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Yea but I don’t think space was added
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Goku and Jiren minor WoV additions
- Thread starter Ganasto
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imposing his dimension's time over the area he's in or going into it himself (phasing, time stop, time skip, etc etc) or forcing other people into it (time cage)
Rez
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Give Goku and jiren void manip and NPI for NEP type 1
Vietthai96
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at best this could be Limited or Minor Void Manipulation, at worst this just upgrade their NPI. Toppo have solid Void Manip because the guy use Hakai and warp, change the World of Void. Also i think Grand Priest also should have Void Manipulation
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Not sure why he wouldn’t just have void manip seeing as he likely made it, so…
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My bad I worded it wrong I was referring to Jiren and Goku when I said minor void manip
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GP already has Void manipulation.
And I disagree, I literally see no reason to assume that this is NPI. For starters they didn't directly interact with nothingness, for them to have NPI, they should've directly touch it, destroy it, manipulate it, or warp it (like G.O.D Toppo) which should Grant them Void manipulation. Just shaking it is not enough, becouse there is zero proof that they would be able to touch/hit nothingness to begin with.
And I disagree, I literally see no reason to assume that this is NPI. For starters they didn't directly interact with nothingness, for them to have NPI, they should've directly touch it, destroy it, manipulate it, or warp it (like G.O.D Toppo) which should Grant them Void manipulation. Just shaking it is not enough, becouse there is zero proof that they would be able to touch/hit nothingness to begin with.
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He has possibly void manip via hakai, and how is shaking it not enough, if they can affect nothingness they should have NPI
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No, they haven't shown being able to touch nothingness, nor manipulate it, or warp it like Toppo did.
They went all out with their powers but they still couldn't destroy the void, nor their Ki blasts had any effect on the void.
At very BEST this limited NPI, and not combat applicable.
Nullflowerblush
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Hold on a minute—I don't know how I skipped over this—nobody (of course, excluding the Grand Priest) knows what the hell the World of Void is. Nobody is a reliable source on the matter.
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Beerus definitely knew what it was as he was the one that told goku about it
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It's not like they were trying to destroy the void itself, there's also supporting feats like blocking Hit's attacks and interacting with IZ. How wouldn't noticeably affecting a void described as without time and space and straight nothingness qualify for NPI
Nullflowerblush
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Interacting with an attack from another dimension is not the same as interacting with nothing.
Infinite Zamasu was the universe—he was definitely physical.
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Nor like they where trying, but they were going all out fighting, Jiren VS Goku, for example, and their Ki blasts did nothing to the void, unlike IZ, where Goku was indeed able to interact with him via Ki blasts.
Also, you can't equalize every NPI feat, one doesn't support the other.
Again, at very least this limited NPI and non combat applicable, they didn't directly touch nothingness, nor harm it, which disproves them having a solid NPI.
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I'm referring to IZ's possible AE and don't Hit's attacks have intangibility?
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I agree, TBH the non physical interactions should be scalable since it's done with their energy. Which is common among pretty much everyone in dragonball.
Touch - handle in order to manipulate, alter, or otherwise affect
Their energy was the direct connection which affected the world of void, to make it shake. It would be NPI they're moving it.
It's only a possibly on the profile
?? Interact -act in such a way as to have an effect on another
Touch - handle in order to manipulate, alter, or otherwise affect
Their energy was the direct connection which affected the world of void, to make it shake. It would be NPI they're moving it.
Infinte zamasu was in the sky the moment they hit him, their attacks were going through the sky untill they connected. At the moment they hit him he was not physical. They hit his essence.
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Nope, becouse nor they Ki blasts or punches made contact with the void, and I'm not gonna assume they would without further proof.
At least this is limited NPI/Void manipulation, and not combat applicable, becouse they are not directly harming the nothingness.
And debating this with you would be useless, as you always agree with every DB releated thing, so It would be useless.
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When Jiren was shaking the world of void the first time. Vegeta pointed out his energy specifically when the world of void was shaking.
Also
Contact - the state or condition of physical touching.
Touch - handle in order to manipulate, alter, or otherwise affect
Ethier way you put it semantics would define this situation as non physical interaction.
That's not true, it's just I think this site has the dragonball characters labeled inaccuratly. If there was thread trying to upgrade them to multiversal+ or something, I would disagree.
