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Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision

Stefano4444 said:
True i'm actually forgot that Barry Allen had his own Pre-Crisis profile.

Barry Allen (Pre-Crisis)

Not sure if he had any feats involving other Pre-Crisis characters, but i guess we can just use the destruction of the Anti-Matter Cannon for justify him be at least 2-C.

By the way, since Pre-Crisis Flash has his own separated profile, wouldn't be better if we do the same with Hal Jordan?
Click to expand...
He fought Hal Jordan several times, four members of JLA for while, Reverse-Flash has a shit ton of herald scaling
 
Stefano4444 said:
What? No, i mean separate Pre-Crisis Hal Jordan and Post-Crisis Hal Jordan, not merge Barry Allen's profiles.
Click to expand...
They're the same person. Hal and Barry were unaffected by the Crisis (as were most Flash and GL characters). They should have separate keys, sure, but separate pages misrepresents the characters.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Superman (Pre-Crisis)
Supergirl (Pre-Crisis)
Superboy-Prime
Anti-Monitor
Darkseid
The Monitor
Ion
Nekron
Doctor Fate (Classic)
Time Trapper
Highfather
Captain Atom (Post-Crisis)
Parallax
The Butcher (DC Comics)
The Spectre
Trigon (Post-Crisis)
The World Forger
Mongul (Pre-Crisis)
Superman (Original)
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)
Sodam Yat
The Infinite Man
Mordru
Thaal Sinestro (Post-Crisis)
Orion

This should be all the characters i find who should scale to Pre-Crisis Superman, either to only his 2-C or both his 2-C and 2-A.

Fortunately many of this profiles don't necessary need major change due of either have their own 2-C/2-A feats or that they indirectly scale to Pre-Crisis Superman.
Click to expand...
We should not scale any Post-Crisis characters to Pre-Crisis Superman via Superboy-Prime, as the latter has a very variable power level.
 
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Amelia_Lonelyheart said:
They're the same person. Hal and Barry were unaffected by the Crisis (as were most Flash and GL characters). They should have separate keys, sure, but separate pages misrepresents the characters.
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Well, their histories were affected by other characters, such as Superman and Wonder Woman, being rebooted, so I am not certain. However, as long as they get separate keys depending on the eras, it isn't a very big issue.
 
Jared1111 said:
That same issue does state that Dr Fate was able to approximate Superman's powers without much issue. But this was also clearly within the Silver Age of comics, and Superman hadn't gotten as strong as he would during the Later Bronze Age (Kerfuffles is correct about the early Bronze Age getting significantly depowered, but that went away the closer you got to the 70s and 80s.)
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We need more concrete feats of Doctor Fate matching other characters outright, not vague statements.
Jared1111 said:
Also, another character we might add a page/key for is Martian Manhunter, since once Superman fought him in a dazed rage and not only did Martian Manhunter cause him to bleed, but Superman admitted they could fight for a century.
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A separate page for MM seems fine to me. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1342464-worldsfinest1972212056bd.jpg
Jared1111 said:
Also i don't know if i forgot to mention the Spectre, since when he's at his best he clearly outstrips Superman, even the Later Bronze Age one without question. The only reason its stated he couldn't defeat the Anti Monitor was because of an inbalance of Magic during the Crisis, by the time he fought the Dawn of Creation AM (who not only was juiced by the entirety of the Anti Matter Universe/Multiverse, but also the heroes themselves) he did need assistance against a dude with arguably 2x Multiversal power, and it's implied he could've stopped him at full power in a later story.
Click to expand...
I recall that the Spectre has some complicated current scaling in place, as does Doctor Fate. Can somebody check this up please?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, their histories were affected by other characters, such as Superman and Wonder Woman, being rebooted, so I am not certain. However, as long as they get separate keys depending on the eras, it isn't a very big issue.
Click to expand...
I absolute agree that we shouldn't scale Pre and Post-Crisis things to each other, but the histories were not entirely rewritten. Some retcons were made, for example, Emerald Dawn retconned Hal becoming friends with Kilowog in his first week of training, when Kilowog didn't enter Hal's life til around #200 of his comic, but nariatively speaking, they're supposed to be largely the same.

