Pokémon - Range scaling issues

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldn't a weaker attack have less energy to travel farther with?

Pokémon doesen't really work like this. It work with "more powerful = bigger", like always.

 

[LordGinSama]

Pretty sure your missing his point. If a lesser intense move doesn't require as much, that gives the user of the move more room to give that lesser intense move the same range as what they would do with a more intense move.

And how?? This doesn't make much sense, can you actually show me this like ever happening? A more intense attack is obviously going to have greater range than a less intense one. This is simple physics.

No, the calc for it is being used at this time now.

According to this thread the feat is still wrong but another thread was meant to be made for it. So again it's not really the best support to use.

 

[LordGinSama]

Pokémon doesen't really work like this. It work with "more powerful = bigger", like always.

So Pokémon just says **** physics? Gotcha.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And how?? This doesn't make much sense, can you actually show me this like ever happening? A more intense attack is obviously going to have greater range than a less intense one. This is simple physics.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. A more intense move and the range that move operates at requires a certain level of exertion put into it's use. So for a lower level move that doesn't need so much exertion as the former, it is easier for the user to do what they do with the former move with the latter move, since the latter doesnt require as much for it's use.

To say otherwise on this, is to basically ask us to prove that one can take what they put into a higher-costing move and use it in a lower-costing one.

According to this thread the feat is still wrong but another thread was meant to be made for it.

And that thread was debunked, by yours truly. Even if the feat needs more looking at (assuming thats the case), the feat in and of itself is still perfectly valid and is not getting thrown out entirely.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wouldn't a weaker attack have less energy to travel farther with?

Nope. As Strym pointed out already, the attack will do better when the user exerts more into the move. That should be fairly simple.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Actually it makes a lot of sense. A more intense move and the range that move operates at requires a certain level of exertion put into it's use. So for a lower level move that doesn't need so much exertion as the former, it is easier for the user to do what they do with the former move with the latter move, since the latter doesnt require as much for it's use.

To use thunderbolt vs thunder as an example, has the former ever traveled comparably as far as the latter? Afaik, only thunder has generated clouds or reached their height, and consistently at that. Does thunderbolt consistently reach those heights? If so, what you're saying holds just fine, but I don't know and need clarification.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To use thunderbolt vs thunder as an example, has the former ever traveled comparably as far as the latter? Afaik, only thunder has generated clouds or reached their height, and consistently at that. Does thunderbolt consistently reach those heights? if so, what you're saying holds just fine, but I don't know and need clarification.

Id say so. One example that comes to mind for this would be Ash's Pikachu, who actually used to know both thunderbolt and thunder in the earlier sagas of the anime.

Or that one battle Pikachu had with Spiritomb in d/p, where even when Pikachu was incredibly exhausted and could only unleash a small spark of thunderbolt, it reached cloud height in a matter of seconds.

 

[Imaginym]

My only issue with this is again, it needs to have a calculation before we give it a random label for range.

I agree, a calc would be nice.

And how exactly do we know they use the same moves to the same exact degree as other Pokémon? Further elaborate would be nice.

IIRC, we use Pokemon at their peak, because they're species profiles.
If we used them at their weakest, we'd be scaling fully evolved to the jobbers of their species, & it's a little counterintuitive for a Versus-relevant ability indexing to index them at their weakest, as opposed to at their most capable.
If we use them at their Average, we get the question of "What's average?", because not only is there Pokemon that lose to lower stages or seemingly very weak Pokemon, but there are ALSO Pokemon that win in battles we'd assume they have no business winning. Beating Legendaries, or 1st stages beating fully evolved Pokemon. The "average" would be very unclear & nebulous.

Hence, using them at their peak; Often, users want to know how capable something is at its peak -For the given form- hence, we assume very, if not the most capable versions of the species. Untrained because Trainer's Pokemon are notedly stronger than typical AND have all kinds of screwy wins & losses, so we have to be careful.

By this logic, if we're to assume them at their most capable, it can be assumed they should be capable of similar level of ranges.

If the other moves aren't using as intensity then that's just more of a reason why they shouldn't have that range. I've never seen a verse that handles range in such a fashion. If one attack using significantly more intensity and show cases range, then logically an attack with a lesser intensity would have lessee range.

Using attacks, or most kinds of powers, energy projection included, requires expending energy, obviously. Generally, energy can not be projected an infinite distance away, & fictional characters having arbitrary limits on their ranges in fiction isn't unheard of.
Likewise for more difficulty to project further away.
Often, more energy density means more power, & thus, more energy concentrated into a limited area; Ergo, something involving more energy concentrated in an area, something more intense, will have to be closer; Ergo, it could be easier to project lower intensity stuff further away.

