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Anime
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Son Goku (DBS) VS Silver the Hedgehog (Archie)
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Oh so the emeralds aren’t inside them but near them (first I assumed it was a random emerald)? Didn’t they fight in high-atmosphere, across the planet or even in space?
Also it doesn’t really matter, like a few meters away from the clash is enough to significantly reduce the energy to baseline, see calcs for tier 8 people in exploding buildings.
ShakeResounding
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If you look at the panel where they clash, the Power Rings scatter from them directly just as the Chaos Emeralds do. So no, the emeralds aren't even meters away. They're at the epicenter, just as the Power Rings are. The difference being the Power Rings didn't survive the Zone collapse.
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Why is my vote not in the OP?
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Oh yeah,
Goku fra
Specially kiai GG
Goku fra
Specially kiai GG
The_Legendary_Vin
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Righty, so using Anime Goku, he doesn't have the drawback of getting weaker over time, however, he lacks many of Manga Goku's Hax (Manga Goku has Better stamina with UI, can tap into it at will, and has a Weaker version of Hakai, as well as being able to Form a sususano looking avatar around him, and harden portions of his body to attacks (Don't blame me, Blame Moro Saga)... HOWEVER, MUI Goku in the anime has yet to fully get the hang of Ultra Instinct, causing it a very valid possibility, that after a minute or two of fighting, he pretty much explodes, which, would revert him to base form, in a significantly weakened state, while he might match Silver in MUI, and even have a few disrespectful shonen style moments, ultimately, I think Silver would win, due to virtue of outlasting Goku, and finishing off his damaged base form.
Edit: The outcome was inevitable regardless of Manga Goku or Anime Goku anyways, I just wanted to know which points to make
Edit: The outcome was inevitable regardless of Manga Goku or Anime Goku anyways, I just wanted to know which points to make
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Yeah I just think these characters are so fast that 2 minutes would feel like years to them
EDIT: I also think the time he has within ui is enough to do anything we’ve discussed within the thread
EDIT: I also think the time he has within ui is enough to do anything we’ve discussed within the thread
The_Legendary_Vin
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Well, if you watch The Jiren fight, he dragged it out, it's just his personality, he doesn't try to finish fights quickly, he wants to drag it out, so he can enjoy it, which tbh, is a MAJOR trope in Dragonball, Vegito has lost every time because his time limit, Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta had the same issue, Ultra Ego Vegeta against Granolah, Kaioken and False Super Saiyan in the Lord Slug Movie, Super Saiyan God against Beerus, and I can name numerous other times...it is very possible, with Goku, that he wants to enjoy the fight, and you'll see, that with Ultra Instinct, it happened in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, not to mention, Silver has his Regeneration, that would mean that Goku would have to use up more of his energy simply to keep dealing damage without it being recovered, which further cuts into his stamina, and Silver's force field would likewise cause major issues for Goku, and the Attack reflection as well, though, I dont know much about the sonic universe
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Well, Silver FRA ig.
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u know that Goku one shots right?
The_Legendary_Vin
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Regeneration, attack reflection, and Speed makes it difficult, Goku has to charge up a Kamehameha to reach his full AP, which can take roughly 15 to 30 seconds, (This is a guessed charge up), usually he'd dodge attacks as he approached, as per his usual tactic, though this falls short against an equally fast opponent up close (Ultra Instinct isn't a perfect dodging technique, as shown against Jiren, or Kefla (Kefla Grazed him and burned some of his hair), not to mention, Goku one shots is kinda a major jump, since, as I said before, if it's an opponent close to him in power, he WANTS a fight, and he doesn't want it to end right away, this poll says he's willing to kill, yes, but he's a Saiyan, and he makes dumb choices for the sake of a fight (He had intent to Kill Cell and Moro, yet gave them a senzu bean, to make it a fair fight, he could have blown Jiren out of the Ring in MUI much quicker, yet chose to prolong the fight, against Frieza, he coulda ended it much faster, but he wanted to drag it out, even against Majin Buu, as a Super Saiyan 3, he coulda ended Buu right then and there, he was said to have enough power to overwhelm Fat Buu. Time and Time again, he has done this... it's just part of his character, and due to this, I don't think he'll intentionally one shot, he';; have a bit of fun and enjoy the fight, and sadly for Goku, while he may have other Forms, MUI is NOT the form to try doing this
Edit: Sorry if my post is hard to read, In my defense, it's 9 Pm, and I haven't had coffee yet
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Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating damage that would normally leave large dents and openings.
Not enough to save Silver
proof of it affecting characters with almost 2-C AP?