I guess for bigger characters it's not as much of an issue because lke Stefano said, it can overstuff them, but I feel like more minor characters should not get split.

As for Superboy-Prime, only a very few amount of Post-Crisis characters scale to him at his peak, and they're all amped in some way so it wouldn't affect anyone else. I don't have a problem with them hitting 2-A for that reason.
 
Amelia_Lonelyheart said:
I absolute agree that we shouldn't scale Pre and Post-Crisis things to each other, but the histories were not entirely rewritten.
Click to expand...
About that, shouldn't their profiles also had separated Abilities and Resistances for each respective keys/ages? Similar with Dante and Kratos's profiles.

I mean, i doesn't make sense to assume that Post-Crisis Flash can do s**t like turn into a boomerang or possess such healing factor like in the Silver Age.
 
Stefano4444 said:
About that, shouldn't their profiles also had separated Abilities and Resistances for each respective keys/ages? Similar with Dante and Kratos's profiles.

I mean, i doesn't make sense to assume that Post-Crisis Flash can do s**t like turn into a boomerang or possess such healing factor like in the Silver Age.
Click to expand...
Depends on the person, I guess?

The Power Rings for Green Lanterns were unaffected by the Crisis, so I don't think they should get split up at all, powers and resistences and all. Same wth Power Girl, she's explicitly the same person, down to having the same physiological structure as Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, so she should keep the same powers and resistances. Flash can probably get a P&A split due to speed-force stuff changing, though.

Maybe we can mark the references for said powers as Pre or Post crisis and let people decide what they want to use for vsthreads.
 
Amelia_Lonelyheart said:
I absolute agree that we shouldn't scale Pre and Post-Crisis things to each other, but the histories were not entirely rewritten. Some retcons were made, for example, Emerald Dawn retconned Hal becoming friends with Kilowog in his first week of training, when Kilowog didn't enter Hal's life til around #200 of his comic, but nariatively speaking, they're supposed to be largely the same.

I guess for bigger characters it's not as much of an issue because lke Stefano said, it can overstuff them, but I feel like more minor characters should not get split.

As for Superboy-Prime, only a very few amount of Post-Crisis characters scale to him at his peak, and they're all amped in some way so it wouldn't affect anyone else. I don't have a problem with them hitting 2-A for that reason.
Click to expand...
Bart Allen wasn't amped when he was stomping SB prime throughout especially as he has flashphobia
 
Well, the main issue here is that that Superboy-Prime and the emotional entities should scale to their own feats, not Pre-Crisis Superman. It would cause too great inconsistencies otherwise.
 
Amelia_Lonelyheart said:
I absolute agree that we shouldn't scale Pre and Post-Crisis things to each other, but the histories were not entirely rewritten. Some retcons were made, for example, Emerald Dawn retconned Hal becoming friends with Kilowog in his first week of training, when Kilowog didn't enter Hal's life til around #200 of his comic, but nariatively speaking, they're supposed to be largely the same.

I guess for bigger characters it's not as much of an issue because lke Stefano said, it can overstuff them, but I feel like more minor characters should not get split.

As for Superboy-Prime, only a very few amount of Post-Crisis characters scale to him at his peak, and they're all amped in some way so it wouldn't affect anyone else. I don't have a problem with them hitting 2-A for that reason.
Click to expand...
If this site had normal comic standards we would scale em to each other
But anyway, didn't the Prime fight specifically had pre crisis lose to him and post crisis win?
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
But anyway, didn't the Prime fight specifically had pre crisis lose to him and post crisis win?
Click to expand...
Post-Crisis only won because be used both Krypton's Red Sun.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

Otherwise Prime was literally stomping everyone both Justice League and the Green Lantern Corp.
 
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Da_Lunge_Fish said:
If this site had normal comic standards we would scale em to each other
But anyway, didn't the Prime fight specifically had pre crisis lose to him and post crisis win?
Click to expand...
Yes, but hs power varies on his emotions, and he was weakened via Red Sun Radiaton at that point.
Anyway I guess we can deal wth SBP in another thread. He is kind of a can of worms in of himself.
 
