Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision

[Teezar]

I'm not disagreeing with that, per se, I'm saying that AM doesn't scale to the power of the Antimatter-Wave in combat. He released a wave that might be 2-A, but he doesn't have that much power that he can simply unleash on anyone who he fights.

Tbh I don't understand are you saying his 2A but in combat his 2C?

 

[Teezar]

Also (Sorry for the double post) but in relation to the size of the Dark Multiverse, it has also been confirmed to be infinite in size So arguments about the Dark Multiverse being smaller can also be debunked. The size and scope of the DC Multiverses are also ever-expanding to the characters, with more and more being revealed as time goes on. This shows that recent examples of the infinite size don't contradict the story, only the character's knowledge.

Plus, the Source Wall being the "edge" of the Universe (even though its also been described as the barrier of the Multiverse itself) DC shows that things with infinite size can have boundaries as well, Infinite doesn't always mean all encompassing and never ending in DC.

I thought its stated the multiverse is like a drop of water or something in a fishbowl in an ocean compared to the.dark multiverse.
1 by aquaman and another by narration.

 

[Jared1111]

ALSO, thanks to Maverick for bringing this to me, but there was another statement of a never ending DC Universe in the Silver Age, so it isn’t a retcon.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/629102062633746442/895026532257525770/image0.jpg

 

[Deagonx]

It wasn't an assumption, you kept bringing up the argument that the Anti-Monitor power didn't come from him,

No I didn't. In fact, the first time you said this I responded to it directly and said that wasn't my point. Then you said it was my point later, and I said it wasn't my point. Here we are for a third time, with you asserting that you know what my point was better than I do. My point wasn't that the wave didn't come from him. Read my comment again:

It's not that he didn't create the wave per se, (though the explanation that he converted Antimatter into Energy doesn't strongly support a rating rather than a transmutation feat), it's that creating a giant wave that can destroy infinite universes doesn't mean anyone who fights and beats you needs to be 2-A to do so. The destruction of the universes was a function of the fact that anti-matter destroys positive matter, so he set off a chain reaction of anti-matter destroying positive matter.

Because he specifically used devices like the Tuning Fork and his base to create a dimension he knew would be beyond the AM's reach? Thats why the AM also had to create a specific weapon to counteract that weapon?

I am aware. I read it the first time you said it. The question is how he was able to create a dimension outside of AM's reach at all, with tuning forks, if Anti-Monitor is 2-A.

Do you understand that how Space-Time Continuum works in DC ain't the same as in real life? We don't even really understand how Space-Time absolutely works in real life.

Okay, you need to go back and re-read the discussion. Somewhere along the way you have forgotten why spacetime continuums were brought up in the first place. Whatever vague point you're trying to make here is not relevant.

The force to move an object like the Moon or the Earth outside of their orbit can be far greater than the energy to destroy them.

It could be. It could also not be. You cannot assume. That's literally the entire point. You cannot assume moving something means you can destroy it. By the way, the reason it would take more energy is because you're fighting against the gravity of the sun. Not because of anything intrinsic to the difficulty in moving Earth. This is really just saying "the force it would take to remove Earth from the gravitational orbit of the sun is enough to also destroy Earth." This doesn't mean that moving a universe means you're able to destroy it, there's no comparison here.

Then you agree... then what are you complaining about?

I'm not saying Monitor and AM have different levels of power. I am asking you to think critically about the mechanism of universe destruction and explain how it applies to Anti-Monitors durability or the level of damage he can deal in 1 on 1 combat. You've basically refused to engage with the fact that the Anti Matter wave doesn't mean AM is for all intents and purposes 2-A in a 1v1 fight, because the AM wave worked in a very specific way.

"It's literally a figure of speech" How?

Arguing that it's somehow a figure of speech is ludicrous at best, and downplay at worst, I'm sorry.

I explained that in the comment you replied to. Do you know what a simile is? Saying "X is like Y" is a simile, which is a figure of speech. If he were speaking literally, saying something was "like the big bang" would mean that a big bang is occurring, literally. The fact that he was drawing a non-literal comparison makes it a simile, which is a figure of speech.

He says he must have been because he has a detailed history of how a Universe works

That is not what "must have been" means in English. It indicates a hypothesis, not a statement of prior knowledge.

Also wait, the text doesn't even imply that it was Brainiac was the one saying it, it was just a narrative caption that was describing what was happening in the story. So that's not even correct... it was just the literal narration saying the Universe was infinite.

It says "Brainiac thinks." This is a description of a thought Brainiac had.

What do you mean it isn't a response... I told you the context of the issue and how Spectre and Phantom Stranger were talking about Universes in the context.

Yes, you told me those things, but none of what you said indicates that "infinite realms" refers to infinite space within the universes. What is your basis for saying that?

Most characters that have ever stated the Multiverse or Universe were limited weren't given complete knowledge of all existence, or were presented as not being right. DC again points out that the Multiverses are Infinite in size in narration and through direct author intent. Thats more substantial than what any character outside of the higher cosmics could really know.

Okay, I am asking which characters specifically? I'm sure there are many out there who do not have the knowledge to say that, I am asking within the context of the evidence that I have provided, what character statement are you questioning specifically?

Then why else would you assume I had a temper tantrum?

Tone (literature) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lucifer is absolutely a god in the context of the DC Universe, being an Angel doesn't change his Godlike status. The literal only difference is semantics or trying to downplay. He ain't the capital G god, but he's a lot more than just some angel.

You clearly did not read the discussion that you cropped that from. God has a very specific meaning, and Lucifer is not a God. He is a divine being, he could be called Godlike, but no he is not a god.

Listen, man, if you can't handle somewhat aggressive conversation and a dude saying some exaggerated words of mild annoyance on the internet without getting tired, then i don't know what to tell you.

If you can't handle being asked to settle down without getting emotional about it, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm replying because you brought it up for your arguments, if you knew that it didn't matter to the argument, then you shouldn't have brought it up.

I did not bring it up for my arguments. So what was your actual reason for replying?

Again, you're the one being unnecessarily aggressive over something so petty.

I'm really not being aggressive. Why are you getting so upset about this?

So arguments about the Dark Multiverse being smaller can also be debunked

No one argued the Dark Multiverse wasn't infinite.

DC shows that things with infinite size can have boundaries as well, Infinite doesn't always mean all encompassing and never ending in DC.

Where does DC show that? Again, an infinite multiverse having a boundary isn't the same as an infinite 3D space having a boundary.
Characters have travelled to the Source Wall without teleporting, how can that happen if space is infinite?

About the Source Wall. It’s also called a seemingly infinite barrier as well.

Seemingly is not a very strong affirmation. Likewise, this is referring to the wall in a multiversal context, not the individual instances of it that surround a universe.

 

[Deagonx]

Tbh I don't understand are you saying his 2A but in combat his 2C?

I'm saying that if you consider how the Anti-Matter wave actually works, it doesn't imply that he can withstand multiversal power or that his combat abilities are 2-A. The wave that he released set off a chain reaction and it grew stronger as it hit more universes, because anti-matter itself destroys positive matter. I agree that with the wave he can destroy positive matter universes, an infinite amount of them, but nothing about that necessitates that he can withstand a 2-A attack nor that he can hit someone with a 2-A attack.

 

[Greenshifter]

How is it irrelevant when Wally West's 2-C justification is him scaling to Anti-Monitor. Changing the AM's tier would also affect Wally West.

I mean reasoning in that way is fine, I'm more arguing that the other way around (using Wally as a basis) isn't a good way to argue things.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Forgive me f it comes off as fi I'm trying to rush the thread, but what exactly is there left to be discussed?