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Yes, and later on nor their Ki blasts or punches had any effect on the void, if it's not a Direct way of harm, like Goku's Ki blasts making contact with IZ, then this not a legit NPI feat, at most, Limited and non combat applicable, becouse there is no proof that neither Goku or Jiren would be able to even touch or make contact with a NEP type 1 being.
Anyway, I'm not gonna debate with you, I will wait for stuff input, you will keep defending DB character even if the proof for their ability is incorrect, anyway.
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I mean, all that matters is they made contact with non existence. Their ki is Able to be used in multiple ways. Like shaking the environment, using it in there punches, etc. If their energy hits something in one aspect, it definitely can in others. They can easily just be picking and choosing what to connect. It's not like toppos hakai ball warped the environment every time he launched it. Plus like I said, the definitions of these word would beget it being NPI.
Well the reason people would rebuke your points is if they think the premise of the thread is correct. I'm not unreasonable or not open to change of mind, I'm just using logic to propagate my points that I think are right.
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Shaking the WoV could just mean shaking the dimensional walls of it. Doesn't matter if there is nothing inside it (although there was some matter in the form of the stage and all). You can shake a filled water bottle, as well as an empty one.
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But can you actually define what those "dimensional walls" are even made out of. Plus there was visual showings of the wov being shaken. As well as statements of the "whole" wov and specifically not just the fighting stage being shaken, that's all aspects Furthermore, if you shake a water bottle, you're still shaking the water. So that's not the best analogy.
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They aren't "picking" selectively what to shake and what not, that's just a sideffect effect of they powering up.
Suppresed Jiren was the one who shaked the world of void, but later on, unlocking his hidden power in a anger attack against No.17, Frieza and Goku, he barely shaked the Battlefield, and mind you, in that state Jiren was hella stronger than in his previous state, so he wasn't even controling his power.
And again, later on, nor their punches and Ki blasts had any effect on the void, hell, they couldn't even touch the nothingness, and there is no proof that they can.
So, I'm not gonna assume something they have 0 feats of doing so.
Toppo's Hakai was just a demostration of his power which is not contradicted later, is just the effects of Hakai energy, which is a legit feat of void manip.
So this only qualifies for Limited NPI, not combat applicable.
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By the logic he's weaker than everyone before. Plus a part of getting stronger is gaining better ki control, this is one of toriyamas most basic statements, which I can link if you want. If they weren't controlling their ki at all the stage would've been completely destroyed.
We see his hakai ball just go through the environment without warping, so if we want to be pedantic. I could say it's not warping the same environment it did earlier, so its contradicted. I could just say jiren and goku shaking was a demostration of their power as well.
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You don't understand, PIS and contradictions exist buddy.
If later on Jiren powering up on a attack of anger, in which we saw he was completely crazy, he losed control, even he was going to kill Goku's friends, so that "Ki control" isn't an argument.
And again nor Goku or Jiren has shown to directly harm, interact, touch nothingness, so with lack of proof, is lack of proof, I won't go by assumptions.
At best this limited NPI as I said.
And the platform got also destroyed.
And yes, Toppo's Hakai did indeed warped he environment, and that's a property of his Hakai energy, It was a demostration.
After the environment was already warped, It took a different color, and that color lasted untill the end of the tournament, so I don't know what you mean by "warping the same environment he did earlier". Toppo's energy was just warping the environment to that specific color in the rest of the tournament, and after he was eliminated, the sideffect of the ability was permanent. So there isn't really a contradiction for his feat.
Yes, getting stronger is Ki control, but if you are Universe+, and you go completely mad, even forgetting to control your Ki, you can also destroy everything in your environment.
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It's not even contradiction really, unless you want to say dragonball characters being planet level is contradicted cause they don't blow up a city.
Wanting to murder someone and getting angry doesn't mean you're not controlling your ki
. Please enlightening me where it said he wasn't controlling his ki specifically, did the environment get a durability buff?The WOV is capable of being warped multiple times, seen by grand priest and toppo both doing it. You're saying it was demonstrated but why can't the other characters demonstrate as well? It seems you're selectively choosing. The hakai energy did certain things before it even warped. As well as after, by your logic It would be contradicted since he didn't demonstrate everytime. Like Goku and Jiren shaking the void.