Yes, let's stick with upgrading the relevant Pre-Crisis characters only.

Also, we still need to properly analyse what Doctor Fate should scale to.
 
Pre-Crisis Barry Allen should definitely scale to at least 2-C, since he completely redirected the energy of the 2-C (possibly higher, but i'll explain that now) amount of energy the Anti Matter Cannon back into itself. I don't think it should scale any higher as it was just Anti Matter that was focused to hit the Netherverse, so its not really an AP thing just a range thing as mentioned before, but Barry did reverse the energy back on themselves, as explained in the comic.

Not really affecting the Post-Crisis incarnation, since he already scales to 2-A and higher with the Speed Force.

EDIT: Also, as i mentioned before, if Anti Monitor gets upgraded, we need to scale Wally as well since he actively harmed his armor that withstood the entirety of the JLA at that time. 2-A for Emotional Peaks and with the Speed Force.
 
And i agree, Post Crisis scaling can come later, outside of Wally who DIRECTLY had an encounter with a Pre-Crisis Anti Monitor at even higher strength than when he previously fought him, no other character is consistent enough to come anywhere near 2-C or 2-A, outside of maybe Hal and Barry and those guys have their own seperate 2-C feats that that dont require backscaling.

Lets just focus on the Pre-Crisis dudes and whatever scales to them, and then the Post-Crisis incarnations can be done whenever.
 
Jared1111 said:
That same issue does state that Dr Fate was able to approximate Superman's powers without much issue. But this was also clearly within the Silver Age of comics, and Superman hadn't gotten as strong as he would during the Later Bronze Age (Kerfuffles is correct about the early Bronze Age getting significantly depowered, but that went away the closer you got to the 70s and 80s.)

Also, another character we might add a page/key for is Martian Manhunter, since once Superman fought him in a dazed rage and not only did Martian Manhunter cause him to bleed, but Superman admitted they could fight for a century.

Also i don't know if i forgot to mention the Spectre, since when he's at his best he clearly outstrips Superman, even the Later Bronze Age one without question. The only reason its stated he couldn't defeat the Anti Monitor was because of an inbalance of Magic during the Crisis, by the time he fought the Dawn of Creation AM (who not only was juiced by the entirety of the Anti Matter Universe/Multiverse, but also the heroes themselves) he did need assistance against a dude with arguably 2x Multiversal power, and it's implied he could've stopped him at full power in a later story.
Click to expand...
Also, Superman fights Martian Manhunter in DC Comics Presents #27 and gets kicked around a bit before he decides to cheat with heat-vision to win.

My argument that Bronze Age Superman should be regarded as one entity, as least canon-wise, is that in spite of the awesome cosmic feats he performed in the later Bronze Age (part of the shift in storytelling technique) there was no canonical statement that he ever reclaimed the 1/3 of his power taken by the Quarrmer in Superman #242. Although there are plenty of (subjective) sources saying the depowering was ignored in practice, as a piece of canon it was never negated, and the Quarrmer's continued existence with that fraction of Superman's power was again confirmed in 1978's Superman vs. Shazam! one-shot.

Per pre-Crisis vs. post-Crisis for characters with minimal continuity alterations, I have little to contribute here, other than to remind that all existences which persevered through the Crisis were technically reformatted into the new reality, but that for some (e.g. Flash, Green Lantern) the impacts were significantly less dramatic than for others (e.g. Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (Shazam!), to a lesser extent Batman). But regardless of how much was changed, all extant individual existences that made it through the Crisis (with the exception of Power Girl, Pariah, Harbinger, Lady Quark, Alexander Luthor, Jr., Superboy-Prime, and Superman, Lois Lane, Robin, Green Arrow, and Huntress of Earth-Two) were reformatted into retroactive natives of the new reality, just the same.
 
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@Antvasima

Just to clarify, for the AM profile. We are going with the following for the first 2 keys, right?

At least 2-C, possibly 2-A. Higher with Absorbing Energy. 2-A via Anti-Matter Wave | 2-A with the Anti-Matter Universe Absorbed
 
Kerfuffles2 said:
Also, Superman fights Martian Manhunter in DC Comics Presents #27 and gets kicked around a bit before he decides to cheat with heat-vision to win.

