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There's no proof that 17 was full power when he one-shot Trunks afaik. Trunks outright says Future #17 and #18 are far weaker than their main timeline selves. We should use his statement and avoid assumptions.
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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
- Start date
- Status
GodlyCharmander
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Piccolo implied Vegeta might be, which is at least a "comparable to" in my book
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Android 18 used her full power right away when battling Vegeta when both powered up, and Android 17 did the same with PiccoloThere's no proof that 17 was full power when he one-shot Trunks afaik. Trunks outright says Future #17 and #18 are far weaker than their main timeline selves. We should use his statement and avoid assumptions.
The Androids in general in this timeline want to end things rather quickly, which is supported by DBS too with 17 during the ToP
Though I can agree with that statement
Gilad_Hyperstar
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He said it when Goku was sick and was weakening by the virus, so we can't assume that would apply to the healthy Goku as well, especially since he only really trained at the time, rather than fight with 100% of his power given that Piccolo and Gohan are much weaker than him
However Goku and Vegeta should likely be comparable to each other in the Android Saga
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Shortly before that, he actually made a statement similar to the one above as well. This at least suggests the main timeline ones surpassed their future counterparts to a significant degree. We should take that into account instead of just discarding Trunks' statements and assuming they are just equally strong.
GodlyCharmander
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This... wouldn't make any sense. Piccolo just saw Goku get rolled by the Androids, then proceeded to watch Vegeta toy with 19. If he was using Heart Virus Goku as a basis (which he saw for the first time there), his statement would be very redundant.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yeah that seems good
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What does the androids being weaker in the future mean for the scaling? more ">"?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Goku was sick. You forget that Goku was sick the entire time while fighting the Androids, so Piccolo was judging the performance of that Goku, not a healthy Android Saga Goku.
Also, Goku stomped Android 19 before his condition got worse
GodlyCharmander
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Why would Piccolo not use the information he got from training alongside Goku for three years instead of the performance from one fight in a condition he just learned was affecting him? Piccolo stated Vegeta could have surpassed "even" Goku, this statement would serve zero purposes or had zero impact if he was referring to Goku on his death bed.
Also "could have" wouldn't be a part of the statement, because no shit Vegeta SSJ is stronger than Sick Goku, the viewer isn't blind.
The implication is that, Vegeta was stronger than Goku was at the time.
Again, stop treating characters as real people. This line was written with a clear purpose.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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I meant Goku during his fight with Android 19, not after that. And considering Piccolo was comparing Goku's performance to Vegeta's then he definitely referred to this Goku
Also "could have" doesn't equal "definitely has" so we can't be sure, especially since Goku was training all that time with Gohan and Piccolo who are weaker than him, so there is no reason for Goku to use his full power like if he was in an actual battle
What does that have to do with anything?
GodlyCharmander
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Why "definitely"? Where did you take this from? Stop treating assumptions as facts.
"Vegeta is a combat genius, it's possible he has... even surpassed Goku"
Oh yeah, Piccolo was referring to the weaker SSJ Goku in the battle earlier, and not Goku in general, yes, yes, this makes so much sense. Of course that's how Akira wrote it.
Not.
This was written to have impact, to be shocking, Piccolo stated Goku should be far stronger in his SSJ form, and then claimed Vegeta may have surpassed him. There is no reason to believe this line only applies to the much weaker Goku. You don't surpass someone by comparing yourself to a sick or weakened version of said person, this makes NO SENSE.
That's what I said in my first comment about this comparison. Vegeta may have surpassed Goku, therefore he should be at least comparable.
Toriyama made crystal clear that Piccolo KNOWS how strong Super Saiyan Goku should be at that time
Twice.
"He wouldn't use his full power in training" isn't an argument, if the characters was given the knowledge, then he knows.
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- Thread starter
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I agree with pokemon man, Piccolo's statement clearly states that Vegeta is at least equal to and most likely greater than Goku. It doesn't impact the android scaling at all but I guess it can be used as a justification.
GodlyCharmander
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Don't ever refer to me as that or I'll come to yo' house
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Few questions first.
Future 17 = 2x Future Gohan
Present 17 > Present Goku > Future Goku > Future Gohan
I'm not getting how you're combining these two chains.
I'll get to the other stuff later.
What is the reason for SSJ Trunks being 2x stronger here?
Present Goku and Vegeta trained a lot before the Androids showed up, so Present Goku should be comfortably a lot stronger than Future Goku as Future Gohan remembers him. Present Androids were also stated to be stronger than Future Android iirc. I don't understand this scaling between Present Goku and Future 17.
