-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision
- Thread starter Stefano4444
- Start date
- 3,759
- 1,620
The only outlier I see is only the universe statement especially as she has far more higher feats.
- 1,219
- 1,041
Seriously, saying Perpetua is only Universe level, and that every other feat is just "outliers" and we only do that to overrate comic book characters (which is hilarious if you know how stingy this site is about upgrading Comic Book Characters LOL) sounds like something a spite thread on Spacebattles would say about us. And even then, i don't think Spacebattles downgrades Mxyzptlk to Sub Universal level.
- 10,688
- 6,348
This whole thread is getting kinda derailed. We should focus in on the key stuff.
- 177,706
- 90,758
@Deagonx @Jared1111
Can each of you write a post detailing what solutions that you wish to use here, and stop with the wall of text back and forths, please?
Anyway, to answer @Firestorm808 , I think that Kerfuffles2 makes sense above. We should not scale Pre-Crisis Green Lanterns to 2-A with no displayed feats of their own of that scale. What are their most impressive feats that we have actually been visibly shown? Also, aren't the Green Lantern feats as a group far more impressive than the ones they have displayed on their own?
I would also appreciate if Firestorm tries to figure out how it would be best to apply these changes in a proper manner to the relevant profile pages.
Can each of you write a post detailing what solutions that you wish to use here, and stop with the wall of text back and forths, please?
Anyway, to answer @Firestorm808 , I think that Kerfuffles2 makes sense above. We should not scale Pre-Crisis Green Lanterns to 2-A with no displayed feats of their own of that scale. What are their most impressive feats that we have actually been visibly shown? Also, aren't the Green Lantern feats as a group far more impressive than the ones they have displayed on their own?
I would also appreciate if Firestorm tries to figure out how it would be best to apply these changes in a proper manner to the relevant profile pages.
- 1,219
- 1,041
I apologize, I was only using the walls of text because i wanted to address each of his points, as they pertain to how we upgrade these characters. He's bringing up points i do want to address because his stance contradicts these upgrades.
That and i absolutely agree, Green Lanterns are shown to be significantly more powerful together than alone, substantially so. Heck, in the Maaldor story he was completely unaffected by the powers of singular green lanterns and they had to give their powers to Arkkis in order to even damage him. So no, Hal wouldn't scale Pre-Crisis, i still do believe his Low 2-C, 2-C rating should be sufficient through their own feats.
I was only hostile because he accused us of overplaying Comic Book Characters in the cases of Perpetua and Mxyzptlk, and found that funny because of how often we don't do that. He's arguing that a 5D character, one of the most prevalent higher dimensional characters in fiction, is somehow routinely Sub Universal, which contradicts literally everything we know about how dimensional tiering works. Its... perplexing, but i wont bring up the downplay again don't worry.
- 1,219
- 1,041
But in response to how i feel, a 2-C, possibly 2-A rating for Superman sounds completely acceptable and I'm also fine for a lower 3-B - Low 2-C rating for his earlier Silver Age/Early Bronze Age counterpart as he has a decent number of feats in that category.
Maaldor, Mordru, Time Trapper, Dr. Fate, Darkseid, Monitor, Spectre, and Anti Monitor should all scale 2-A because they are often shown to be stronger than Superman at least, and have their own 2-A feats. Especially since Time Trapper was able to redirect that 2-A energy quite easily, and he's comparable to Dr. Fate, Mordru, and Maaldor. Darkseid being far stronger than them even while weakened, and Monitor and Anti Monitor being far stronger than either of them at peak power (maybe a 2-C key for weakened Monitor). Supergirl would be the same tier as Superman however.