 

[Xearesay]

Forgive me f it comes off as fi I'm trying to rush the thread, but what exactly is there left to be discussed?

Nothing really. It’s just one guy trying to say the Anti Monitor’s combat abilities shouldn’t scale to the anti matter wave despite the Anti Monitor creating the wave itself. However this is the same guy who tried to say Mxy wasn’t even universal in the same storyline where he was threatening to unimagine the multiverse. So you make of that what you will.

 

[Jared1111]

No I didn't. In fact, the first time you said this I responded to it directly and said that wasn't my point. Then you said it was my point later, and I said it wasn't my point. Here we are for a third time, with you asserting that you know what my point was better than I do. My point wasn't that the wave didn't come from him. Read my comment again:

Either way, your comment doesn't make any sense then, why would his AP be so dramatically stronger than his durability? Even in story it shows that the powers between the Monitors are tied to their durability. I guess i'm just confused on that end sorry.

It's not that he didn't create the wave per se, (though the explanation that he converted Antimatter into Energy doesn't strongly support a rating rather than a transmutation feat), it's that creating a giant wave that can destroy infinite universes doesn't mean anyone who fights and beats you needs to be 2-A to do so. The destruction of the universes was a function of the fact that anti-matter destroys positive matter, so he set off a chain reaction of anti-matter destroying positive matter.

But that doesn't make any sense. For one, the positive matter being destroyed was literally everything that exists, it didn't just react to Positive Matter in a traditional sense, it literally breaks down every bit of reality including time and space across all time and space, ripping apart dimensional boundaries as well. It's not like his Anti Matter powers couldn't also destroy other Anti Matter beings, because he literally destroyed his own lackeys as well. So its still an AP feat because it literally annihilates EVERYTHING in reality. Including beings who would otherwise be highly resistant to higher dimensional power like the Time Trapper and Darkseid.

Also chain reaction doesn't work in this context, because it literally hit everything all at once across all of time. The only reason it didn't destroy the other 5 worlds was because they were personally protected. Arguing it aint a 2-A in AP because "it only hurt positive matter" is like saying "it only destroyed literally everything that makes up existence all at once, but that doesn't count as direct AP". Thats the 2-A part.

Even if you somehow want to argue that somehow he wasn't 2-A before the way, each Universe destroyed gave him more and more power, which would mean its infinite volume and space across all time. He admits that the Universes entirely power him, and that version still fought Supergirl, so at that point he would still be 2-A and still got tossed around.

I am aware. I read it the first time you said it. The question is how he was able to create a dimension outside of AM's reach at all, with tuning forks, if Anti-Monitor is 2-A.

Because it was a specific point of the story? The dimension he created was protected because he knew it was beyond the Anti Monitors reach, just because he is 2-A doesn't mean they are dimensions and universes that can exist beyond our Multiverse. The DC Multiverse isn't the only place within DC that exists and there can be dimensions like the 5th Dimension or Apokolips that were defended against from the Anti Monitor, though he theorized he could get there eventually.

Again, just because you got 2-A power doesn't mean you have unlimited range of your abilities, or have areas you can't reach.

Again, like Darkseid, the AM wave could be protected from with certain devices, and it could be enhanced with stuff like the AM cannon.

Okay, you need to go back and re-read the discussion. Somewhere along the way you have forgotten why spacetime continuums were brought up in the first place. Whatever vague point you're trying to make here is not relevant.

You brought up Spacetime Continuums to argue against why we have separate timelines for DC, my entire point is that DC's spacetime continuums work differently and are arguably more complex than what 4D limitations you're bringing up.

What else would i be discussing?

It could be. It could also not be. You cannot assume. That's literally the entire point. You cannot assume moving something means you can destroy it. By the way, the reason it would take more energy is because you're fighting against the gravity of the sun. Not because of anything intrinsic to the difficulty in moving Earth. This is really just saying "the force it would take to remove Earth from the gravitational orbit of the sun is enough to also destroy Earth." This doesn't mean that moving a universe means you're able to destroy it, there's no comparison here.

What do you mean i can't assume? Thats the whole point of the matchup, thats like saying "you don't have definitive proof that Goku can be Low 2-C because you didn't see him do it" despite scaling and the absolute massive power it would take to pull of his own feats.

I just dont understand the argument of pulling the entirety of the Universe and its timeline into a spatial dimension, so damn chaotic that the universes are literally ripping themselves apart and crashing all of space time into one point out of the sheer force it made to get them there, wouldn't also be used to destroy them.

I'm not saying Monitor and AM have different levels of power. I am asking you to think critically about the mechanism of universe destruction and explain how it applies to Anti-Monitors durability or the level of damage he can deal in 1 on 1 combat. You've basically refused to engage with the fact that the Anti Matter wave doesn't mean AM is for all intents and purposes 2-A in a 1v1 fight, because the AM wave worked in a very specific way.

What do you mean the "critical mechanics of universe destruction" Anti Monitor's powers have the capacity to destroy the Multiverse (including space-time as even the Time Trapper feared he would destroy the Time Dimension as well) the AM wave for all intents and purposes CAME FROM HIM. What do you mean "A wave of power that can strike all of existence and rip it apart on a quantum and space-time level" wouldn't make him 2-A in a fight? He can literally hit you with a blast that rips apart low end 2-C beings like they were nothing, and scares off beings like the Time Trapper who have dedicated 2-A feats of their own?

You keep arguing the AM wave "worked in a specific way" but it really didn't. At least not the way you are pointing it out.

I explained that in the comment you replied to. Do you know what a simile is? Saying "X is like Y" is a simile, which is a figure of speech. If he were speaking literally, saying something was "like the big bang" would mean that a big bang is occurring, literally. The fact that he was drawing a non-literal comparison makes it a simile, which is a figure of speech.

That is not what "must have been" means in English. It indicates a hypothesis, not a statement of prior knowledge.


It says "Brainiac thinks." This is a description of a thought Brainiac had.

No, it states "Brainiac thinks" in relation to the big bang, the rest of the captions are clearly written from the narrators point of view. The same unending narration also points out the thoughts of Starmans thoughts as he can't breath, that doesn't mean the entirety of the narration is from his perspective.

Like dude, its no obvious from anyone actually reading it the narration is making VERY clear the Universe is Infinite in Size. Like cmon man.

Yes, you told me those things, but none of what you said indicates that "infinite realms" refers to infinite space within the universes. What is your basis for saying that?

What do you even mean, the worlds in the context of the story was Phantom Stranger talking to the Spectre about the dimensions, the worlds are being made literally in the context of the various universes that exist in the DC Universe. What else would they be refering to?

You're being so pedantic about this, just admit thats what they are saying.

Okay, I am asking which characters specifically? I'm sure there are many out there who do not have the knowledge to say that, I am asking within the context of the evidence that I have provided, what character statement are you questioning specifically?

Characters like Batman, for example, talked about the Multiverse only being 52 near the start of the New 52. As time went on they admit point blank that there are things about the DC Metaverse they do not understand.

Tone (literature) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What was so "temper tantrum" about my tone? I merely explained that i disagree with the notion that Pre-Crisis was a Gag Character because i hear it a lot. Outside of me saying damn, none of the rest of that was in any way confrontational. I'm sorry you took it that way.

You clearly did not read the discussion that you cropped that from. God has a very specific meaning, and Lucifer is not a God. He is a divine being, he could be called Godlike, but no he is not a god.

