Naruto Shippuden: The Redemption Arc[7Kuroi]

[Zencha9]

mildly homosexual

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Aight

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Y'all do realized Blacke still didn't say anything about the other CTs

 

[Golden_Void]

The premise of this argument relies on the assumption that Nagato made a CT core with the same amount of power as the first one. I understand it - the core in Pain's fight had enough gravitational potential energy to form a ball of this size, so by destroying the core you're technically overcoming the GPE, regardless of the attraction of rocks.

Since Nagato was basically running on fumes (super almighty push, chakra divided into 6 people, fighting 6-tails, etc) it could be assumed that a replenished Edo Nagato would be capable of far more making Pain's feat a minimum for the feat.

Where you lose me with the science....is the fact that a key part of GPE is the mass of the gravitational source, and the distance to its center. Assuming the core has the same GPE as the complete rock doesn't make sense to me because one object has the mass required for the GPE formula to work, one does not but acts as a medium for Nagato's chakra to provide it with the energy to attract mass, as well as the energy to extend or lessen its duration.

"For example, if I use my hand to lift a book to increase its potential energy, its my hand thats capable of lifting that book and regardless of if that book is there my hand can always do that work to increase that potential energy."

Work and potential energy are entirely different concepts though. Your hand (a byproduct of your arm honestly) has a certain amount of potential energy, fact. Adding a book increases that potential energy, also a fact. But you don't know what your arm is capable of maintaining in your hand in that potential state until it is actually observed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Where you lose me with the science....is the fact that a key part of GPE is the mass of the gravitational source, and the distance to its center. Assuming the core has the same GPE as the complete rock doesn't make sense to me because one object has the mass required for the GPE formula to work, one acts as a medium for Nagato's chakra to provide it with the energy to attract mass, as well as the energy to extend or lessen its duration.

The gravity from the core doesn’t change if it’s summoned near rocks or summoned in a void of nothing. The rocks are a use of measuring it’s capability. For example, my hand can lift a book, and from that we can calculate PE using mgh (mass of book * gravity * height lifted). Then my hand’s energy available to lift can be scaled to that. Same case with the core, just like my hand’s scaling doesn’t magically disappear when the book is gone, the CT core scaling doesn’t magically disappear when the rocks are gone.

 

[Damage3245]

The gravity from the core doesn’t change if it’s summoned near rocks or summoned in a void of nothing

One thing that does occur to me is that the gravity of the core might increase over time. When the core is first summoned, smaller rocks directly below it are attracted first then it increases in the amount it picks up and over a wider area.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

One thing that does occur to me is that the gravity of the core might increase over time. When the core is first summoned, smaller rocks directly below it are attracted first then it increases in the amount it picks up and over a wider area.

I’d have to go through the math but I heavily doubt those rocks individual gravitational pull is relevant, if you’re proposing the rocks themselves significantly contribute to the gravity.

 

[Damage3245]

I’d have to go through the math but I heavily doubt those rocks individual gravitational pull is relevant, if you’re proposing the rocks themselves significantly contribute to the gravity.

No, I'm saying the core itself probably doesn't start off from creation with 15 Gigatons of potential energy.

 

[Golden_Void]

The gravity from the core doesn’t change if it’s summoned near rocks or summoned in a void of nothing. The rocks are a use of measuring it’s capability. For example, my hand can lift a book, and from that we can calculate PE using mgh (mass of book * gravity * height lifted). Then my hand’s energy available to lift can be scaled to that. Same case with the core, just like my hand’s scaling doesn’t magically disappear when the book is gone, the CT core scaling doesn’t magically disappear when the rocks are gone.

Well. the core only attracts as long as Nagato chooses. We know that because in 439, he told Konan he needed to concentrate as he was forming it, as well as the constant physical effort we saw from him (out of breath, nosebleeds), so there is no set gravity. We also see him in 440 ponder the idea of making it bigger in reaction to the 8-tails coming out. So stating the gravity from the core doesn't change implies there is some static value we can apply to it when there is a lot of evidence also showing it is more fluid.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No, I'm saying the core itself probably doesn't start off from creation with 15 Gigatons of potential energy.

