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Son Goku (DBS) VS Silver the Hedgehog (Archie)

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The_Legendary_Vin said:
Righty, I know I'm new here and all, And pretty much don't know any of you guys yet (I know fluffy CreatureZ actually from the dragonball wiki, and we have very different views on certain characters), but I have one question to ask first before I settle on an opinion here, Are we using the Manga Version or Anime (Sorry if this should be obvious, or is already established elsewhere in the thread). since they have different scales and such...
Click to expand...
Anime
 
ShakeResounding said:
The Chaos Emeralds aren't going to be literal miles away from Sonic and Knuckles when they're tapping into them lol. They don't grant energy from that far away except for the Master Emerald, and even with the Master Emerald it's just a few hundred feet iirc
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Oh so the emeralds aren’t inside them but near them (first I assumed it was a random emerald)? Didn’t they fight in high-atmosphere, across the planet or even in space?

Also it doesn’t really matter, like a few meters away from the clash is enough to significantly reduce the energy to baseline, see calcs for tier 8 people in exploding buildings.
 
Greenshifter said:
Oh so the emeralds aren’t inside them but near them (first I assumed it was a random emerald)? Didn’t they fight in high-atmosphere, across the planet or even in space?
Click to expand...
If you look at the panel where they clash, the Power Rings scatter from them directly just as the Chaos Emeralds do. So no, the emeralds aren't even meters away. They're at the epicenter, just as the Power Rings are. The difference being the Power Rings didn't survive the Zone collapse.
 
Righty, so using Anime Goku, he doesn't have the drawback of getting weaker over time, however, he lacks many of Manga Goku's Hax (Manga Goku has Better stamina with UI, can tap into it at will, and has a Weaker version of Hakai, as well as being able to Form a sususano looking avatar around him, and harden portions of his body to attacks (Don't blame me, Blame Moro Saga)... HOWEVER, MUI Goku in the anime has yet to fully get the hang of Ultra Instinct, causing it a very valid possibility, that after a minute or two of fighting, he pretty much explodes, which, would revert him to base form, in a significantly weakened state, while he might match Silver in MUI, and even have a few disrespectful shonen style moments, ultimately, I think Silver would win, due to virtue of outlasting Goku, and finishing off his damaged base form.

Edit: The outcome was inevitable regardless of Manga Goku or Anime Goku anyways, I just wanted to know which points to make
 
Yeah I just think these characters are so fast that 2 minutes would feel like years to them
EDIT: I also think the time he has within ui is enough to do anything we’ve discussed within the thread
 
Well, if you watch The Jiren fight, he dragged it out, it's just his personality, he doesn't try to finish fights quickly, he wants to drag it out, so he can enjoy it, which tbh, is a MAJOR trope in Dragonball, Vegito has lost every time because his time limit, Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta had the same issue, Ultra Ego Vegeta against Granolah, Kaioken and False Super Saiyan in the Lord Slug Movie, Super Saiyan God against Beerus, and I can name numerous other times...it is very possible, with Goku, that he wants to enjoy the fight, and you'll see, that with Ultra Instinct, it happened in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, not to mention, Silver has his Regeneration, that would mean that Goku would have to use up more of his energy simply to keep dealing damage without it being recovered, which further cuts into his stamina, and Silver's force field would likewise cause major issues for Goku, and the Attack reflection as well, though, I dont know much about the sonic universe
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
Well, if you watch The Jiren fight, he dragged it out, it's just his personality, he doesn't try to finish fights quickly, he wants to drag it out, so he can enjoy it, which tbh, is a MAJOR trope in Dragonball, Vegito has lost every time because his time limit, Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta had the same issue, Ultra Ego Vegeta against Granolah, Kaioken and False Super Saiyan in the Lord Slug Movie, Super Saiyan God against Beerus, and I can name numerous other times...it is very possible, with Goku, that he wants to enjoy the fight, and you'll see, that with Ultra Instinct, it happened in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, not to mention, Silver has his Regeneration, that would mean that Goku would have to use up more of his energy simply to keep dealing damage without it being recovered, which further cuts into his stamina, and Silver's force field would likewise cause major issues for Goku, and the Attack reflection as well, though, I dont know much about the sonic universe
Click to expand...
u know that Goku one shots right?
 