A guy who literally can create an entire metaverse of reality and is a being only a few steps down from the argued creator of all existence is a God. Again, semantics that noone should argue against.

If you can't handle being asked to settle down without getting emotional about it, I don't know what to tell you.

I have settled down, you're the one that continues to be aggressive for no reason.

I did not bring it up for my arguments. So what was your actual reason for replying?

You did bring it up, you brought up your own opinions on how Time/Space works and how that affects your view of how we should scale DC. I only pointed out thats not the time and place for it. If its your opinion thats fine, i just think it aint really gonna contribute to this discussion.

I'm really not being aggressive. Why are you getting so upset about this?

You've literally insulted me, called me an "adolescent" and talk about how tiring it is talking to me. You're absolutely aggressive, cmon man.

No one argued the Dark Multiverse wasn't infinite.

If this Dark Multiverse is Infinite, then it doesn't contradict the fact thats its bigger than the DC Multiverse which is also infinite. I just wanted to bring it up.

Where does DC show that? Again, an infinite multiverse having a boundary isn't the same as an infinite 3D space having a boundary.
Characters have travelled to the Source Wall without teleporting, how can that happen if space is infinite?

How can you travel to the center of the Universe if it's ever-expanding and never-ending, meaning the center should be an infinite distance away from you at all times?

Because DC characters, especially Pre-Crisis ones, do ridiculous shit. The same dude that can shatter the time barrier by flying so fast, or can run so fast they outrace instantaneous teleportation. Superman once flew so fast he literally broke through the boundaries of the Multiverse and was gonna end up in heaven.

Seemingly is not a very strong affirmation. Likewise, this is referring to the wall in a multiversal context, not the individual instances of it that surround a universe.

"It is not a strong affirmation"

I mean, if that doesn't do it, i don't know what will.

Also, you already proved the Source Wall exists in both the Universal scale and the Multiversal scale. Meaning its consistency of whether it exists at the edge of the Universe and Multiverse a bit strange, you can't use it as the sole reason that DC isn't infinite in size despite MULTIPLE times its stated to be Infinite.

Also (for arguments in favor of DC) Jack Kirby originally envisioned the Source Wall as a metaphysical construct, meaning it wasn't something that existed in physical space, therefore its definition about being at the "edge" of anything arguably doesn't even matter.

 

[Jared1111]

I'm saying that if you consider how the Anti-Matter wave actually works, it doesn't imply that he can withstand multiversal power or that his combat abilities are 2-A. The wave that he released set off a chain reaction and it grew stronger as it hit more universes, because anti-matter itself destroys positive matter. I agree that with the wave he can destroy positive matter universes, an infinite amount of them, but nothing about that necessitates that he can withstand a 2-A attack nor that he can hit someone with a 2-A attack.

You point out where it says "the wave grew stronger as it destroyed the multiverse" the Anti Matter Universe and the Anti Monitor grew stronger, but i don't remember it ever saying the wave itself grew stronger unless i'm forgetting something it only said the two former grew stronger.

Again, the wave hit all of time and space across all universes basically at the same time, only having the 5 Universes remaining in its place. How could it grow stronger if it already hit everything at once?

And... again "He can create an attack that can destroy an infinite number of universes across infinite time and rip through dimensional barriers... but that doesn't mean he can create a 2-A attack in a fight". Listen I'm Korean, so fair enough i may be hitting some language barrier here, but... what?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

So, we set to upgrade the pages?

 

[Jared1111]

I mean, i don't want to jump the gun mid debate, but if everyone else agrees to the upgrade I think we can. What do you think @Antvasima

 

[Deagonx]

t’s just one guy trying to say the Anti Monitor’s combat abilities shouldn’t scale to the anti matter wave despite the Anti Monitor creating the wave itself.

Yes, because the wave's anti-matter properties allowed it to destroy positive matter, and doesn't necessitate that his individual attacks are 2-A. Nothing about this is complicated.

However this is the same guy who tried to say Mxy wasn’t even universal in the same storyline where he was threatening to unimagine the multiverse. So you make of that what you will.

The evidence for him being sub-universal is far stronger than one person saying in a crisis that he will "unimagine everything in existence" which is literally untrue. Perpetua is stated multiple times to be universal, and could only destroy one universe at a time when she was nearly full power. Mxy is far far weaker than she is.

why would his AP be so dramatically stronger than his durability?

Glass Cannon - TV Tropes

In short: they can dish it out, but they can't take it. The Glass Cannon is characterized by insane attack power coupled with pathetic defensive ability. Occasionally referred to as a Glass Dragon, Glass Cannons are prevalent in RPGs and fighting …

tvtropes.org

His AP as it pertains to the anti-matter wave is exclusively defined by the interaction between antimatter and positive matter, not sheer power on part of AM. It's unclear how that ability to release an anti-matter wave translates to one on one combat.

For one, the positive matter being destroyed was literally everything that exists, it didn't just react to Positive Matter in a traditional sense, it literally breaks down every bit of reality including time and space across all time and space, ripping apart dimensional boundaries as well. It's not like his Anti Matter powers couldn't also destroy other Anti Matter beings, because he literally destroyed his own lackeys as well.

First, all of time and space and the dimensional boundaries are part of the positive matter multiverse. It's positive matter. Likewise, I'm not saying he has no power outside of the anti-matter wave for 1 on 1 combat, I'm saying the anti-matter wave and it's properties do not necessitate a certain level of power in combat. It very well could be that he can release a 2-A wave due to it being anti-matter, but can't dishout 2-A attacks in a fight individually.

You brought up Spacetime Continuums to argue against why we have separate timelines for DC, my entire point is that DC's spacetime continuums work differently and are arguably more complex than what 4D limitations you're bringing up.

What else would i be discussing?

That is not why I brought up spacetime continuums. I referenced spacetime continuums to refer to a 4D universe (thats what a spacetime continuum is)

You asked how I thought AM was below tier 2 when Monitor merged universes when he was weakened. I said:

Because I have no framework to meaningfully translate the power it takes to merge/move universes with the power it takes to destroy one. Likewise, a feat affecting infinite universes can be High 3-A. If these are just regular 4d Spacetime Continuums, even if they were infinitely sized (and they are not), that would be High 3-A

I pointed out that merging or moving a universe doesn't equate to being able to destroy it, and even he literally destroyed infinite universes that were all infinitely sized, that would be high 3-A, but it was actually him merging, and moving, not destroying, two universes that are finite in size.

What do you mean i can't assume? Thats the whole point of the matchup, thats like saying "you don't have definitive proof that Goku can be Low 2-C because you didn't see him do it" despite scaling and the absolute massive power it would take to pull of his own feats.

That's not what an assumption is. That is deduction. Deduction is when evidence proves or relies on a certain piece of information being true. If someone destroys a universe, that makes them universal. They can destroy a universe, that's literally what being universal means. However, if someone moves a universe, they may or may not be able to destroy it, which makes calling them universal an assumption that doesn't have direct evidence.

No, it states "Brainiac thinks" in relation to the big bang, the rest of the captions are clearly written from the narrators point of view.

It is clearly written as a description of Brainiac's thought. Regardless, this would just be one piece of evidence calling it infinite when there are plenty of others that do not indicate it is infinite.

Characters like Batman, for example, talked about the Multiverse only being 52 near the start of the New 52. As time went on they admit point blank that there are things about the DC Metaverse they do not understand.

I never used a scan from Batman. I'm asking you what relevance this topic of credibility has to the evidence provided in this discussion.

What was so "temper tantrum" about my tone?