I’m no Naruto guy, so idk the specifics of the technique, but that seems like a funky assumption. Other Naruto supporters can comment.

Im only here to argue the gravity/science.

Well. the core only attracts as long as Nagato chooses. We know that because in 439, he told Konan he needed to concentrate as he was forming it, as well as the constant physical effort we saw from him (out of breath, nosebleeds), so there is no set gravity. We also see him in 440 ponder the idea of making it bigger in reaction to the 8-tails coming out. So stating the gravity from the core doesn't change implies there is some static value we can apply to it when there is a lot of evidence also showing it is more fluid.

Again I’m no Naruto expert, I was just told Nagato’s CT > Pain’s. If there’s contention with that I’d tag/call in some of the prevalent verse supporters. No one is contesting that Nagato can lower the AP/output of CT, I’m operating under the above assumption.

 

[Golden_Void]

I’m no Naruto guy, so idk the specifics of the technique, but that seems like a funky assumption. Other Naruto supporters can comment.

Im only here to argue the gravity/science.



Again I’m no Naruto expert, I was just told Nagato’s CT > Pain’s. If there’s contention with that I’d tag/call in some of the prevalent verse supporters. No one is contesting that Nagato can lower the AP/output of CT, I’m operating under the above assumption.

The fully formed rock has its set GPE, because we knew the numbers to plug into the formula. However in a not-yet formed CT, at that moment there are no conditions in which Nagato's CT was comparable to his first one. Plus, the fact that Nagato can double-dip (since he contemplated making it even bigger after it formed), and affect the intensity and duration of the gravity, as well as maintain its position as long as he has enough chakra disproves the idea of a set gravity.

I think it is scientifically inaccurate to compare the two. Stating the freshly formed ball has the same GPE has the fully formed ball with none of the mass means that the ball itself would have wildly higher gravity than the original, producing effects that aren't observed in the manga since at first, we see the ball was only pulling trees out of the ground.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The Naruto mrks off site told me this implies Nagato’s CT is comparable to Pain’s. I leave that up to y’all staff and knowledgeable Nard members who aren’t participating i guess to decide, mainly cuz idrc about this

 

[DenLitz]

The Naruto mrks off site told me this implies Nagato’s CT is comparable to Pain’s. I leave that up to y’all staff and knowledgeable Nard members who aren’t participating i guess to decide, mainly cuz idrc about this

If you really want to upgrade Naruto's Rasensuriken, that's not where the problem is, the problem is that their attacks have different mass (volume and density), showing their similar speed is not enough to prove their attacks are described relative to each other, so attacks Naruto 1/3, Itachi 1/3, Killer Bee 1/3 that's not true

 

[Damage3245]

If you really want to upgrade Naruto's Rasensuriken, that's not where the problem is, the problem is that their attacks have different mass (volume and density), showing their similar speed is not enough to prove their attacks are described relative to each other, so attacks Naruto 1/3, Itachi 1/3, Killer Bee 1/3 that's not true

That's not really relevant for powerscaling. We can acknowledge that the techniques likely aren't completely equal to each other in the series, but to backscale the individual techniques from their combined result we need to divide by the three of them; not assigning the values more arbitrarily than that.

 

[DenLitz]

That's not really relevant for powerscaling. We can acknowledge that the techniques likely aren't completely equal to each other in the series, but to backscale the individual techniques from their combined result we need to divide by the three of them; not assigning the values more arbitrarily than that.

I just found out that a combined attack like that means it's divided by 3 huh... even though the Rasenshuriken and Killer Bee's attacks should have a difference in strength, does the ordinary Rasengan combined with the Rasenshuriken mean that their attacks are divided by 2 like you said earlier?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If you really want to upgrade Naruto's Rasensuriken, that's not where the problem is, the problem is that their attacks have different mass (volume and density), showing their similar speed is not enough to prove their attacks are described relative to each other, so attacks Naruto 1/3, Itachi 1/3, Killer Bee 1/3 that's not true

That commits an AoE fallacy as well, that’s not very applicable to AP scaling where you can have an attack with like door level DC have planetary AP, or an attack with mountain DC only have mountain AP. Size comparisons thus don’t work well here.