So the weather would be an indirect consequence, and that seems more like a chain reaction at that point. So I'm not sure how that's applicable to direct attacks.

Except when they do it, setting up the weather is deliberate; It is the intended effect of the action.

As an example, using Electricity Manipulation to create a storm cloud a KM away is still using Electricity Manipulation, & if you can simeultaneously create a bunch more clouds in this manner at similar distances, it's reasonable to assume they can use that Electricity Manipulation to attack.
Especially if the point of setting up the weather is to set up an attack, or we've already seen them use this type of Manipulation to attack, especially if it's to attack with that kind of Manipulation.

That's a case by case basis, depending on the context.

I did say "often". & often, Pokemon that can use Hail or use Blizzard can manipulate Ice or Cold. Pokemon that can set up Sunny Day often have similar abilities, like projecting heat from their bodies, or knowing moves like Heat Wave.
Pokemon that can use Hurricane often know other Wind Manipulation moves like Gust, Whirlwind, Twister, etc.
It isn't always the case, but it frequently is.

This has a little bit more logical evidence, but how exactly do we know that all electrical (and so on and so forth.) all have the same exact range?

I wouldn't assume the exact range, but I might assume similar range until given evidence to the contrary, since moves of the same types tend to seem to have very similar or identical power sources, & while the power of moves may vary, an individual Pokemon's level of power should stay relatively consistent even when using moves of varied power; A Blastoise isn't gonna be multiple tiers weaker while using Bubble or Rapid Spin.
A strong character's weak attacks are still roughly on the level of that character, & the character is often a big influence on the power just as much as the technique is.

The issue here is what we need to figure what kind of distance.

We have calculations & estimates for a variety of moves & some feats. Not for all of the moves, & feats, of course, & while I can agree on a desire for more calcs/estimates.... but we often assume some level of comparability across groups of Pokemon species.

So if you say what "kind" of distance, I want to know what kind(s) of distance you think are missing.

So Pokémon just says **** physics? Gotcha.

Fiction breaks physics regularly. In real world physics, IIRC, fast enough movement generates explosions (Potentially nuclear ones, & by extension, radiation.), intense heat, among other effects, often to the point that durability becomes a lot less relevant as you approach higher speed.

Similarly, making cold from nothing is impossible IRL because it's the absence of heat; Aokiji would need to heat, if not superheat areas in removing their heat & move that heat somewhere else to cool things down.
Luffy's stretching & inflating probably violates some kind of conservation of matter laws. Not to mention I bet Haki screws with hardness/density.
& unless I'm mistaken becoming perfectly intangible should kill your physical body, on the assumption that your cells or molecules or atoms or whatever are no longer attached or such, similar to why some fiction analysts would argue teleporters are death traps.

Given fiction's abundant tendencies to not depict the consequences of real world physics, I don't understand your point in the quoted part of your post this part of my post is responding to.

 

[LordGinSama]

Actually it makes a lot of sense. A more intense move and the range that move operates at requires a certain level of exertion put into it's use.

Which again, doesn't make sense unless we assume that all Pokemon just don't follow the laws of physics for whatever reason. An attack with more intensity and force is going to be traveling at a further distance that one with less force and intensity. It's being pushed with a a lot more force, in turn increasing the distance it's going to be traveling. The greater release of speed and strength the greater the distance traveled.

So for a lower level move that doesn't need so much exertion as the former, it is easier for the user to do what they do with the former move with the latter move, since the latter doesnt require as much for it's use.

And I've already explained why this doesn't work. This ignores physics to an unimaginable degree and while you can argue "it's fiction." we still apply physics to fiction here. Unless Pokemon just ignore laws like that then I don't see how this acceptable.

To say otherwise on this, is to basically ask us to prove that one can take what they put into a higher-costing move and use it in a lower-costing one.

No, not at all. To say otherwise is asking you for direct proof that all of their attacks have the same range. As I said above the greater the release of speed and strength the greater the distance traveled.

And that thread was debunked, by yours truly. Even if the feat needs more looking at (assuming thats the case), the feat in and of itself is still perfectly valid and is not getting thrown out entirely.

And that thread didn't really seem to end, especially nearing the end. It doesn't look concluded, but rather forgotten about.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Id say so. One example that comes to mind for this would be Ash's Pikachu, who actually used to know both thunderbolt and thunder in the earlier sagas of the anime.

But how often did thunderbolt specifically reach the clouds?

