhere.

You are fine. I want people to feel included too, I just want to approach that problem practically.