Maaldor, Mordru, Time Trapper, Dr. Fate, Darkseid, Monitor, Spectre, and Anti Monitor should all scale 2-A because they are often shown to be stronger than Superman at least, and have their own 2-A feats. Especially since Time Trapper was able to redirect that 2-A energy quite easily, and he's comparable to Dr. Fate, Mordru, and Maaldor. Darkseid being far stronger than them even while weakened, and Monitor and Anti Monitor being far stronger than either of them at peak power (maybe a 2-C key for weakened Monitor). Supergirl would be the same tier as Superman however.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,821
- 6,063
- Thread starter
- #251
Yeah you're right, anyway i already say my take about the matter, have Pre-Crisis at 2-C with 2-A as possibly.
And for which characters should scale to 2-A, i can concede about Hal Jordan not scaling to 2-A along with Superboy-Prime and maybe Supergirl (assuming destroy AM's armor still still count as a 2-C feat).
- 10,688
- 6,348
I'd argue Supergirl and Power Girl still scale because they're both considered only a little weaker than Superman, contributed to fighting AM, and Power Giirl herself helped defeat Maaldor.
@Antvasima Five Lanterns (Arisia, Katma, Ch'p, Arkkis, and Tomar-Re) combined their powers and became almost equal to Maaldor. That's two 2-A feats on a smalller scale then Superman, so I think them having a 2-A peak key is fine, but it shoud be noted as being lesser then Superman and Kryptonians.
As for their non-peak key, they have some planetary stuff (no name Lanterns can move planets wth ease, Sinestro destroyed planets iirc),
@Antvasima Five Lanterns (Arisia, Katma, Ch'p, Arkkis, and Tomar-Re) combined their powers and became almost equal to Maaldor. That's two 2-A feats on a smalller scale then Superman, so I think them having a 2-A peak key is fine, but it shoud be noted as being lesser then Superman and Kryptonians.
As for their non-peak key, they have some planetary stuff (no name Lanterns can move planets wth ease, Sinestro destroyed planets iirc),
- 7,915
- 15,096
He's never demonstrated the ability to. Everything else he ever destroyed was far far smaller than the multiverse.
If you read the wiki standards, significantly affect is explicitly defined as something that is comparable to destruction/creation in scope, not just anything that can be called significant.
The only person who said he was erasing "everything in existence" was Jarro, and setting aside how vague a statement that is, he was wrong, as there's parts of existence that Mxy can't even reach, let alone destroy. I am aware of the Emperor Joker storyline, but thats one storyline from 20 years ago across 80 years of comics. If that's not outlier material I'm not sure what is.
Spacebattles is a very good site, so I'll take that as a compliment. Perpetua was amped, and this was explained overtly in the comic. She received Connective Energy from the Presence/Source to create the multiverse, and had an amp when fighting TDK. Those are her only feats above universal, and they don't represent her baseline power.
Essentially I never had a strong disagreement with the solutions provided. I was called to the thread and wanted to contribute, but it doesn't feel right to me to say "Yes, I agree the Jaxon feat is 2-C" and leave it at that. For the sake of personal integrity I need to clarify that I have my reservations about this aspect of the system, but, within the framework provided, I agree it meets the criteria. I don't know what's so wrong about that.
Anyways, I won't delve into the back and forth anymore, I don't think we're getting anywhere and my opinion on the matter is clear.
Overall, I think 2-A peak, 2-C fits reasonably well, though I lean towards Confluctor's opinion that we are sometimes making large jumps based on very few feats.
- 177,706
- 90,758
Okay. Thank you. It seems like we have reached an agreement then, but @Firestorm808 still needs to try to figure out how and if we should apply these changes to the Anti-Monitor, Monitor, and Doctor Fate.
- 1,219
- 1,041
Well... yeah, everything else he dealt with was smaller than the Multiverse because he... destroyed the Multiverse. Theres really not more that he could destroy in story.
Also technically not right, since he did absorb the entirety of the Anti Matter Universe at the end of the story, which should already encompass the entire DC Multiverse in the first place.
Again, don't really know how your standards are set if smashing two entire timelines together, to a point where if it wasn't fixed, they would've destroyed themselves isn't "significant"
Also no, merging timelines can also be considered Tier 2, it happens with the Time Trapper.