Or that one battle Pikachu had with Spiritomb in d/p, where even when Pikachu was incredibly exhausted and could only unleash a small spark of thunderbolt, it reached cloud height in a matter of seconds.

What's the episode name? The only video I found was in a different language making it harder to tell the moves. Also, it hurt my eyes because the screen kept strobing, and I ain't watching four minutes of that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thunder is from the clouds since Gen 3

 

[Lightbuster30]

Thunder is from the clouds since Gen 3

I'm asking for examples of thunderbolt reaching the clouds, not thunder.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm asking for examples of thunderbolt reaching the clouds, not thunder.

I got confused, it doesen't lol

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[Imaginym]

But how often did thunderbolt specifically reach the clouds?

What's the episode name? The only video I found was in a different language making it harder to tell the moves. Also, it hurt my eyes because the screen kept strobing, and I ain't watching four minutes of that.

I believe it's this episode? https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/DP056
Bulbapedia is a great resource, since they list Major & Minor appearances for a Pokemon on the species's page, so you can easily find out which episodes featured, say, Spiritomb.

Similarly, they list anime & manga appearances for moves pretty much every time they notably appear, sometimes with a description. Thankfully, they don't list every time, so there isn't hundreds of entries for when Thunderbolt was used.

Thunderbolt (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

But if you wanna comb through Thunderbolt's anime depiction, it's an option. Also, Bulbapedia further makes this faster, by having a "Screenshots on Filb.de" section.
For example, for the ep I linked above in this post: https://www.filb.de/anime/dp/056
Filb.de doesn't screenshot every notable part of the episode, but they get a lot, so it can be a little helpful in searching episodes.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree, a calc would be nice.

Agreed.

IIRC, we use Pokemon at their peak, because they're species profiles.
If we used them at their weakest, we'd be scaling fully evolved to the jobbers of their species, & it's a little counterintuitive for a Versus-relevant ability indexing to index them at their weakest, as opposed to at their most capable.

Would that also be applicable to range as well?

If we use them at their Average, we get the question of "What's average?", because not only is there Pokemon that lose to lower stages or seemingly very weak Pokemon, but there are ALSO Pokemon that win in battles we'd assume they have no business winning. Beating Legendaries, or 1st stages beating fully evolved Pokemon. The "average" would be very unclear & nebulous.

In terms of speed and attack potency? Yes I can see that, but in terms of range scaling? I don't see how that's allowed, but feel free to enlighten me.

Hence, using them at their peak; Often, users want to know how capable something is at its peak -For the given form- hence, we assume very, if not the most capable versions of the species. Untrained because Trainer's Pokemon are notedly stronger than typical AND have all kinds of screwy wins & losses, so we have to be careful.

So peak meaning peak of all stats, including abilities, presets, range etc? Also if that were the case wouldn't they all have the same stats despite evolutions?

By this logic, if we're to assume them at their most capable, it can be assumed they should be capable of similar level of ranges.

The only issue I'm seeing here again is the correlation between stats and range. And also again, a lack of citation. Not to say that your being dishonest, but scans are highly appreciated in cases like this.

Using attacks, or most kinds of powers, energy projection included, requires expending energy, obviously. Generally, energy can not be projected an infinite distance away, & fictional characters having arbitrary limits on their ranges in fiction isn't unheard of.

And those cases are usually stated to be like that directly. Pokemon isn't really one of those verses.

Likewise for more difficulty to project further away.
Often, more energy density means more power, & thus, more energy concentrated into a limited area; Ergo, something involving more energy concentrated in an area, something more intense, will have to be closer; Ergo, it could be easier to project lower intensity stuff further away.

That's now how it works, an attack with more intensity behind it is going to travel a further distance than one without as much intensity behind it.

Except when they do it, setting up the weather is deliberate; It is the intended effect of the action.

And it's not the direct effect, and obviously its not like they can use cloud creation to attack with. Perhaps use clouds to attack with via using it as a medium of the sorts, that I can see. But this is still a bit different than Me snipping someone from a range.

As an example, using Electricity Manipulation to create a storm cloud a KM away is still using Electricity Manipulation, & if you can simeultaneously create a bunch more clouds in this manner at similar distances, it's reasonable to assume they can use that Electricity Manipulation to attack.

If they needed to create a cloud to attack with then I don't see them being able to attack with the same range with their Electricity, at least for direct attack such as from Point A to point B. This example is attacking from point A, to point B to point C with B being the medium used to travel through.

Especially if the point of setting up the weather is to set up an attack, or we've already seen them use this type of Manipulation to attack, especially if it's to attack with that kind of Manipulation.