 

[DenLitz]

That commits an AoE fallacy as well, that’s not very applicable to AP scaling where you can have an attack with like door level DC have planetary AP, or an attack with mountain DC only have mountain AP. Size comparisons thus don’t work well here.

Yes, But does just combining Rasenshuriken and Biju Dama attacks mean their attacks are balanced/relative? What if the Biju Dama had the biggest attack there? As far as I know Biju Dama's attack feat is indeed better than Rasenshuriken, when against the 3rd Raikage Naruto also tried to use Biju Dama because using Rasenshuriken had less effect, it made Biju Dama's attack feat better than Rasenshuriken, is there any other strong evidence why the attack are they relative to each other?

Sorry if my argument isn't quite right, because I'm not too deep into Naruto, I just want to express my opinion here

 

[BlastX]

I mean, Naruto believed the TBB would be better because he thought that's what caused the Raikage Scar and turns out he was wrong about that, so that example is kinda faulty.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

KCM1 Naruto can't use the Bijū-Dama.

 

[DenLitz]

KCM1 Naruto can't use the Bijū-Dama.

Yeah, it proves that the Biju Dama's Attack feat is better than the Rasenshuriken

 

[Golden_Void]

The Naruto mrks off site told me this implies Nagato’s CT is comparable to Pain’s. I leave that up to y’all staff and knowledgeable Nard members who aren’t participating i guess to decide, mainly cuz idrc about this

I feel Itachi's position where he's showing how Naruto is wildly overestimating CT. Yes, he could not resist the pull of CT, but that's a given when actual boulders which weigh several times more than Naruto are being sucked up and he has no resistance to gravity manipulation. Also, the CT at the time was a fraction of the size of the one Pain used which KN8 Naruto busted out with pure physicals, so it stands to reason that fully transformed B should have been more than enough to destroy it with a TBB. KN6 Naruto's TBB against Pain's CT barely did anything considering it was already nearly complete and massive in size.

Series analysis aside though the math side does not add up either.

 

[BlastX]

He couldn't cause he didn't have Kurama's co-operation, not because lack of power.

 

[DenLitz]

I mean, Naruto believed the TBB would be better because he thought that's what caused the Raikage Scar and turns out he was wrong about that, so that example is kinda faulty.

Naruto thought like that of course because the impact of the Biju-Dama's damage was superior to that of the Rasenshuriken, and it was proven when he tried to do it but it didn't work because the Biju-Dama's attack potential was greater than the Rasenshuriken so Naruto was very difficult/can't even control it while in mode KCM1, it proves that the Attack Potency Rasenshuriken ≠ Biju-Dama

 

[DenLitz]

He couldn't cause he didn't have Kurama's co-operation, not because lack of power.

Yeah, but basically controlling Biju-Dama is more difficult than Rasenshuriken and of course its Chakra expenditure is also bigger which means Biju-Dama's Attack Potency is superior

 

[Golden_Void]

Additionally, I feel it should be mentioned that the CT feat essentially has two parts. The gravitational attraction part is simple, because assuming every boulder the CT pulled up was the size of a 2 story building, we know that at a distance from the center of the core to the bottom of the crater after it was fully complete, the attraction was strong enough to consecutively and simultaneously pull these sized boulders from that distance. This is why Naruto was hyping up the attraction phase of the ability, he can't resist that and especially not in mid-air. However, the value of the feat does not come from the strength of its gravitational pull.

The value of the feat comes from Pain's chakra suspending the CT in the air, directly providing it the necessary potential energy. We see here that as a result of Nagato's health seriously deteriorating, he was unable to continue maintaining the CT, and it fell apart. Therefore Nagato's chakra = CT's potential energy. And since the CT he used as an edo was much smaller, so was his energy requirement to sustain it.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, but basically controlling Biju-Dama is more difficult than Rasenshuriken and of course its Chakra expenditure is also bigger which means Biju-Dama's Attack Potency is superior

Literally nobody is arguing that KCM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken is equal in AP to Gyūki’s Bijuudama.