I could try to explain it, but in my experience, discussions about tone always result in the relevant party denying any of the implications in the text, so I don't think it's worth the effort it would take to dissect.

A guy who literally can create an entire metaverse of reality and is a being only a few steps down from the argued creator of all existence is a God. Again, semantics that noone should argue against.

I repeat, you clearly didn't read the discussion that was a part of. I'm not using "god" as an indication of power. Lucifer is demonstrably stronger than nearly all of DC's gods, and even beings like Perpetua. However, he is not a god. He's an archangel. This was relevant to the discussion.

You did bring it up, you brought up your own opinions on how Time/Space works and how that affects your view of how we should scale DC.

Yes, I clarified my beliefs. I'm not saying I didn't bring it up, you claimed it was part of my argument, and it was not. I offered my opinion within the framework provided, while making sure it was known that I didn't fully endorse that framework, lest it be assumed that I agree with that framework.

You've literally insulted me, called me an "adolescent" and talk about how tiring it is talking to me. You're absolutely aggressive, cmon man.

This is a pretty egregious mischaracterization of my words. I never called you an adolescent, and saying that it's tiring to have someone be aggressive towards you is not itself aggressive.

How can you travel to the center of the Universe if it's ever-expanding and never-ending, meaning the center should be an infinite distance away from you at all times?

If the universe is expanding in every direction at the same rate, the center stays in the same place. I don't know what you're getting at but it doesn't seem relevant to the discussion at hand.

I repeat, if the universe is infinite, how do people travel to the edge without teleportation?

Because DC characters, especially Pre-Crisis ones, do ridiculous shit. The same dude that can shatter the time barrier by flying so fast, or can run so fast they outrace instantaneous teleportation. Superman once flew so fast he literally broke through the boundaries of the Multiverse and was gonna end up in heaven.

If your answer is it's illogical, why don't we just accept the logical conclusion that it isn't infinite? Why prefer an illogical solution over a logical one?

"It is not a strong affirmation"

I mean, if that doesn't do it, i don't know what will.

Do you know what seemingly means?

Also, you already proved the Source Wall exists in both the Universal scale and the Multiversal scale. Meaning its consistency of whether it exists at the edge of the Universe and Multiverse a bit strange, you can't use it as the sole reason that DC isn't infinite in size despite MULTIPLE times its stated to be Infinite.

It's not the sole reason, but the fact that it exists on a multiversal scale doesn't dispute the fact that being encompassed by a physical wall that one can fly to in space means it isnt infinite.

Also (for arguments in favor of DC) Jack Kirby originally envisioned the Source Wall as a metaphysical construct, meaning it wasn't something that existed in physical space, therefore its definition about being at the "edge" of anything arguably doesn't even matter.

Yet it does exist in physical space. So what Kirby envisioned originally is not relevant.

 

[Xearesay]

Trust me, you’re not hitting a language barrier. That’s exactly what he’s saying.

 

[Xearesay]

Yes, because the wave's anti-matter properties allowed it to destroy positive matter, and doesn't necessitate that his individual attacks are 2-A.

You’re literally not even making sense. He still produced the wave. Why would his attack power not scale to an attack he produced?

The evidence for him being sub-universal is far stronger than one person saying in a crisis that he will "unimagine everything in existence" which is literally untrue. Perpetua is stated multiple times to be universal, and could only destroy one universe at a time when she was nearly full power. Mxy is far far weaker than she is.

Lol it’s untrue? You act like we literally didn’t see on panel showcasing of reality being whited out by Mxy.

Also Perpetua would go along to showcase higher AP while in combat against TDK later on in the story like tearing a part bleed space.

 

[Kerfuffles2]

To get up to speed, what is the majority opinion at present?

I think this is a level-headed assessment. I assume by C-A you meant 3-A?

Yes, ugh, I meant 3-A. slaps forehead

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

To get up to speed, what is the majority opinion at present?

2-A for Superman’s maximum and those that scale to his peak

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Those who scae are currently accepted as Supergirl, Power Girl, Maaldor, Anti-Montor/Montor, Alan Scott, Dr. Fate, Time Trapper, and Mordu, though I may have forgot a few.

People who might scale are the Green Lantern Corps (to a much lower degree), Ultraman. and probably Bizarro.

 

[LordTracer]

People who might scale are the Green Lantern Corps (to a much lower degree), Ultraman. and probably Bizarro.

Pre-Crisis Hal is currently accepted as scaling to Superman, I dunno about the other GLs though.

 

[Deagonx]

Pre-Crisis Hal is currently accepted as scaling to Superman, I dunno about the other GLs though.

I believe that's based on a feat from the entire corps scaling to the Jaxon feat, unless I am mistaken.

 

[Jared1111]

Yes, because the wave's anti-matter properties allowed it to destroy positive matter, and doesn't necessitate that his individual attacks are 2-A. Nothing about this is complicated.

Why wouldn't it? If literally everything is made of positive matter, including time and space in this context, why wouldn't his attacks that can attack and shatter 4D constructs across infinite universes at infinite times not be a 2-A feat?

The evidence for him being sub-universal is far stronger than one person saying in a crisis that he will "unimagine everything in existence" which is literally untrue. Perpetua is stated multiple times to be universal, and could only destroy one universe at a time when she was nearly full power. Mxy is far far weaker than she is.

Bro are you actually arguing that Mxyzptlk is sub-universal? The man who can casually destroy entire Universes in most cases and outright exists within a plane of existence to great makes our look like "shadows on the wall" to him? What?

Glass Cannon - TV Tropes

In short: they can dish it out, but they can't take it. The Glass Cannon is characterized by insane attack power coupled with pathetic defensive ability. Occasionally referred to as a Glass Dragon, Glass Cannons are prevalent in RPGs and fighting …

tvtropes.org

His AP as it pertains to the anti-matter wave is exclusively defined by the interaction between antimatter and positive matter, not sheer power on part of AM. It's unclear how that ability to release an anti-matter wave translates to one on one combat.

You see, that doesn't really matter when "Positive Matter" in this context means EXISTENCE ITSELF. He was not only erasing just positive matter, it included all the things that made up reality. Its literally EVERYTHING, and its obvious that even extends to Anti Matter itself since he casually defeated his henchmen.

Also theres no reason to believe he's a glass cannon, when he was able to go toe to toe with his equal, the Monitor, who has the same AP and durability as him, thats not what a glass cannon is. His only low showing is against his own henchmen which he easily disposed of when he got serious, and Supergirl, who is arguably 2-A to begin with.

First, all of time and space and the dimensional boundaries are part of the positive matter multiverse. It's positive matter. Likewise, I'm not saying he has no power outside of the anti-matter wave for 1 on 1 combat, I'm saying the anti-matter wave and it's properties do not necessitate a certain level of power in combat. It very well could be that he can release a 2-A wave due to it being anti-matter, but can't dishout 2-A attacks in a fight individually.

Well then you admit it, attacking a timestream and destroying it as baseline Low 2-C, Anti Monitor was destroying ALL TIMELINES AND ALL REALITIES. It would literally havea to be 2-A. How else would an attack that literally affects TIME, to a point the LORD OF TIME himself is scared of it and has to hide not be 4D if not beyond, its obvious that its a pretty AP attack, and my biggest point was it hitting an entire Infinite Multiverse basically simultaneously across EVERY POINT AT TIME. Thats INFINITE EARTHS and INFINITE TIMELINES, thats 2-A no matter how you slice it.