My argument that Bronze Age Superman should be regarded as one entity, as least canon-wise, is that in spite of the awesome cosmic feats he performed in the later Bronze Age (part of the shift in storytelling technique) there was no canonical statement that he ever reclaimed the 1/3 of his power taken by the Quarrmer in Superman #242. Although there are plenty of (subjective) sources saying the depowering was ignored in practice, as a piece of canon it was never negated, and the Quarrmer's continued existence with that fraction of Superman's power was again confirmed in 1978's Superman vs. Shazam! one-shot.

Per pre-Crisis vs. post-Crisis for characters with minimal continuity alterations, I have little to contribute here, other than to remind that all existences which persevered through the Crisis were technically reformatted into the new reality, but that for some (e.g. Flash, Green Lantern) the impacts were significantly less dramatic than for others (e.g. Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (Shazam!), to a lesser extent Batman). But regardless of how much was changed, all extant individual existences that made it through the Crisis (with the exception of Power Girl, Pariah, Harbinger, Lady Quark, Alexander Luthor, Jr., Superboy-Prime, and Superman, Lois Lane, Robin, Green Arrow, and Huntress of Earth-Two) were reformatted into retroactive natives of the new reality, just the same.
Click to expand...
Yeah i agree, Martian Manhunter should blatantly scale to Superman since he was consistently a 1v1 threat, even Pre-Crisis.

I do agree that there never was a resolved issue within the comics of Supermans 1/3rd power, but the comics themselves blatantly show that the grew far more powerful and was able to perform far greater feats of strength than whatever he could do in the Silver Age (though his wackier abilities started to fade) either way it wouldn't really matter, as they'd still be the same tier.

Firestorm808 said:
@Antvasima

Just to clarify, for the AM profile. We are going with the following for the first 2 keys, right?

At least 2-C, possibly 2-A. Higher with Absorbing Energy. 2-A via Anti-Matter Wave | 2-A with the Anti-Matter Universe Absorbed
Click to expand...
I disagree with the "at least" portion. Anti Monitor not only has the most blatant 2-A feats in the series, he also heavily outstrips an already 2-C being like the Monitor who could perform 2-C feats at his absolute weakest, and through Harbinger. He heavily outstrips the Time Trapper, Mordru, Darkseid, Maaldor, and every other foe throughout the entirety of the series without much effort, and guys like Darkseid and Time Trapper are already having their own 2-A feats, and Darkseid considered Monitor a threat from the get go to prepare against the AM wave. Either way, he's still shown as absolutely the big bad of Pre-Crisis DC. His only low end was against Supergirl who literally had to push herself beyond what she had ever done before to even hurt the AM, and she was killed in one stray shot.

Also I don't agree with the AM wave being a separate key, in the way I wouldn't say the Kamehameha was a separate key. It's his own attack and it still scales to his 2-A abilities (unlike say GT's Dragon Fist which scales beyond his normal durability and AP)

However if everyone disagrees with that, the rest look fine.
 
Jared1111 said:
His only low end was against Supergirl who literally had to push herself beyond what she had ever done before to even hurt the AM, and she was killed in one stray shot.
Click to expand...
Sorry but i must disagree on that notion, Supergirl and Base Anti-Monitor were clearly potrayed to be around the same level, the latter was not holding back against Supergirl especially after destroy a good chuck of his armor.

 
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Stefano4444 said:
Sorry but i must disagree on that notion, Supergirl and Base Anti-Monitor were clearly potrayed to be around the same level, the latter was clearly not holding back against Supergirl especially after destroy a good chuck of his armor.

Click to expand...

You can see in those pages as soon as he got one good energy blast on her, she was instantly KO’d. She clearly is comparable and going all out, that’s clear, but AM was keeping up and once he got a clear shot she was finished.
 
I also think that the base level Anti-Monitor should probably get the same tier as Supergirl, but it depends on if he was portrayed as more powerful than other characters who had a straight 2-A rating.
 