Speed is equal
You don't understand the AP gap at all, Goku downscales from 2-C dudes, Silver scales to Low 2-C, a single breath from Goku could vaporize Silver, and MUI does fights bloodlusted, and Silver is not close to power as Goku, you really need to check the AP gap, ur Cell, Moro, Majin Buu and Frieza arguments are invalid, as Moro is from manga and the rest wasnt against MUI at all, can u show MUI holding back in the fight at all? and really dude, this case is an one shot, they aren't close in strength, Goku is downscaling from 2-C
The_Legendary_Vin
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Righty, I see your argument, and it's valid, but Im trying to explain why it falls short
The Regen would likely only handle physical strikes
As for the attack reflection AP, Idfk, As I don't know anything about sonic stuff
The speed makes it difficult, was me referring TO EQUAL speed, In fact, Kefla was significantly Slower than UIO Goku, yet got close enough to dealing damage, Jiren was roughly on par, and Goku was only able to counter the attacks, yet, if there is such a vast difference between Goku's top AP, and Silver's defense, than ig solely on stats, Goku wins, even if it 1. doesn't fit his character to go all out against a weaker opponent 2. the mechanics of ultra instinct are primarily defensive
as well as for you saying I dont understand Ap, I don't quite, as they are a pretty relative system, and for the Cell, Buu, and Frieza arguements, what exactly makes them invalid? you never explained that, making your own refusal of them invalid
Notice how he takes pauses, and lets Jiren recover at times, notice how often, he's content to simply defend, when he easily could have taken the offensive, from a strategic standpoint, and understanding of how it changes once he gets enraged, YES, Goku was holding back, while he was calm, he played a more defensive role, as well as trading blows time to time
in this, you can see how much more effective he is, inflicting more and more damage, forcing Jiren more and more into a back corner, that brings us here, where his UI backfires due to over expenditure of energy, and stamina issues:
Anyways, Imma head to sleep, so I'll be back in the morning
The Regen would likely only handle physical strikes
As for the attack reflection AP, Idfk, As I don't know anything about sonic stuff
The speed makes it difficult, was me referring TO EQUAL speed, In fact, Kefla was significantly Slower than UIO Goku, yet got close enough to dealing damage, Jiren was roughly on par, and Goku was only able to counter the attacks, yet, if there is such a vast difference between Goku's top AP, and Silver's defense, than ig solely on stats, Goku wins, even if it 1. doesn't fit his character to go all out against a weaker opponent 2. the mechanics of ultra instinct are primarily defensive
as well as for you saying I dont understand Ap, I don't quite, as they are a pretty relative system, and for the Cell, Buu, and Frieza arguements, what exactly makes them invalid? you never explained that, making your own refusal of them invalid
Notice how he takes pauses, and lets Jiren recover at times, notice how often, he's content to simply defend, when he easily could have taken the offensive, from a strategic standpoint, and understanding of how it changes once he gets enraged, YES, Goku was holding back, while he was calm, he played a more defensive role, as well as trading blows time to time
in this, you can see how much more effective he is, inflicting more and more damage, forcing Jiren more and more into a back corner, that brings us here, where his UI backfires due to over expenditure of energy, and stamina issues:
Anyways, Imma head to sleep, so I'll be back in the morning
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it will not, even the physicals are enough to vaporize Silver due sheer AP alone
Your ''logic and reasoning'' are not a good argument because you're under the argument as if they were close in stats, which is not the case, you argued about MUI only lasting few minutes, despite that a single punch can vaporize Silver due AP gap
SBA puts them willing to kill, and MUI does not hold back in the fight at all, and the primarily defensive only applies to the Incomplete UI, not the masterized UI, which is the one being used here
In your own video, you can see Goku being bloodlusted while jumping with all of his strength against Jiren, I honestly don't see the argument here
he will only have these stamina issues when MUI ends, but that's assuming that the fight will last minutes, which just is not the case at all, the AP gap is enough to vaporize due breath alone, a single Kiai handles
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The_Legendary_Vin
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Well, tis why I specialize in the Manga, the anime tends to ruin everything it touches... anyways, Im not impossible to convice, and I'll give you this Win
The_Legendary_Vin
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH
One person falls, only for another to take their place!
One person falls, only for another to take their place!
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Goku FRA
The_Legendary_Vin
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Kiai in dragonball, is actually far more diverse, any time you see ki generated shockwaves, or blasts of air in dragonball, technically that is all considered Kiai, but I don't think it has lethal capablities then again, it might likely stagger silver
(Kiai has never been shown to do significant harm or kill someone, at least from the top of my head in dragonball)
Edit: I did some digging, and the only instance of it ever dealing any level of damage, that I found, beyond blasting people back, and likely bruises, is When Super Vegito used it, leaving a cut mark on Super Buu's face
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What about jiren's glare?
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Hmm I think MUI Goku significantly downscales from 2-C (but it's not half 2-C cause of reasons I guess), so he should still be able to oneshot Silver with anything.