How can Anti Matter not necessitate a certain level of power in combat, WHEN HIS ENTIRE THING IS ANTIMATTER. His power is the 2-A wave, because the 2-A wave came from him. Why would he not be able to dish that out in a combat scenario, especially since his Anti Matter doesn't work like actual Anti Matter, it just destroy literally everything.

And again, my entire argument for him being 2-A doesn't just lean on the wave, it also scales to guys like Mordru, Dr Fate, Time Trapper, and Darkseid who all have scaling to 2-A or outright 2-A feats. Even then, he'd still be 2-A.

That is not why I brought up spacetime continuums. I referenced spacetime continuums to refer to a 4D universe (thats what a spacetime continuum is)

And i brought up how 4D Universes in the DC Universe have their own separate spacetime continuums that also feed into a larger 4D goliath that is the Time Dimension, which is why an attack on that could be 2-A.

You asked how I thought AM was below tier 2 when Monitor merged universes when he was weakened. I said:

Because I have no framework to meaningfully translate the power it takes to merge/move universes with the power it takes to destroy one. Likewise, a feat affecting infinite universes can be High 3-A. If these are just regular 4d Spacetime Continuums, even if they were infinitely sized (and they are not), that would be High 3-A

I pointed out that merging or moving a universe doesn't equate to being able to destroy it, and even he literally destroyed infinite universes that were all infinitely sized, that would be high 3-A, but it was actually him merging, and moving, not destroying, two universes that are finite in size.

Thats not how that works though, moving the entirety of a spacetime continuum on this site is Tier 2, merging timelines like what the Monitor did is literally tier 2, especially since each Universe is its own timeline. Again, it wasn't just affecting their timelines at one point in time, it affected all their time at every point in said timeline and crashed them all together.

Thats not High 3-A by OUR standards, so bringing it up in argument for High 3-A doesn't make any sense.

That's not what an assumption is. That is deduction. Deduction is when evidence proves or relies on a certain piece of information being true. If someone destroys a universe, that makes them universal. They can destroy a universe, that's literally what being universal means. However, if someone moves a universe, they may or may not be able to destroy it, which makes calling them universal an assumption that doesn't have direct evidence.

If someone has the ability to merge entire timelines together and affect something on a 4D scale, we scale that to Tier 2. Its been done before, hell its the justification for Tier 2 Monitor in the first place in his AP. If you want to argue for whatever reason that we shouldn't scale something like that to AP, ok fine, but by the standards of the Wiki thats it. You want to rewrite how space-time and timelines are measured, go ahead.

It is clearly written as a description of Brainiac's thought. Regardless, this would just be one piece of evidence calling it infinite when there are plenty of others that do not indicate it is infinite.

No, it isn't It ain't one piece of evidence, I literally showed 2 other scans of the same conclusion being made, even before the Silver Age was done. Infinite Universes wasn't just a retcon, its as old as Pre-Crisis Supergirl.

I never used a scan from Batman. I'm asking you what relevance this topic of credibility has to the evidence provided in this discussion.

Ok, can you show some scans that absolutely debunk the possibility of an infinite DC universe, ones that aren't guestimations of its size, or outdated information coming from characters that would be absolutely wrong about how big it is. Honestly, i'm curious now.

I could try to explain it, but in my experience, discussions about tone always result in the relevant party denying any of the implications in the text, so I don't think it's worth the effort it would take to dissect.

Then don't bring it up, to begin with, just agree or disagree with what i said, and move on. You don't need to derail the discussion by acting like me saying "he's not a gag character" is somehow me screaming in your face or anything.

I repeat, you clearly didn't read the discussion that was a part of. I'm not using "god" as an indication of power. Lucifer is demonstrably stronger than nearly all of DC's gods, and even beings like Perpetua. However, he is not a god. He's an archangel. This was relevant to the discussion.\

He's not a god
He's just stronger than all gods
But he's not a god

Whatever discussion that was, whether your fault or not, is stupid and full of semantics.

Yes, I clarified my beliefs. I'm not saying I didn't bring it up, you claimed it was part of my argument, and it was not. I offered my opinion within the framework provided, while making sure it was known that I didn't fully endorse that framework, lest it be assumed that I agree with that framework.

You are using it as part of your argument though, you did so above, putting your headcanon of what a High 3-A universe should be, when its Tier 2. Don't pretend otherwise.

This is a pretty egregious mischaracterization of my words. I never called you an adolescent, and saying that it's tiring to have someone be aggressive towards you is not itself aggressive.

You literally said my "adolescent frustration" implying i either am, or acting like an adolescent.

You'd make a great lawyer BTW

If the universe is expanding in every direction at the same rate, the center stays in the same place. I don't know what you're getting at but it doesn't seem relevant to the discussion at hand.

If the Universe is expanding, infinitely, then by definition you'd be expanding along with it (which we are doing in real life) the Universe itselfs center if its already infinite in size by the time of Supergirls writing, should be an infinite distance away from wherever Supergirl is at that moment.

I repeat, if the universe is infinite, how do people travel to the edge without teleportation?

Most time people get to the "edge" of the Universe it is with teleportation or boom tubes. Other times its done through sheer speed, especially coming from characters like Flash or PC Superman who already reach into immeasurable speed when traveling through time, or Supermans case using his teleportation abilities to bend time and space, like what happens with both Post and Pre-Crisis Superman

Wally literally raced across the entire Universe by running into the timestream, you can reach basically anywhere and when through it.

If your answer is it's illogical, why don't we just accept the logical conclusion that it isn't infinite? Why prefer an illogical solution over a logical one?\

It's not illogical, it's just strange, over the top, and ridiculous. It's not literally impossible, it just means DC characters can do things not thought of as normal or entirely easy to understand.

The Flash can literally outspeed instant teleportation and reach Infinite Speeds, but its not like we just say "thats illogical, lets ignore it."

It's not the sole reason, but the fact that it exists on a multiversal scale doesn't dispute the fact that being encompassed by a physical wall that one can fly to in space means it isnt infinite.

Its relation to a physical wall and where it exists means that what it is shouldn't be used as the sole reason why DC's Universes can't be infinite. It literally exists in 6D space as well. Point is, it's not the smoking gun that outright disproves Infinite Universes DC.

Yet it does exist in physical space. So what Kirby envisioned originally is not relevant.

What do you mean what Kirby envisioned it is not relevant? Thats how he wrote it and how it was written for a majority of its Pre-Crisis existence, in fact the Post-Crisis appearance of a literal wall of bodies didn't exist until the Marvel/DC crossover, almost 10 years AFTER the Crisis.

 

[Jared1111]

Pre-Crisis Hal is currently accepted as scaling to Superman, I dunno about the other GLs though.

I don't agree to a 2-A Hal, because it took the entire GL Corps and multiple GL's to recreate the Jaxon and Maaldor feats. He wasn't the uber god he was later in Post-Crisis either so it shouldn't count.

He could still scale to the Low 2-C to potentially 2-C feats of Silver Age Superman and the lesser dudes.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I believe that's based on a feat from the entire corps scaling to the Jaxon feat, unless I am mistaken.

Yep, the collective power of the GLC is 2-A, which divided by 3600 would still qualify as 2-A. Though since we sometimes consider group feats unquantifiable for indvidualls, we can scale them to Arkiss Chummuck' 3-A(?) feat.

 

[Kerfuffles2]

I don't agree that pre-Crisis Hal Jordan is comparable to pre-Crisis Superman. Notably, Superman took him out with zero effort in Action Comics #437, and overwhelmed the power ring's capabilities when an alien being called N'Gon duplicated Hal Jordan's form to use it in DC Comics Presents #26. (Even then, N'Gon needed to create a power-construct of Green Kryptonite... which somehow had the same properties as the real thing... to get an edge, though he still lost.)