When multiple characters contribute to one feat, the value of said feat is divided by the amount of characters. That’s just how it works.

 

[DenLitz]

Literally nobody is arguing that KCM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken is equal in AP to Gyūki’s Bijuudama.

When multiple characters contribute to one feat, the value of said feat is divided by the amount of characters. That’s just how it works.

Aight, I just found out that's how it works, can I have a link where the profile shows how this works?

 

[Golden_Void]

When multiple characters contribute to one feat, the value of said feat is divided by the amount of characters. That’s just how it works.

All humans in DBZ are solar system+ for contributing to the spirit bomb

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

All humans in DBZ are solar system+ for contributing to the spirit bomb

Tbf there’s a difference between combining attacks and contributing energy, at least as far as fiction portrays it.

 

[LordTracer]

All humans in DBZ are solar system+ for contributing to the spirit bomb

Mm, that’s not how the Genkidama works

Aight, I just found out that's how it works, can I have a link where the profile shows how this works?

For one example, there’s this, which is divided by 11 because it’s performed by 11 people.

 

[DenLitz]

For one example, there’s this, which is divided by 11 because it’s performed by 11 people.

It's divided by 11 because the techniques they use are the same/relative to each other, is there another example/link profile where how it works like that is written?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So uh what’s the consensus? The science seems to be accepted but did y’all decide on whether or not we will accept Nagato’s CT as >= Pain’s?

 

[Damage3245]

So uh what’s the consensus? The science seems to be accepted but did y’all decide on whether or not we will accept Nagato’s CT as >= Pain’s?

It's not just about if his version is comparable, but if the core has a constant amount of energy from the start or if it builds up to that.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Right right, I’m asking if staff reached a consensus on if we are accepted Edo Nagato’s CT >= Pain’s CT in the feat this thread is based upon. I’m fairly clueless on the legitimacy behind it. But once that’s decided this thread can be wrapped up.

 

[Golden_Void]

Additionally, I feel it should be mentioned that the CT feat essentially has two parts. The gravitational attraction part is simple, because assuming every boulder the CT pulled up was the size of a 2 story building, we know that at a distance from the center of the core to the bottom of the crater after it was fully complete, the attraction was strong enough to consecutively and simultaneously pull these sized boulders from that distance. This is why Naruto was hyping up the attraction phase of the ability, he can't resist that and especially not in mid-air. However, the value of the feat does not come from the strength of its gravitational pull.

The value of the feat comes from Pain's chakra suspending the CT in the air, directly providing it the necessary potential energy. We see here that as a result of Nagato's health seriously deteriorating, he was unable to continue maintaining the CT, and it fell apart. Therefore Nagato's chakra = CT's potential energy. And since the CT he used as an edo was much smaller, so was his energy requirement to sustain it.

This was never addressed.

 

[PrinceofPein]

if we are accepted Edo Nagato’s CT >= Pain’s CT

I mean it is not an argument from the start
As Nagato started the CT and naruto saw it he said since the Nagato they are fighting is the real one not puppets his Justus are way stronger

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Golden Void has a concern that hasn’t been address, I don’t know enough about the series to address it (whether I’d agree or disagree). So, if y’all want this thread to go through y’all who know the series should address GV. I can also just ask the participating staff to just vote now if preferred.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Additionally, I feel it should be mentioned that the CT feat essentially has two parts. The gravitational attraction part is simple, because assuming every boulder the CT pulled up was the size of a 2 story building, we know that at a distance from the center of the core to the bottom of the crater after it was fully complete, the attraction was strong enough to consecutively and simultaneously pull these sized boulders from that distance. This is why Naruto was hyping up the attraction phase of the ability, he can't resist that and especially not in mid-air. However, the value of the feat does not come from the strength of its gravitational pull.