Bernkastelll said:
u know that Goku one shots right?
Click to expand...
Regeneration, attack reflection, and Speed makes it difficult, Goku has to charge up a Kamehameha to reach his full AP, which can take roughly 15 to 30 seconds, (This is a guessed charge up), usually he'd dodge attacks as he approached, as per his usual tactic, though this falls short against an equally fast opponent up close (Ultra Instinct isn't a perfect dodging technique, as shown against Jiren, or Kefla (Kefla Grazed him and burned some of his hair), not to mention, Goku one shots is kinda a major jump, since, as I said before, if it's an opponent close to him in power, he WANTS a fight, and he doesn't want it to end right away, this poll says he's willing to kill, yes, but he's a Saiyan, and he makes dumb choices for the sake of a fight (He had intent to Kill Cell and Moro, yet gave them a senzu bean, to make it a fair fight, he could have blown Jiren out of the Ring in MUI much quicker, yet chose to prolong the fight, against Frieza, he coulda ended it much faster, but he wanted to drag it out, even against Majin Buu, as a Super Saiyan 3, he coulda ended Buu right then and there, he was said to have enough power to overwhelm Fat Buu. Time and Time again, he has done this... it's just part of his character, and due to this, I don't think he'll intentionally one shot, he';; have a bit of fun and enjoy the fight, and sadly for Goku, while he may have other Forms, MUI is NOT the form to try doing this


Edit: Sorry if my post is hard to read, In my defense, it's 9 Pm, and I haven't had coffee yet
 
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The_Legendary_Vin said:
Regeneration
Click to expand...
Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating damage that would normally leave large dents and openings.

Not enough to save Silver
The_Legendary_Vin said:
attack reflection
Click to expand...
proof of it affecting characters with almost 2-C AP?
The_Legendary_Vin said:
Speed makes it difficult,
Click to expand...
Speed is equal
The_Legendary_Vin said:
Goku has to charge up a Kamehameha to reach his full AP, which can take roughly 15 to 30 seconds, (This is a guessed charge up), usually he'd dodge attacks as he approached, as per his usual tactic, though this falls short against an equally fast opponent up close (Ultra Instinct isn't a perfect dodging technique, as shown against Jiren, or Kefla (Kefla Grazed him and burned some of his hair), not to mention, Goku one shots is kinda a major jump, since, as I said before, if it's an opponent close to him in power, he WANTS a fight, and he doesn't want it to end right away, this poll says he's willing to kill, yes, but he's a Saiyan, and he makes dumb choices for the sake of a fight (He had intent to Kill Cell and Moro, yet gave them a senzu bean, to make it a fair fight, he could have blown Jiren out of the Ring in MUI much quicker, yet chose to prolong the fight, against Frieza, he coulda ended it much faster, but he wanted to drag it out, even against Majin Buu, as a Super Saiyan 3, he coulda ended Buu right then and there, he was said to have enough power to overwhelm Fat Buu. Time and Time again, he has done this... it's just part of his character, and due to this, I don't think he'll intentionally one shot, he';; have a bit of fun and enjoy the fight, and sadly for Goku, while he may have other Forms, MUI is NOT the form to try doing this
Click to expand...
You don't understand the AP gap at all, Goku downscales from 2-C dudes, Silver scales to Low 2-C, a single breath from Goku could vaporize Silver, and MUI does fights bloodlusted, and Silver is not close to power as Goku, you really need to check the AP gap, ur Cell, Moro, Majin Buu and Frieza arguments are invalid, as Moro is from manga and the rest wasnt against MUI at all, can u show MUI holding back in the fight at all? and really dude, this case is an one shot, they aren't close in strength, Goku is downscaling from 2-C
 
Righty, I see your argument, and it's valid, but Im trying to explain why it falls short

The Regen would likely only handle physical strikes

As for the attack reflection AP, Idfk, As I don't know anything about sonic stuff

The speed makes it difficult, was me referring TO EQUAL speed, In fact, Kefla was significantly Slower than UIO Goku, yet got close enough to dealing damage, Jiren was roughly on par, and Goku was only able to counter the attacks, yet, if there is such a vast difference between Goku's top AP, and Silver's defense, than ig solely on stats, Goku wins, even if it 1. doesn't fit his character to go all out against a weaker opponent 2. the mechanics of ultra instinct are primarily defensive

as well as for you saying I dont understand Ap, I don't quite, as they are a pretty relative system, and for the Cell, Buu, and Frieza arguements, what exactly makes them invalid? you never explained that, making your own refusal of them invalid



Notice how he takes pauses, and lets Jiren recover at times, notice how often, he's content to simply defend, when he easily could have taken the offensive, from a strategic standpoint, and understanding of how it changes once he gets enraged, YES, Goku was holding back, while he was calm, he played a more defensive role, as well as trading blows time to time




in this, you can see how much more effective he is, inflicting more and more damage, forcing Jiren more and more into a back corner, that brings us here, where his UI backfires due to over expenditure of energy, and stamina issues:

Anyways, Imma head to sleep, so I'll be back in the morning
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
The Regen would likely only handle physical strikes
Click to expand...
it will not, even the physicals are enough to vaporize Silver due sheer AP alone
The_Legendary_Vin said:
as well as for you saying I don't understand AP, what I don't understand, is why your going on about me not understanding AP, when I argue with logic and reasoning, rather than flat statistics, and for the Cell, Buu, and Frieza arguements, what exactly makes them invalid? you never explained that, making your own refusal of them invalid

[M
Click to expand...
Your ''logic and reasoning'' are not a good argument because you're under the argument as if they were close in stats, which is not the case, you argued about MUI only lasting few minutes, despite that a single punch can vaporize Silver due AP gap
The_Legendary_Vin said:
1. doesn't fit his character to go all out against a weaker opponent 2. the mechanics of ultra instinct are primarily defensive
Click to expand...
SBA puts them willing to kill, and MUI does not hold back in the fight at all, and the primarily defensive only applies to the Incomplete UI, not the masterized UI, which is the one being used here
The_Legendary_Vin said:
Notice how he takes pauses, and lets Jiren recover at times, notice how often, he's content to simply defend, when he easily could have taken the offensive, from a strategic standpoint, and understanding of how it changes once he gets enraged, YES, Goku was holding back, while he was calm, he played a more defensive role, as well as trading blows time to time
Click to expand...
In your own video, you can see Goku being bloodlusted while jumping with all of his strength against Jiren, I honestly don't see the argument here
The_Legendary_Vin said:
in this, you can see how much more effective he is, inflicting more and more damage, forcing Jiren more and more into a back corner, that brings us here, where his UI backfires due to over expenditure of energy, and stamina issues:
Click to expand...

he will only have these stamina issues when MUI ends, but that's assuming that the fight will last minutes, which just is not the case at all, the AP gap is enough to vaporize due breath alone, a single Kiai handles
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Silver can use TK to restrain Goku. However Goku has kiai, an invisible Ki blast he can shoot from his eyes, by powering up, a simple hand gesture, or by shouting. Silver wouldn’t be able to see it coming and will get incapacitated or killed in the process.
Click to expand...

Kiai in dragonball, is actually far more diverse, any time you see ki generated shockwaves, or blasts of air in dragonball, technically that is all considered Kiai, but I don't think it has lethal capablities then again, it might likely stagger silver

(Kiai has never been shown to do significant harm or kill someone, at least from the top of my head in dragonball)

Edit: I did some digging, and the only instance of it ever dealing any level of damage, that I found, beyond blasting people back, and likely bruises, is When Super Vegito used it, leaving a cut mark on Super Buu's face
 
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The_Legendary_Vin said:
Kiai in dragonball, is actually far more diverse, any time you see ki generated shockwaves, or blasts of air in dragonball, technically that is all considered Kiai, but I don't think it has lethal capablities then again, it might likely stagger silver

(Kiai has never been shown to do significant harm or kill someone, at least from the top of my head in dragonball)

Edit: I did some digging, and the only instance of it ever dealing any level of damage, that I found, beyond blasting people back, and likely bruises, is When Super Vegito used it, leaving a cut mark on Super Buu's face
Click to expand...
What about jiren's glare?
 
Hmm I think MUI Goku significantly downscales from 2-C (but it's not half 2-C cause of reasons I guess), so he should still be able to oneshot Silver with anything.

Edit: But everyone already knew that and I'm slow as usual apparently.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Super Forms have Immeasurable Lifting Strength
Click to expand...
Actually is that from Solaris or also something else?
ShakeResounding said:
If you look at the panel where they clash, the Power Rings scatter from them directly just as the Chaos Emeralds do. So no, the emeralds aren't even meters away. They're at the epicenter, just as the Power Rings are. The difference being the Power Rings didn't survive the Zone collapse.
Click to expand...
Hold on so what are you saying now that the emeralds were inside of them (and if you're not then how are you deducing that the emeralds are where the power rings are)? And if so but we don't see them scatter from them immediately, couldn't it just be that super forms took the blast and then they powered down, making it not a feat for the emeralds in the first place?

All in all I think Goku does unironically glare at Silver and atomizes him due to his state of mind and Silver seemingly not having any instant wincons.