Of course, using N'Gon as a proxy for Hal Jordan is flawed, since N'Gon doesn't possess Hal's willpower arguably... Though an argument could be made that he did, since N'Gon stole Hal's memories also, which maybe had the secondary effect of matching his willpower. The issue itself is strangely silent about that aspect. The real Hal does bring up the possibility of trying to influence the power ring while N'Gon is wearing it (Hal was in astral form at the time), but ultimately, that doesn't happen. Hal just returns to his physical body and convinces Superman that N'Gon is an imposter when N'Gon uses the power ring to suck Superman into his dimension. Even in the fight from Action Comics #437, it could be argued that both Superman and Green Lantern are holding back, since they're being forced to fight against their will by Effron the Sorcerer. And then there's the time that Green Lantern's power-beam had no effect on Superman, followed by Superman beating up on GL, at the beginning of Justice League of America #167... But there, it clearly doesn't count, since Superman's and Green Lantern's bodies are being possessed by the minds of The Wizard and Reverse-Flash, respectively.

Nevertheless, for Hal and Superman to receive the same ranking, I would expect them to match each other equally in combat, which is something that to my knowledge never happened in the pre-Crisis era. Trying to compare different types of feats that both have under their belts is a dead end, because the capabilities of both characters are just too inconsistent and would fluctuate more based on whatever has a more dramatic effect for the needs of the story, as opposed to anything rationally and objectively capable of being assessed.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

As the resident Green Lantern fan, I tend to disagree with Hal being as strong as Superman too. Whenever he or other GL members do defeat Superman (which is fairly often), they usually do it by overwhelming him with their sheer variety in powers or by constructing Kryptonite. Technically Post-Crisis but during the Armageddeon 2001 event, Superman took out Guy Gardner with utterly no effort as well.

 

[Jared1111]

Again, Hal didn't take a massive upturn in power til Post-Crisis when he became much more of a manageable threat to him. But Pre-Crisis he was constantly shown as inferior, as were basically all the Justice League, maybe outside Barry, but even then he would be 2-C for redirecting the Anti Matter Cannon.

 

[Kerfuffles2]

Again, Hal didn't take a massive upturn in power til Post-Crisis when he became much more of a manageable threat to him. But Pre-Crisis he was constantly shown as inferior, as were basically all the Justice League, maybe outside Barry, but even then he would be 2-C for redirecting the Anti Matter Cannon.

The Flash was also taken down like a punk in the fight from Action Comics #437, although the way he was beaten is kind of BS to me. For some reason, it was decided that Barry couldn't vibrate his molecules through Superman's knockout punch because Superman's molecules are too dense. Which makes me think of the contradictory feats about whether pre-Crisis Superman could duplicate Barry's "vibrate through walls" trick. He couldn't in Superman #220, but he could in Superman #251, and Supergirl once replicated the trick after claiming that Superman taught it to her, in one of the issues of the truly awful, unforgivably bad Mike Sekowsky Adventure Comics run on the character in the early 70s.

Technically, Firestorm could summon up Green Kryptonite and beat Superman that way. This may count as cheating, but on another level it is just a product of his molecular transmutation powers. And Zatanna could probably have taken out Superman with magic before the stupid thing from Justice League of America #191 where she lost her ability to use non-elemental magic, in an attempt by the writers to make her less powerful (that was eventually done away with anyway). Otherwise, no one in the pre-Crisis JLA could equal Superman's power, though Green Lantern comes closest.

 

[Jared1111]

Barry has like, one or two good showings against Ultraman and Superman where he “shook him up” in one fight and held him in place for another

But yeah, those arent really defeats more just mild inconveniences, his best feat would be the AM canon, since he directly countered the Anti Matter back upon itself, said Anti Matter being strong enough to destroy 5 Universes in another reality.

(Also I gotta go to work, so I’ll see you guys in 8 hours)

 

[Kerfuffles2]

Yet it does exist in physical space. So what Kirby envisioned originally is not relevant.

Also, a statement about the Source Wall: According to the diagram of the Multiverse hierarchy that DC has most recently produced, the Source Wall is what separates the Sphere of the Gods and the Monitor Sphere from the Source. It is thusly defined as "the limit even to thought" and is said to occupy a higher vibrational oscillatory frequency than several layers of metaphysical existence that, in turn, occupy higher frequencies than "corporeal reality" confined to the Orrery of Worlds (the 52 Multiverse). The barrier between the Orrery of Worlds and the metaphysical layers of reality that are "closer" to the Source Wall is defined within this diagram as the Speed Force Wall.

The New Gods and their worlds of New Genesis and Apokolips, per both Kirby's original concept and multiple affirmations since then (e.g. Final Crisis), occupy simultaneously a place in physical reality as beings of matter and more abstract metaphysical concepts that exist upon the plane of ideas. The idea is that the "full essences" of the New Gods are just too large and complex to be folded into 3-dimensional standard reality, so they and their planets are represented by avatars instead, which are superficially perceived as "alien civilizations." I suppose based on that, the Source Wall could also have a dual existence as a physical and metaphysical construct. We know from the original Fourth World line of comics, written and pencilled by Kirby, that the Source Wall exists in physical space, from the fact that it happens to be surrounded by immobile Promethan Giants, who happen to hail from the nearby Promethean galaxy.

 

[ElixirBlue]

2-A at peak for Superman seems alright, gathering from what the consensus of the thread is coming to

 

[Firestorm808]

@Antvasima

Do we consider fractions of infinity as finite?

 

[Teezar]

The evidence for him being sub-universal is far stronger than one person saying in a crisis that he will "unimagine everything in existence" which is literally untrue. Perpetua is stated multiple times to be universal, and could only destroy one universe at a time when she was nearly full power. Mxy is far far weaker than she is.

I heavily disagree with the Mr mxyzptlk own and the perpetua own is just a low end outlier.

But this is derailing and should he discussed in a discussion group.

First, all of time and space and the dimensional boundaries are part of the positive matter multiverse. It's positive matter. Likewise, I'm not saying he has no power outside of the anti-matter wave for 1 on 1 combat, I'm saying the anti-matter wave and it's properties do not necessitate a certain level of power in combat. It very well could be that he can release a 2-A wave due to it being anti-matter, but can't dishout 2-A attacks in a fight individually.

Sorry, I still don't get this or should I PC you?

I repeat, you clearly didn't read the discussion that was a part of. I'm not using "god" as an indication of power. Lucifer is demonstrably stronger than nearly all of DC's gods, and even beings like Perpetua. However, he is not a god. He's an archangel. This was relevant to the discussion.

I agree with this.

You’re literally not even making sense. He still produced the wave. Why would his attack power not scale to an attack he produced?

That's why I'm confused .

Also Perpetua would go along to showcase higher AP while in combat against TDK later on in the story like tearing a part bleed space

This scan is actually saying WF multiverse was complete.

Those who scae are currently accepted as Supergirl, Power Girl, Maaldor, Anti-Montor/Montor, Alan Scott, Dr. Fate, Time Trapper, and Mordu, though I may have forgot a few.

People who might scale are the Green Lantern Corps (to a much lower degree), Ultraman. and probably Bizarro.

Darkseid?

 

[Deagonx]

why wouldn't his attacks that can attack and shatter 4D constructs across infinite universes at infinite times not be a 2-A feat?

It's not a matter of it not being a 2-A feat. It's that he cannot use the Anti Matter wave in combat. He can only use his regular blasts, which have not been shown to have the same level of effectiveness. It's like comparing Thor's God blast to every time he swings his hammer.