I get where your coming from, but if they need to utilize clouds to attack from a distance then it isn't normal range, as they need to create some type of medium for their attacks to travel to.

I did say "often". & often, Pokemon that can use Hail or use Blizzard can manipulate Ice or Cold. Pokemon that can set up Sunny Day often have similar abilities, like projecting heat from their bodies, or knowing moves like Heat Wave.

Can their body heat also reach up to kilometers now?

Pokemon that can use Hurricane often know other Wind Manipulation moves like Gust, Whirlwind, Twister, etc.
It isn't always the case, but it frequently is.

So then again this should be a case by case basis and not all the time.

I wouldn't assume the exact range, but I might assume similar range until given evidence to the contrary, since moves of the same types tend to seem to have very similar or identical power sources, & while the power of moves may vary, an individual Pokemon's level of power should stay relatively consistent even when using moves of varied power; A Blastoise isn't gonna be multiple tiers weaker while using Bubble or Rapid Spin.

That'd Attack Potency not range so I fail to see the comparison there.

A strong character's weak attacks are still roughly on the level of that character, & the character is often a big influence on the power just as much as the technique is.

I've already reasoned to this, this has to do with attack potency, not range.

We have calculations & estimates for a variety of moves & some feats. Not for all of the moves, & feats, of course, & while I can agree on a desire for more calcs/estimates.... but we often assume some level of comparability across groups of Pokemon species.

And why would we assume as much? You haven't posted as to why they'd be comparable across all Pokémon species.

So if you say what "kind" of distance, I want to know what kind(s) of distance you think are missing.

The type of distance traveled, not sure how I can make that more clear for you.

Fiction breaks physics regularly. In real world physics, IIRC, fast enough movement generates explosions (Potentially nuclear ones, & by extension, radiation.), intense heat, among other effects, often to the point that durability becomes a lot less relevant as you approach higher speed.

Breaking =/= outright ignoring, and as much as fiction can break physics we still apply physics to them. We still appropriate light standards based upon physics done in fiction.

Similarly, making cold from nothing is impossible IRL because it's the absence of heat; Aokiji would need to heat, if not superheat areas in removing their heat & move that heat somewhere else to cool things down.
Luffy's stretching & inflating probably violates some kind of conservation of matter laws. Not to mention I bet Haki screws with hardness/density.

Actually Oda does a very good job at explaining his Logia stuff, I have a bunch of raw scans going into finer details from various databooks so this isn't a great comparison.

& unless I'm mistaken becoming perfectly intangible should kill your physical body, on the assumption that your cells or molecules or atoms or whatever are no longer attached or such, similar to why some fiction analysts would argue teleporters are death traps.

That much we ignore, and again this isn't dealing with an unconventional haxxed ability so lets not change the topic here.

Given fiction's abundant tendencies to not depict the consequences of real world physics, I don't understand your point in the quoted part of your post this part of my post is responding to.

Which is irrelevant, your trying to apply something that only happens on a base by base basis to quite literally everything in Pokemon. Fiction can break physics at time, but for a verse like Pokemon to be able to outright ignore basic physics is simply laughable with all due respect. They're very clearly bound by the laws of physics for the majority of the cast.

 

[LordGinSama]

all you heathen's are replying at identical times and it's giving me carpal tunnel responding to everything

yall is cruel.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Which again, doesn't make sense unless we assume that all Pokemon just don't follow the laws of physics for whatever reason.

This is a verse where fictional creatures based on either real world animals or are just entirely made up extraterrestrials hold elemental and supernatural abilities with a bunch of 10 year olds walking around fighting and collecting them. Id say we're well beyond the realm of where our physics can and cannot apply to them, but thats besides the main point.

An attack with more intensity and force is going to be traveling at a further distance that one with less force and intensity. It's being pushed with a a lot more force, in turn increasing the distance it's going to be traveling. The greater release of speed and strength the greater the distance traveled.

Yes, we know this already.

And I've already explained why this doesn't work. This ignores physics to an unimaginable degree and while you can argue "it's fiction." we still apply physics to fiction here. Unless Pokemon just ignore laws like that then I don't see how this acceptable.

Because this is somehow a random and, quite frankly, a silly interpretation to have to think that moves with less intensity and less requiring exertion cannot have more exertion applied to them than normally needed, if the user chooses to do so. And yes, we apply physics to fiction, where it makes sense to. But we also obviously have a clear line to draw in the sand to where it doesn't apply.

And Pokemon by no means is the only verse to do this sort of thing either. Not unless you find it strange for Goku to put more force behind non-Kamehameha KI blasts. Or Naruto putting more exertion into ordinary Rasengans. The list goes on, and on, and on, and on from here.