Maybe we can argue Silver has temporal AoE instead of immeasurable LS (or both) and just kills Goku in the past with a single blast.
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
Well, if you watch The Jiren fight, he dragged it out, it's just his personality, he doesn't try to finish fights quickly, he wants to drag it out, so he can enjoy it, which tbh, is a MAJOR trope in Dragonball, Vegito has lost every time because his time limit, Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta had the same issue, Ultra Ego Vegeta against Granolah, Kaioken and False Super Saiyan in the Lord Slug Movie, Super Saiyan God against Beerus, and I can name numerous other times...it is very possible, with Goku, that he wants to enjoy the fight, and you'll see, that with Ultra Instinct, it happened in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, not to mention, Silver has his Regeneration, that would mean that Goku would have to use up more of his energy simply to keep dealing damage without it being recovered, which further cuts into his stamina, and Silver's force field would likewise cause major issues for Goku, and the Attack reflection as well, though, I dont know much about the sonic universe
Click to expand...
He didn't drag out the Jiren fight? He is well aware of how little time he has. Jiren was just that strong, strong enough to keep up with mui goku because he literally broke his limits and was getting stronger as he fought. Its never implied goku in ui drags out fights. Especially since he is aware that ui isn't a form he keeps for very long. And in the manga he actively goes for ending fights quickly.

Vegito has lost to Zamasu for the same reason, Zamasu was just getting stronger and more powerful to the point he literally ate a final kamehameha from him casually.

So yeah like I said before in the thread, Goku has almost every advantage. Power nulls any energy based attack, significant hand to hand combat advantage by virtue of being a master martial artist and having ui, analytical prediction to the point he can predict things coming like .5 seconds into the future and react accordingly, and then if he for whatever reason needs an ability, he mimics any ki based technique he has seen before. Not to mention apparently its been established within the thread goku has an overwhelming AP advantage.
 
ShakeResounding said:
How does one measure "1000x Low 2-C vs Downscaled 2-C" anyways? I mean, I get the latter is higher (maybe?) But is there any way to determine how much higher it is? I'm getting to the point where I despise Low 2-C for shit like this
Click to expand...
If there was a way to determine how much higher it is, we wouldn’t be having this issue and nobody would hate 2-C. So “you can’t reach it via finite multipliers” is the best I got for you. In DBS’ case I might be able to get something more quantifiable than that since we see the distance between macrocosms (really freaking small) but I doubt it’ll be accepted so Goku oneshots for now.

The bigger issue with Low 2-C is how you can’t really get below baseline here.
 
the difference between low 2-C and 2-C is basically infinite
being half is illogical since that would mean you are 2-C just downscaled because infinite/2 = infinite
half 2-C is a stupid concept that shouldn't have existed.

ShakeResounding said:
How does one measure "1000x Low 2-C vs Downscaled 2-C" anyways? I mean, I get the latter is higher (maybe?) But is there any way to determine how much higher it is? I'm getting to the point where I despise Low 2-C for shit like this
Click to expand...
it means nothing tbh other than upscaling and 1 shotting. being 1000x stronger than low 2-C is still low 2-C but since you're 1000x stronger going by wiki policy 1 shot rule is just 7.5x stronger so 1000x means you 1 shot.

half 2-C I don't even want to think about it. it shouldn't have existed in the first place
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
the difference between low 2-C and 2-C is basically infinite
being half is illogical since that would mean you are 2-C just downscaled because infinite/2 = infinite
half 2-C is a stupid concept that shouldn't have existed.


it means nothing tbh other than upscaling and 1 shotting. being 1000x stronger than low 2-C is still low 2-C but since you're 1000x stronger going by wiki policy 1 shot rule is just 7.5x stronger so 1000x means you 1 shot.

half 2-C I don't even want to think about it. it shouldn't have existed in the first place
Click to expand...
thats what im saying like what 😭
beerus and champa's clash was literally a 2-c feat, but instead of giving them both 2-c, they are given low 2-c, with low multi range?
even though its made clear low 2-c x2 doesn't equal 2-c?

anyways yeah i've learned to not think too hard on the reasoning this wiki gives its characters
 
Thank you both for clarifying.

With that out of the way, I'm almost certain this is a mismatch of some fashion. Silver doesn't have anything to deal with what is essentially an unquantifiable nigh-infinite AP difference because he isn't an Archie character that has any meaningful hax he employs in combat. He's gonna hold him in a TK grip to... What? Sit there and watch Goku age to death? That is, if he doesn't get hit with something and atomized.

I would say switch it to a different Archie character, but it either results in them getting stomped or them doing the stomping.
 
yeah if Silver can't have a wincon its a stomp.
and IIRC his only wincon is waiting goku out of MUI and finish him off. unless there is a scaling here where Goku is still half 2-C after losing MUI then its definitely a stomp.
 
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