There being parts of existence that Mxy can't reach doesn't mean that he's not Universal, WTF? He'd a 5D at worst being in an Infinite Dimensional at best Multiverse and beyond, of course, there are places where he cannot reach or battles he can't win. That doesn't somehow mean he's not baseline 5D.
Fine by me, i feel like I've made my point clear that a lot of your grievances don't fit with our system, or you missed some details (like you dropping the Harbinger and Monitor point after a while) and that by our own standards the feats can't really be seen as anything but 2-A, especially the Jaxon and Maaldor feats. I also think that Anti Monitor and Monitor being downgraded to 2-A just because of Supergirl, who arguably isn't even a 2-C character at all, despite scaling higher than guys like Darkseid (who is already above the 2-A Time Trapper) is unfair.
And again, we made those same large jumps between characters based on ONE feat, so I don't see why 2-4 solid 2-A feats are just outright ignored. Especially since its most consistent
Also yeah, i meant to say Doctor Fate scales to the Time Trapper, who redirected 2-A energy and is stated to destroy all of time across the Multiverse himself if he wanted to. Mordru is tougher usually, without Nabu assisting Fate. Dr. Fate is at minimum superior, though it depends on how much, to Superman.
- 7,915
- 15,096
Okay, let me know if I can help out.
- 177,706
- 90,758
What is the available evidence for Pre-Crisis Doctor Fate scaling to the Time Trapper and Superman?
- 1,425
- 1,235
Similarly to what Jared said this is a false analogy. The spirit Bomb is literally an attack that combines the power of multiple users. The Anti Matter wave is an attack produced with the power of only the Anti Monitor. You can’t compare the two.
Did I not just show you a scan of Mxy unimagining reality down to the white page?
This is a blatant lie. Perpetua was not amped when she fought TDK. She literally blew all her power out during an off panel confrontation with Wonder Woman and needed to be funneled psychic energy from tuning forks to make up for it.
- 177,706
- 90,758
You are free to help Firestorm808 if you wish.
- 1,219
- 1,041
Do you mind if I help out too?
- 177,706
- 90,758
I think that we have reached an agreement at least.
I still need some clarifications about Pre-Crisis Doctor Fate though.
- 9,136
- 9,991
I am fine with the compromise for Bronze Age Superman.
- 34
- 59
This probably isn't that relevant since to my knowledge it was never brought up in any of Doctor Fate's pre-Crisis appearances, but in the Secret Society of Super-Villains series, the Wizard's magic powers begin to dwindle on Earth-One due to a fundamental shift in the fabric of reality that's less conducive to mystical effects. The only pre-Crisis encounter between Doctor Fate and Mordru that I know of was the JLA, JSA, and LSH team-up from Justice League of America #147-148, where the setting was the 30th century of Earth-One, so if we're ever so slightly dishonest, any weakness Doctor Fate (a Lord of Order) had before Mordru (who was not established as a Lord of Chaos until the post-Crisis Amethyst miniseries) could be explained away that he was less effective away from Earth-Two.
Edit: Brief checking also shows that Mordru was only at half-power in JLA #147-148, and he still massively outclasses Doctor Fate.
- 34
- 59
I'm not the best guy to answer since my knowledge is pretty much limited to whatever I remember from appearances in the Superman titles, but in Justice League of America #37, Doctor Fate did give a good fight to some gangster that the evil Johnny Thunder of Earth-One substituted into Superman's place in reality (with powers and all). However, this was explicitly on account of Kryptonians' special weakness to magic. In World's Finest #208, it's only using magical chains summoned by Doctor Fate that Superman can stop the tectonic plates of Earth-Two from fusing together and killing everybody. (It's implied that his then-recent depowering from Superman #233-242 is responsible for this incapacity to manipulate the tectonic plates with brute strength.)