If you're universe+ and was not controlling your ki. Im pretty sure the stage where even tien could destroy would be completely destroyed.
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didnt GP said something like he made the stage to match with their own universe gravity so they can be used to it. so there must be space
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AKM Sama is correct
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It's a property of Hakai energy.
It is contradicted, becouse later on, they Ki blasts and punches had 0 effect on the void.
Is a thing G.O.D.S and angels have.
You say it was their energy shaking the void, ok, wouldn't that apply to Ki blasts and other attacks to?...,they did nothing to the void, so there you have your contradiction.
Also, regardless, by lacks of feats, in a real fight, nor Goku or Jiren would be able to even touch a NEP Type 1 being let alone blast it, so this feat doesn't matter much.
Yes, it did certain things, like flying and impacting the Sky of the WOV, but at the end of the day, it warped regardless if It was of Toppo's Hakai aura or Hakai blast, it's a property of Hakai regardless.
Anyway, this feat would also be not combat applicable, just warping/changing color something isn't any form of harm.
Yes, later on the stage was destroyed, take in count that the arena was made by Katchin, an special Katchin made by GP.
Yes, Low tier characters were able to break it, but It wasn't that easy to actually. And clearly see how after Jiren loses his mind engage in the fight with MUI Goku, the platform gets completely destroyed.
So, again, you like or not, I repeat, this feat is limited NPI, and not combat applicable
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Nethier did the hakai energy, the hakai in multiple instances was roaming around and didn't warp anything. Before and after the warp feat. But this dosen't matter cause people can control their ki which I already proved.
I dont think their non physical interaction with non existence is all powerful. But the causality of it would beget the notion that they could interact with it is my point, the English language already debunk the idea that they don't have npi of that type at all. So if the nep of the type is just normal non existence like they affected, then they could affect it. Debunk the English language.
But how do we know it can do that??? It warped it one time. Just like how the world of void was shaken twice. If it's a property of hakai, then it's a property of ki at their level. This all going by your logic as well.
Why wouldn't it harm something? If you warp someone how do they survive that without other abilities?
there was still stage left in the fight. A non held back attack from a universe+ character Is universal +. That stage wouldnt be there at all.
It would be useful In situations though regardless, the English language shows that they interacted with it. So If they need to move like xemnas in a Battle who is non existence, they could. All that needs to be on their profiles is that they have npi of that type and state they shook non existence.
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Nope, Zero proof they would be able to, what you are just suggesting is a "burden proof fallacy" which is in the fallacy page of the wiki. To any significant harm, they should've shown their Ki blasts having any effect/making contact with the WoV, Touch it, or manipulate.
But "Shaking" it, is kinda useless, and probably won't count even as full/outright NPI, without further evidence of directly harming the Nonexistant with their energy.
Also, there wasn't ever mentioned that Jiren's energy interacted with the WoV.
Beerus was just amazed by feeling Jiren's Ki, he wasn't directly saying anything about Jiren's interacting with something, that's all.
Tf do you mean??? now you are suggesting that what Toppo did is power Null???
Was warped one time...,Yes and what??....,that just mean that the sideffect of Toppo's Hakai energy sphere was permanent, and is proven when the color of the WoV retained it's specific changed color untill the end of the tournament.
Yes, and that's is a inconsistency. The platform should've been completely vaporized by Uni+ levels of energy later on, but surprise!!!...., there was some arena left.
The fact that even Krilin tier characters were able to perform some destruction, and throw around pieces of the platform kinda makes this PIS, and more when you know that DBS has terrible writing and is full of plotholes.
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Shake - tremble or vibrate
Vibrate - move or cause to move continuously and rapidly to and fro.
This blanent proof, like I said, debunk the English language, they moved non existence.
If you warp someone in the physical realm, can they still move around and act normally without other powers? No, why would it be different for people with nep.
The point is you're trying to say since goku and jiren didn't do anything later its a contradiction. But hakai itself was shown not affecting the environment. You're logic would mean anyone who blew up a universe for example, that launched an attack that didn't blow up a city. Would not be universal and its contradiction, you need to be logically consistent.
You never proved he was not controlling his ki. Actually address this, it was never stated. The burden of proof is on you.
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Harming is kind if irrelevant, since this still qualifies for npi.
They were noting his energy, like vegeta said his "energy". Then they said the whole wov is shaking from this event.
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