Bro are you actually arguing that Mxyzptlk is sub-universal? The man who can casually destroy entire Universes in most cases and outright exists within a plane of existence to great makes our look like "shadows on the wall" to him? What?

In most cases he certainly cannot destroy universes, and he scales below a universal character. I dont know why you're bringing up the shadows on the wall thing, because that is so incredibly vague that it's completely useless.

You see, that doesn't really matter when "Positive Matter" in this context means EXISTENCE ITSELF.

How does this fundamentally change how the concept of a Glass Cannon could apply to Anti Monitor?

my biggest point was it hitting an entire Infinite Multiverse basically simultaneously across EVERY POINT AT TIME. Thats INFINITE EARTHS and INFINITE TIMELINES, thats 2-A no matter how you slice it.

This clearly was not the case given the fact that the earths were being whittled down gradually.

And i brought up how 4D Universes in the DC Universe have their own separate spacetime continuums

And I pointed out that you dont know what Spacetime Continuum means. A 4D universe does not have a spacetime continuum. A 4D universe is a spacetime continuum.

Thats not how that works though, moving the entirety of a spacetime continuum on this site is Tier 2, merging timelines like what the Monitor did is literally tier 2,

Neither of these things are tier 2 according to the wiki standards. You have to significantly affect a universe, which is stipulated as ""Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, etc."

Moving an object is not comparable in power to creating it or destroying it.

Why would he not be able to dish that out in a combat scenario, especially since his Anti Matter doesn't work like actual Anti Matter, it just destroy literally everything.

Because we've seen it not destroy things outside of his wave. His wave destroyed entire universes full of characters who are as strong as the people that withstood his attacks in combat. The wave demonstrated a destructive capacities that was infinitely higher than anything he's displayed, and worked in a way that is completely disjointed from how he actually fights. His anti matter wave destroyed literally everything. His attacks in combat do not.

No, it isn't It ain't one piece of evidence, I literally showed 2 other scans of the same conclusion being made, even before the Silver Age was done. Infinite Universes wasn't just a retcon, its as old as Pre-Crisis Supergirl.

I didn't say there's only one piece of evidence, I am saying the Brainiac scan is one piece of evidence. I never said it was a retcon, and again, there is tons of conflicting evidence.

Whatever discussion that was, whether your fault or not, is stupid and full of semantics.

Being a God in DC has a specific meaning and has specific implications, it is not stupid or semantic to discuss what that implies for the characters. It was stupid of you to bring it up without knowing the context.

You are using it as part of your argument though, you did so above, putting your headcanon of what a High 3-A universe should be, when its Tier 2. Don't pretend otherwise.

There's no pretending, you literally just don't understand that you can make a statement without it being a part of a priamry argument, which is not my concern.

Most time people get to the "edge" of the Universe it is with teleportation or boom tubes. Other times its done through sheer speed, especially coming from characters like Flash or PC Superman who already reach into immeasurable speed when traveling through time,

Okay, and other times people just get there with space ships. What's your point?

It's not illogical, it's just strange, over the top, and ridiculous. It's not literally impossible, it just means DC characters can do things not thought of as normal or entirely easy to understand.

The Flash can literally outspeed instant teleportation and reach Infinite Speeds, but its not like we just say "thats illogical, lets ignore it."

Those things are not illogical, that's a terrible comparison. The mechanisms for those things happening is pretty straightforward.

Its relation to a physical wall and where it exists means that what it is shouldn't be used as the sole reason why DC's Universes can't be infinite. It literally exists in 6D space as well. Point is, it's not the smoking gun that outright disproves Infinite Universes DC.

Yet it is, because it is physical, and exists at the edge of the universe, and can be reached without teleportation or infinite speed.

What do you mean what Kirby envisioned it is not relevant? Thats how he wrote it and how it was written for a majority of its Pre-Crisis existence, in fact the Post-Crisis appearance of a literal wall of bodies didn't exist until the Marvel/DC crossover, almost 10 years AFTER the Crisis.

What is actually in the comics is relevant. Not author intent.

You’re literally not even making sense. He still produced the wave. Why would his attack power not scale to an attack he produced?

Because he is not able to use that attack in combat. It's like deciding everyone Goku fights scales to his Spirit Bomb, even though most of his attacks are nowhere near that powerful, and he's not able to use Spirit Bomb in many combat scenarios.

Lol it’s untrue? You act like we literally didn’t see on panel showcasing of reality being whited out by Mxy.

Sure, he unimagined part of a city. Cute. Now show him actually destroying a universe.

I heavily disagree with the Mr mxyzptlk own and the perpetua own is just a low end outlier.

Perpetua only presents as an outlier if you take a lot of things out of context over a long period of time to consistently overrate comic book characters, IMO.

Sorry, I still don't get this or should I PC you?

Ill repeat the analogy I used above. Scaling every attack that AM uses to the anti-matter wave is like comparing every blast Goku uses to a Spirit Bomb, or every attack from Thor scaling to a God Blast, even those attacks have uniquely higher power and cant easily be used in combat.

 

[Stefano4444]

That’d support Flash scaling lol

Just because they were amped by Flash it doesn't mean Flash was stronger than them, or that he was on the same level.

 

[Stefano4444]

The story made it very clear that Wally>JLA

Pretty sure Wally West was never potrayed as stronger than all the JL combined.

 

[Jared1111]

Pretty sure Wally West was never potrayed as stronger than all the JL combined.

I mean, the story itself showed him on his own doing more damage than the rest of the League combined, and that was while he was amping them up. I mean, either way it would be 2-A which isn't out of the possibility for the Flash knowing how strong he is while amped by the Speed Force.

Flash (especially Wally) have shown to be far above most other heroes Post-Crisis, arguably even Rebirth Superman and Hal if Barry and Wally's race proves anything.

 

[Deagonx]

That seems like it's more a function of speed than him actually being stronger. He can just hit more times in quick succession than the league can, so the "amp" is just giving them that ability to move faster.

 

[Stefano4444]

I mean, the story itself showed him on his own doing more damage than the rest of the League combined, and that was while he was amping them up.

Amped Pre-Crisis JL did a lot more damage than just that, they blow a good chuck of AM's armor.

 

[Jared1111]

It's not a matter of it not being a 2-A feat. It's that he cannot use the Anti Matter wave in combat. He can only use his regular blasts, which have not been shown to have the same level of effectiveness. It's like comparing Thor's God blast to every time he swings his hammer.

Why can't he use the AM wave in combat? Is there any indication he couldn't unleash that energy before? Only reason he never did it against the Monitor was that they fought on equal ground for literal eons and neither held the distinct advantage, it was only when one universe fell to Anti Matter and the Monitor was out of commission that the Anti Monitor realized that he could use the waves properties to defeat his foe.

Nothing throughout the story implies he couldn't unleash that amount of energy again. Especially since he had even MORE Anti Matter at his disposal by the end of the story than he ever did against the Monitor.

In most cases he certainly cannot destroy universes, and he scales below a universal character. I dont know why you're bringing up the shadows on the wall thing, because that is so incredibly vague that it's completely useless.

Ok, Mxy doesn't destroy Universes because in his own words, "there would be nothing to do the next day" he literally holds back because he cares about games and ******* around more than he does actually killing people most of the time. Emperor Joker with a majority of his powers remade an entire Universe in his image, then blew it up for ***** and giggles.