- 1,219
- 1,041
That same issue does state that Dr Fate was able to approximate Superman's powers without much issue. But this was also clearly within the Silver Age of comics, and Superman hadn't gotten as strong as he would during the Later Bronze Age (Kerfuffles is correct about the early Bronze Age getting significantly depowered, but that went away the closer you got to the 70s and 80s.)
Also, another character we might add a page/key for is Martian Manhunter, since once Superman fought him in a dazed rage and not only did Martian Manhunter cause him to bleed, but Superman admitted they could fight for a century.
Also i don't know if i forgot to mention the Spectre, since when he's at his best he clearly outstrips Superman, even the Later Bronze Age one without question. The only reason its stated he couldn't defeat the Anti Monitor was because of an inbalance of Magic during the Crisis, by the time he fought the Dawn of Creation AM (who not only was juiced by the entirety of the Anti Matter Universe/Multiverse, but also the heroes themselves) he did need assistance against a dude with arguably 2x Multiversal power, and it's implied he could've stopped him at full power in a later story.
- 10,484
- 4,693
Fate should get a varies with 2-A at peak, depending on how much magic he is drawing and the threat at hand.
- 10,688
- 6,348
Since this is wrapping up, I can go ahead and make a page for Maaldor for scaling purposes. Would be be 2-C to 2-A, or solidly 2-A?
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,821
- 6,063
- Thread starter
- #275
Only 2-C, possibly 2-A in his physical form via scaling from Pre-Crisis Supes.
Fully 2-A in his abstract form via his multiverse collapse feat that we mention before.
- 16,279
- 24,999
In All-Star Squadron #27 Doctor Fate was able to battle The Spectre
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,821
- 6,063
- Thread starter
- #277
Superman (Pre-Crisis)
Supergirl (Pre-Crisis)
Superboy-Prime
Anti-Monitor
Darkseid
The Monitor
Ion
Nekron
Doctor Fate (Classic)
Time Trapper
Highfather
Captain Atom (Post-Crisis)
Parallax
The Butcher (DC Comics)
The Spectre
Trigon (Post-Crisis)
The World Forger
Mongul (Pre-Crisis)
Superman (Original)
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)
Sodam Yat
The Infinite Man
Mordru
Thaal Sinestro (Post-Crisis)
Orion
This should be all the characters i find who should scale to Pre-Crisis Superman, either to only his 2-C or both his 2-C and 2-A.
Fortunately many of this profiles don't necessary need major change due of either have their own 2-C/2-A feats or that they indirectly scale to Pre-Crisis Superman.
Supergirl (Pre-Crisis)
Superboy-Prime
Anti-Monitor
Darkseid
The Monitor
Ion
Nekron
Doctor Fate (Classic)
Time Trapper
Highfather
Captain Atom (Post-Crisis)
Parallax
The Butcher (DC Comics)
The Spectre
Trigon (Post-Crisis)
The World Forger
Mongul (Pre-Crisis)
Superman (Original)
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)
Sodam Yat
The Infinite Man
Mordru
Thaal Sinestro (Post-Crisis)
Orion
This should be all the characters i find who should scale to Pre-Crisis Superman, either to only his 2-C or both his 2-C and 2-A.
Fortunately many of this profiles don't necessary need major change due of either have their own 2-C/2-A feats or that they indirectly scale to Pre-Crisis Superman.
Last edited:
- 3,275
- 1,100
Since we are onto discussing other characters now, I think I should bring up the fact that large country Flash is absolutely silly, and that both he and Thawne have plenty of examples of being herald.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,821
- 6,063
- Thread starter
- #279
True i'm actually forgot that Barry Allen had his own Pre-Crisis profile.
Barry Allen (Pre-Crisis)
Not sure if he had any feats involving other Pre-Crisis characters, but i guess we can just use the destruction of the Anti-Matter Cannon for justify him be at least 2-C.
By the way, since Pre-Crisis Flash has his own separated profile, wouldn't be better if we do the same with Hal Jordan?
- 10,688
- 6,348
Almost done with my Power Girl revision, since this seems concluded, could I post that when I'm done?