Jared1111 said:
You can see in those pages as soon as he got one good energy blast on her, she was instantly KO’d. She clearly is comparable and going all out, that’s clear, but AM was keeping up and once he got a clear shot she was finished.
Click to expand...
Supergirl was still beat the s**t out of AM, and he only got a clear shot when Supergirl was distracted by Doctor Light.

Do you think he could had be able to do the same if Supergirl was only focus to the fight? That doesn't seen to be the case.

He even had to retreat to heal after that, as his armor was destroyed and he was weaken by the clash.

So i must disagree, Anti-Monitor in that instance wasn't potrayed as be above Supergirl, but rather were on equal level.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Supergirl was still beat the s**t out of AM, and he only got a clear shot when Supergirl was distracted by Doctor Light.

Do you think he could had be able to do the same if Supergirl was only focus to the fight? That doesn't seen to be the case.

He even had to retreat to heal after that, as his armor was destroyed and he was weaken by the clash.

So i must disagree, Anti-Monitor in that instance wasn't potrayed as be above Supergirl, but rather were on equal level.
Click to expand...
It absolutely would have seen how he was able to completely floor Superman when given the chance, Supergirl caught him by surprise and once she had destroyed a lot of his armor in a fight where she had fought more ferociously than ever before, but once he got his bearings all it took was one AM blast to kill her. (This is explained further in the official novel how he could’ve killed them both if he needed too quite easily)

kgCMsue.jpg


Obviously, Supergirl is comparable enough to wreck his armor and is absolutely on a near playing field, but the Anti Monitor even against a raging Supergirl (who again, in the novelization was literally throwing everything she had at him and was pushing her absolute limits) still wasn't enough to survive a direct hit from one of his attacks.

Even then, i don’t think it should scale to her regular tier since Supergirl was literally throwing everything she had in a rage, and the captions prove this. It was her absolute peak of power and that along with his scaling to a full-powered Monitor and Darkseid, Time Trapper being personally scared of his power (both of which are pretty definitively 2-A) I think a straight 2-A rating is most fair. Again, if i'm the minority on that, then thats fine we should go ahead with the available revisions. I just feel Darkseid, Time Trapper, Mordru, and the Anti Monitor should also be baseline 2-A because of how often they were shown as superior to the average Bronze Age Superman, and how Time Trapper was already a blatant 2-A and he was on par or outright weaker than Mordru, who was demonstrably weaker than Darkseid, who confirms he fears the Anti Monitor would destroy him and Apokolips if wasn't dealt with.

If i'm the only one, then i agree with the rest of the upgrades, they look good.
 
Being shown as superior to Superman's average rating does not automatically mean 2-A though.
 
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Antvasima said:
Being shown as superior to Superman's average rating, does not automatically mean 2-A though.
Click to expand...
I know, point was that he was obviously higher on a scale than Superman, and Supergirl needed to go stronger than she had ever gone before, with Superman remarking on how she was arguably even greater than him at that moment in the novelization, and she still died to a stray shot. Also, the scaling against guys like Time Trapper and Darkseid.

But i'll concede that if its the unpopular opinion, theres no reason to derail anymore, and we can just get these upgrades through for right now.
 
@Jared1111 You can simply make a thread later for why Base Anti-Monitor should be fully 2-A rather than just possibly 2-A.

If nobody else had other objection, i think we can start apply the changes to the profiles i mention before.
 
Yeah the upgrades look fine, only argument i would is not having a separate key for the AM wave since it kinda looks cluttered. The AM wave is his own power, and should just be folded under his normal explanation for "possibly 2-A".
 
I don't mind either, but we still have to figure out what to scale Doctor Fate to, based on his most notable feats, first.

Does his wiki page list any useful Pre-Crisis feats?
 
Okay. Please summarise the most impressive ones here.

Also, what about our current wiki page for him?
 
Shouldn't world forger alpheus get a possibly 2A also? Plus maybe a low 1C as his multiverse had apokalips?
Which could probably mean has its own version of the Sphere of gods.
 
Stefano4444 said:
This are all the Pre-Crisis feats that i found that could be useful.
Click to expand...
Well, defeating a Superman via his magic weakness does not scale, but withstanding blows from him probably should.

Also, wasn't there a scan of him making a better show against the Spectre than Pre-Crisis Superman did?
 
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