Edit:But everyone already knew that and I'm slow as usual apparently.
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Silver can't crush him.
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Actually is that from Solaris or also something else?
Hold on so what are you saying now that the emeralds were inside of them (and if you're not then how are you deducing that the emeralds are where the power rings are)? And if so but we don't see them scatter from them immediately, couldn't it just be that super forms took the blast and then they powered down, making it not a feat for the emeralds in the first place?
All in all I think Goku does unironically glare at Silver and atomizes him due to his state of mind and Silver seemingly not having any instant wincons.
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He didn't drag out the Jiren fight? He is well aware of how little time he has. Jiren was just that strong, strong enough to keep up with mui goku because he literally broke his limits and was getting stronger as he fought. Its never implied goku in ui drags out fights. Especially since he is aware that ui isn't a form he keeps for very long. And in the manga he actively goes for ending fights quickly.
Vegito has lost to Zamasu for the same reason, Zamasu was just getting stronger and more powerful to the point he literally ate a final kamehameha from him casually.
So yeah like I said before in the thread, Goku has almost every advantage. Power nulls any energy based attack, significant hand to hand combat advantage by virtue of being a master martial artist and having ui, analytical prediction to the point he can predict things coming like .5 seconds into the future and react accordingly, and then if he for whatever reason needs an ability, he mimics any ki based technique he has seen before. Not to mention apparently its been established within the thread goku has an overwhelming AP advantage.
ShakeResounding
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How does one measure "1000x Low 2-C vs Downscaled 2-C" anyways? I mean, I get the latter is higher (maybe?) But is there any way to determine how much higher it is? I'm getting to the point where I despise Low 2-C for shit like this
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If there was a way to determine how much higher it is, we wouldn’t be having this issue and nobody would hate 2-C. So “you can’t reach it via finite multipliers” is the best I got for you. In DBS’ case I might be able to get something more quantifiable than that since we see the distance between macrocosms (really freaking small) but I doubt it’ll be accepted so Goku oneshots for now.
The bigger issue with Low 2-C is how you can’t really get below baseline here.
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the difference between low 2-C and 2-C is basically infinite
being half is illogical since that would mean you are 2-C just downscaled because infinite/2 = infinite
half 2-C is a stupid concept that shouldn't have existed.
half 2-C I don't even want to think about it. it shouldn't have existed in the first place
being half is illogical since that would mean you are 2-C just downscaled because infinite/2 = infinite
half 2-C is a stupid concept that shouldn't have existed.
it means nothing tbh other than upscaling and 1 shotting. being 1000x stronger than low 2-C is still low 2-C but since you're 1000x stronger going by wiki policy 1 shot rule is just 7.5x stronger so 1000x means you 1 shot.
half 2-C I don't even want to think about it. it shouldn't have existed in the first place
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Just think Goku is 2-C, so the AP difference is basically infinite.
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thats what im saying like what
beerus and champa's clash was literally a 2-c feat, but instead of giving them both 2-c, they are given low 2-c, with low multi range?
even though its made clear low 2-c x2 doesn't equal 2-c?
anyways yeah i've learned to not think too hard on the reasoning this wiki gives its characters
ShakeResounding
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Thank you both for clarifying.
With that out of the way, I'm almost certain this is a mismatch of some fashion. Silver doesn't have anything to deal with what is essentially an unquantifiable nigh-infinite AP difference because he isn't an Archie character that has any meaningful hax he employs in combat. He's gonna hold him in a TK grip to... What? Sit there and watch Goku age to death? That is, if he doesn't get hit with something and atomized.
I would say switch it to a different Archie character, but it either results in them getting stomped or them doing the stomping.
With that out of the way, I'm almost certain this is a mismatch of some fashion. Silver doesn't have anything to deal with what is essentially an unquantifiable nigh-infinite AP difference because he isn't an Archie character that has any meaningful hax he employs in combat. He's gonna hold him in a TK grip to... What? Sit there and watch Goku age to death? That is, if he doesn't get hit with something and atomized.
I would say switch it to a different Archie character, but it either results in them getting stomped or them doing the stomping.
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I mean we could always equalize AP, but then again I dunno if that would be enough
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we cant do that
ShakeResounding
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That'd be more than enough, but that isn't allowed unless you don't want the match being added. That's more of a Fun and Games Board thing
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yeah if Silver can't have a wincon its a stomp.
and IIRC his only wincon is waiting goku out of MUI and finish him off. unless there is a scaling here where Goku is still half 2-C after losing MUI then its definitely a stomp.
and IIRC his only wincon is waiting goku out of MUI and finish him off. unless there is a scaling here where Goku is still half 2-C after losing MUI then its definitely a stomp.
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We can, it just won’t get added to the profile.
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goku fra
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It isnt
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how so?
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