I think the value of the feat comes from
the GBE of the core which well once formed is formed and won’t really matter afterwards anyway as from all the CT that was shown throughout the series once the core is formed the pull begins naturally so yes all the energy resides in the core as in the case of
1. Kaguya - she was made the core then the pulling started
2. Momoshiki was made he core then the pull started
3. The god path made the core threw it up and the pull started and yes I saw something about a four tails naruto not able to damage the CT of course he cant he is morning 6C
I don’t think Nagato case should be any different in all the energy residing in the core not on it surroundings and you may argue that Itachi said destroying the core before it finished pulling everything means the core is not as strong as its latter stage after the pull isn’t complete. That would be wrong as Itachi was going off naruto statement that once the core is complete you get sealed and there is nothing you can do not that the core becomes stronger as nothing suggests it does

The value of the feat comes from Pain's chakra suspending the CT in the air, directly providing it the necessary potential energy. We see here that as a result of Nagato's health seriously deteriorating, he was unable to continue maintaining the CT, and it fell apart. Therefore Nagato's chakra = CT's potential energy. And since the CT he used as an edo was much smaller, so was his energy requirement to sustain it.

Nagato has an edo tensei has ever replenished infinite chakra so I don’t think chakra was his problem so I really don’t know what you meant that he used a smaller chakra
While alive Nagato on the other hand well it is valid he released the CT after naruto broke out of it as it is useless at that point but I think you are implying he is supplying the CT with constant energy that will be wrong as that is not how CT works once created it Ian created not needed to keep supplying energy to it we can take others CT in the verse as an example e.g the one o Kaguya that has been up there for eons

 

[PrinceofPein]

Sorry trying to type on mobile isn’t friendly at all

 

[Golden_Void]

I think the value of the feat comes from
the GBE of the core which well once formed is formed and won’t really matter afterwards anyway as from all the CT that was shown throughout the series once the core is formed the pull begins naturally so yes all the energy resides in the core as in the case of
1. Kaguya - she was made the core then the pulling started
2. Momoshiki was made he core then the pull started
3. The god path made the core threw it up and the pull started and yes I saw something about a four tails naruto not able to damage the CT of course he cant he is morning 6C
I don’t think Nagato case should be any different in all the energy residing in the core not on it surroundings and you may argue that Itachi said destroying the core before it finished pulling everything means the core is not as strong as its latter stage after the pull isn’t complete. That would be wrong as Itachi was going off naruto statement that once the core is complete you get sealed and there is nothing you can do not that the core becomes stronger as nothing suggests it does

Having the GBE assigned to the core mathematically makes no sense. This would mean that the black little ball Nagato throws would have astronomically high mass and gravity precisely because of its small size, and this is before it collects landmass. No calculation on CT has ever used the black ball itself as the feat.

Nagato has an edo tensei has ever replenished infinite chakra so I don’t think chakra was his problem so I really don’t know what you meant that he used a smaller chakra
While alive Nagato on the other hand well it is valid he released the CT after naruto broke out of it as it is useless at that point but I think you are implying he is supplying the CT with constant energy that will be wrong as that is not how CT works once created it Ian created not needed to keep supplying energy to it we can take others CT in the verse as an example e.g the one o Kaguya that has been up there for eons

Applying more chakra to make a jutsu more potent or bigger in size is something that is commonly understood. Nagato told Konan he needed to concentrate to form the core, and the only other time he needed to concentrate was when he shut off the connection to the other paths to level the leaf. Konan subsequently asks Nagato why he is making it so enormous, and Nagato suggests that he should make it bigger. Coupled with the fact that his deteriorating health directly led to the collapse of CT, it can be determined that the core itself is what has the gravitational properties, but it is also the medium for Nagato's chakra where he can determine the initial power to size output, and maintain its structure as well as make it bigger. Kaguya is a different case because her CT isn't bound by Earth's gravity, and its GBE keeps it whole (its a moon).

Nagato has an edo tensei has ever replenished infinite chakra so I don’t think chakra was his problem so I really don’t know what you meant that he used a smaller chakra

I'm saying the feat measures potential energy. Since Nagato's edo feat was much smaller than Pain's, the potential energy in the CT was much smaller, therefore Nagato at the time was using far less energy to sustain a smaller object.