Future 17 = 2x Future Gohan
Present 17 > Present Goku > Future Goku > Future Gohan
I'm not getting how you're combining these two chains.
I'll get to the other stuff later.
GodlyCharmander
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Vegeta is baseline planet, and equal to Goku with Kaioken. Using the multipliers, Kaioken x4 Saiyan Saga Goku would be 79 Zettatons with a PL of 32.000
Ginyu Force's power levels would be higher than that
Vizer04
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Based on what?
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they're the next villains.
GodlyCharmander
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Vegeta's durability is 79 Zettatons because he tanked KKx4 Kamehameha. Ginyu Force can **** up a stronger version of him, and Gohan, who had a equal power level to Saiyan Saga Vegeta at the time
Vizer04
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Then Monster Zarbon should be 79 Zettatons as well since he trashed Post-Zenkai Vegeta with ease
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I am not sure, I just when off of dark dagon man's blog so ask him. The justification is that he was stronger than cold and frieza's combined power, though I don't know if there's a scan for that, I'll read the book to look for a scan like that.
Future trunks is stated weaker than Future Gohan, this same future trunks is weaker than yardrat Goku and future Goku should be above that before he died, and present goku during that same time period should be above that. So future Trunks < Yardrat Goku, Future Trunks < future Gohan, Yardrat Goku < Future Goku < Present Goku, future Gohan < future Goku. Future Gohan is 50% of future 17's power and present 17 is stronger than that, 18 is comparable and likewise for vegeta but a little weaker, present Goku scales to Vegeta. So future Gohan < future 17 (2x) < present 17. present Goku =< present Vegeta < present 18 ~ present 17. So you're right I shouldn't combine them both but we can figure out who scales to which value.
Now to simplify this confusing mess. Future Trunks < Future Gohan < Future Goku <<< Present Goku =< Vegeta < present #18 ~ present #17 > future #17/#18. So trunks, gohan and future Goku as well as yardrat goku scale to the 489 tenaton value, but the present and future androids as well as present Goku and vegeta scale to 978 tenatons.
Vegeta shouldn't scale to the kaioken 4x kamehameha, that makes no sense as kaioken 3x Goku destroyed him.
GodlyCharmander
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It is what it is, the man ate that Kamehameha for breakfast.
Vizer04
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Then the Ginyu Force has no reason to scale to 70 Zettatons.
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Ginyu scales since he has a power level of 120000 and so does goku, recoome burter and jeice I don't know, recoom shat on vegeta who had a power level of 30,000 not quite 32000, so maybe they should. Nail had a power level of 42,000 and frieza considers him an elite like the ginyu force, and his profile scales him >= recoome/ burter/ jeice. So I think it's fine if they scale to 70 zettatons. But this is supposed to be mainly a android saga and buu saga thread not namek saga but whatever let's revise all of dragon ball Z.
Vizer04
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We have no reason to assume they're any higher than 32,000 since there is not official power levels for those specific characters afaik
Vizer04
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We should either downgrade the Ginyu Force to 59.44 Zettatons or upgrade Monster Zarbon to 79.28 Zettatons, whichever you deem more accurate.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Why does Vegeta even scales to 79.28 Zettatons? The Kamehameha easily overpowered him and he was very damaged after the attack
By the same logic you can scale Goku's durability to Vegeta's AP because Goku continued to fight even after Vegeta stomped him without Kaioken (and overpowered Goku while he had Base Kaioken)
By the same logic you can scale Goku's durability to Vegeta's AP because Goku continued to fight even after Vegeta stomped him without Kaioken (and overpowered Goku while he had Base Kaioken)
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DDM says that this is due to Trunks being stronger than the combined might of King Cold and Frieza, though I've yet to find a statement for that.
Vizer04
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I'm leaning towards the first option since, unlike Zarbon, the Ginyu Force have no official power levels and they could very well be below 32,000 while Zarbon can't possibly be stronger than KKx4 Goku.
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Scaling to 17 and 18 like Gilad man explained before.
Neither have I, he just stomped them both but there was no statement or anything saying that he was stronger than both of them combined.
Vizer04
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But they are not comparable to 17 and 18... at all.
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Gilad man had this to say.
And it was also said that with Goku's help, they could've beaten the androids. Also, the #18 vegeta fought should be stronger than the future androids who are the ones who scale to 2x future gohan.
Vizer04
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The present Androids don't hold back, that's all
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That was debunked later. Here it is stated several times that Goku wouldn't make a win as well.
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Nullflowerblush
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That was debunked later. Here it is stated several times that Goku wouldn't make a win as well.
Low 2C Goku confirmed?????
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In all seriousness, I'm not entirely sure who disagrees. I think more staff approval should work
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