Are you seriously gonna argue that a 5D character is somehow not consistently so beyond Universal its not even funny? Are we really having this discussion? The shadow on the wall is literally a metaphor for how 5D characters are so beyond even 4D characters its not funny, even stated IN CANON.

Like no man, i'm not gonna let that slide, that's downplay on a level that i've rarely ever seen, and the fact you are unironically arguing that is beyond stupid.

How does this fundamentally change how the concept of a Glass Cannon could apply to Anti Monitor?

... Because a Glass Cannon doesn't have the same Durability as its AP? Meaning its weaker than its own energy?

A glass cannon is LITERALLY "Can dish it out, but can't take it" from the site you showed me. Dude cmon.

This clearly was not the case given the fact that the earths were being whittled down gradually.

They weren't they were all hit at exactly the same time, which just saw the effects happen through different view points. Only 5 earths were able to survive, along with their timestreams.

And I pointed out that you dont know what Spacetime Continuum means. A 4D universe does not have a spacetime continuum. A 4D universe is a spacetime continuum.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall, yes in real life that's how it works, in DC they use the form of a 4D Universe differently, especially in Pre-Crisis where there where individual Space-Time Continuums for each Universe separate to their own dimensional state, and there was a very specific 4D Dimension that encompasses all the Universes themselves.

Stop bringing up how they work in real life/theory, that doesn't pertain to how it works in DC, WHICH IS ALL THAT MATTERS HERE.

Neither of these things are tier 2 according to the wiki standards. You have to significantly affect a universe, which is stipulated as ""Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, etc."

Pray tell, how does one remove an entire Universe from its place in the Multiverse, literally springing it across all of time and space, and in such a way that its entire timeline is smashed all together and so destabilized that it cannot sustain itself for long, not "significantly affecting it"?

That seems pretty damn significant changes to the very fabric of their entire dimensions, they were moved, timelines and all, to a completely different point of EXISTENCE beyond the scope of their own Multiverse. That's beyond "significant"

Moving an object is not comparable in power to creating it or destroying it.

Moving it from its own place in the Multiverse, all of which is held together through dimensional vibrations, to a point where two entire space-time continuums are smashing into each other as they occupy nearly the same place is.

Because we've seen it not destroy things outside of his wave. His wave destroyed entire universes full of characters who are as strong as the people that withstood his attacks in combat. The wave demonstrated a destructive capacities that was infinitely higher than anything he's displayed, and worked in a way that is completely disjointed from how he actually fights. His anti matter wave destroyed literally everything. His attacks in combat do not.

How has it displayed "infinitely higher destructive capacities" than he has displayed, if he outright destroyed 99% of the shit he wanted to destroy in one shot. He absolutely annihilated his lackeys with minor inconvenience and Supergirl was slain in one stray shot of a blast he had. I don't doubt the Anti Matter Wave was one of his strongest attacks, so you could argue he needed to charge it up, but nothing in COIE implies that he could only do the AM wave once.

Again, DARKSEID, an arguably 2-A character, knew that the Monitor would eventually reach his dimension and kill him and everyone else, and the Monitor backed that up. Why would Darkseid ever argue someone could kill him if he wasn't absolutely sure of it himself? He doesn't take threats like that lightly.

Only other display of power was against the Monitor who was equally matched in power and neither could get a specific advantage, that battle shook creation and was fought for literal eons.

I didn't say there's only one piece of evidence, I am saying the Brainiac scan is one piece of evidence. I never said it was a retcon, and again, there is tons of conflicting evidence.

Please show me the rest of this evidence that absolutely disproves the Universe being Infinite in any capacity, that isn't just saying the Universe is a specific size which can easily be disproven (since in real life we also don't know its specific size either) or someone clearly not knowledgable about it.

All my examples are from higher tier characters or narration boxes, which far outstrip the opinions of characters who wouldn't know any better. But please, prove me wrong.

There's no pretending, you literally just don't understand that you can make a statement without it being a part of a priamry argument, which is not my concern.

Making a statement that is meant to argue your point, within a debate page, means i assume whatever point you're making leads into your argument, especially since this is an argument for why you think he shouldn't be 2-A.

Okay, and other times people just get there with space ships. What's your point?

How many times has this happened in which the space ships couldn't have also been using teleportation or flown through a wormhole, several ships and vehicles in DC can teleport across dimensions or through time.

Those things are not illogical, that's a terrible comparison. The mechanisms for those things happening is pretty straightforward.

Then nothing i said was illogical so i don't know why you called them illogical.

Yet it is, because it is physical, and exists at the edge of the universe, and can be reached without teleportation or infinite speed.

Again, its metaphysical nature and the vagueness of where it exists in time and space means that we can't just use it as the sole reason DC "isn't infinite". And again, something can have an edge and still be infinite in size, DC does it all the time.

What is actually in the comics is relevant. Not author intent.

Kirby wrote the Source Wall as a sort of metaphysical boundary in mind since he wrote the comic, the literal wall of guards wasn't even popularized until well after his run on the Pre-Crisis comics.

Because he is not able to use that attack in combat. It's like deciding everyone Goku fights scales to his Spirit Bomb, even though most of his attacks are nowhere near that powerful, and he's not able to use Spirit Bomb in many combat scenarios.

For one, nothing implies that it takes the Anti Monitor a massive power-up time to use the AM wave, even in the story it's assumed he created the wave very early on. Also, the spirit bomb is absolutely a part of his AP and is used on his page for his stats "useful in many combat scenarios" or not.

The AM wave is more like the Kamehameha or the Final Flash, especially since the Spirit Bomb requires outside assistance to use, while the AM wave is apart of the Anti Monitor.

Sure, he unimagined part of a city. Cute. Now show him actually destroying a universe.

Are you actually arguing, the literal page of the comic being erased, and multiple characters mentioning him erasing existence itself, somehow doesnt count.

Holy shit dude, this is advanced downplay of the highest magnitude.

Perpetua only presents as an outlier if you take a lot of things out of context over a long period of time to consistently overrate comic book characters, IMO.

Y'know, i'm starting to think you downplaying DC characters for the hell of it wasn't actually me being mean, and you really do have ulterior motives.

Ill repeat the analogy I used above. Scaling every attack that AM uses to the anti-matter wave is like comparing every blast Goku uses to a Spirit Bomb, or every attack from Thor scaling to a God Blast, even those attacks have uniquely higher power and cant easily be used in combat.

It doesn't make any sense though, Spirit Bomb is outside help that he must gather over time, the AM wave is never implied to be something that the Anti Monitor had to charge up over a vast amount of time, or something he couldn't pull off without a massive amount of help.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but all we see is him gathering the AM to wake himself up, absorbing it to have that advantage over the monitor, then unleashing a wave of Anti Matter that outright destroys the Multiverse. Only other confrontations are between himself and his minions (who he destroys without problem) and Supergirl, who he kills with one stray blast. Also both of those incidents happened in the AM Universe, and one of them was near his massive superweapon that he didn't want to destroy, so yeah he probably wasn't gonna unleash complete destruction in his living room.

 

[Jared1111]

Amped Pre-Crisis JL did a lot more damage than just that, they blow a good chuck of AM's armor.

I know, my scans show the same thing, but it took their combined power just to blow one massive hole in his chest, Wally absolutely annihilated the rest of the Armor, even parts not hit by their blast, with no trouble on his own. Its pretty obvious in this scenario he's meant to be far stronger than the rest of them. Again, the Flash Post-Crisis could reach ridiculous levels of strength, and could even knock around guys like Superboy Prime if need be.

Theres a reason we rank them so highly. Post-Speed Force Flashes are stupid broken.