No, not at all. To say otherwise is asking you for direct proof that all of their attacks have the same range.

Yes, very much so. Covering it up with "Asking if their attacks have the same range" is just a cover up way to ask us to prove more force and exertion used for higher costing moves can be applied to lower-costing moves. Which s ridiculous.

And even then, asking for direct proof for everything every single step of the way is nitpicking.

And that thread didn't really seem to end, especially nearing the end. It doesn't look concluded, but rather forgotten about.

No, but the conclusion on whether or not the feat in and of itself stays was in fact concluded.

 

[LordGinSama]

This is a verse where fictional creatures based on either real world animals or are just entirely made up extraterrestrials hold elemental and supernatural abilities with a bunch of 10 year olds walking around fighting and collecting them. Id say we're well beyond the realm of where our physics can and cannot apply to them, but thats besides the main point.

Gonna ignore this part as a whole, if you wanna argue that Pokemon are immune to physics Manipulation then make a CRT. not gonna argue this anymore.

Yes, we know this already.

Seemingly we don't.

Because this is somehow a random and, quite frankly, a silly interpretation to have to think that moves with less intensity and less requiring exertion cannot have more exertion applied to them than normally needed, if the user chooses to do so.

And thankfully this isn't what I was arguing, I'm arguing on behalf of them attacking with weaker attacks having the same exact range as their strongest attacks. They can obviously apply more force behind it, but do you have proof that applying more force makes it = a much stronger attack with evidently higher range?

And yes, we apply physics to fiction, where it makes sense to. But we also obviously have a clear line to draw in the sand to where it doesn't apply.

And it wouldn't make sense just to ignore it here either, your just making empty blanket statements at this point that aren't even applicable to the topic at hand. Pokemon Cleary don't break the laws of physics or ignore drag, speed loss, etc. They're still bound to said laws, so unless you have literal scans of Pokémon outright ignoring physics then we're done here.

And Pokemon by no means is the only verse to do this sort of thing either. Not unless you find it strange for Goku to put more force behind non-Kamehameha KI blasts. Or Naruto putting more exertion into ordinary Rasengans. The list goes on, and on, and on, and on from here.

A Kamehameha has more range and AoE than his Ki Blasts so this example doesn't make sense. And what did I say about whatabouttism's earlier? Especially if they aren't even comparable.

Yes, very much so. Covering it up with "Asking if their attacks have the same range" is just a cover up way to ask us to prove more force and exertion used for higher costing moves can be applied to lower-costing moves. Which s ridiculous.

The Burden of Proof is literally on you, you made the claim and now you need to prove it with factual evidence. Don't get upset at me for asking you to prove a positive, this is how the wiki works.

And even then, asking for direct proof for everything every single step of the way is nitpicking.

Asking for evidence about a claim you made =/= nitpicking. Earlier you said it was a witch hunt, so now I suppose Asking for proof is the same thing as an organized attack? You're definitely overreacting here to be frank.

No, but the conclusion on whether or not the feat in and of itself stays was in fact concluded.

And at the end there was several variants of the calculation, and then the thread died. None of which you debunked. You debunked the OP, you didn't at all respond to the recalculations.

 

[LordGinSama]

Anyway, heading out for a bit so I'll respond to this later. At the end of the day the profiles still needs citation and need to be adjusted accordingly regardless of the outcome, which is the main purpose of this thread, not a downgrade.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Agree with this, unless the scans is show, and yeah, the profiles needs to be adjusted accordingly if this happens.

 

[Arceus0x]

idk about flamthrower's range, should be at least dozens of meters, but DAMN BOI IT'S WIIIIIIDE

 

[Arceus0x]

this has pokemon using moves and hitting from 100+ meters

 

[CloverDragon03]

this has pokemon using moves and hitting from 100+ meters

I can probably do a range calc from this.

Also, Pokemon that can use Thunder should have kilometers of range because they use cloud-to-ground lightning.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I got a range of hundreds of meters

 

[LordGinSama]

Thanks Dragon, that's a good starting point for us.

It's also worth noting that came from a Final Evolution Pokemon and a Middle Stage Evolution showing that not every Pokémon is capable of attacking from Kilometers away regardless of it's Evolution Stage.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Gonna ignore this part as a whole, if you wanna argue that Pokemon are immune to physics Manipulation then make a CRT. not gonna argue this anymore.

?? You're the only one here who mentioned anything about them "resisting" physics when thats obviously not what I said or suggested. Dont put words in my mouth please.

I simply said that there's an obvious line between where physics apply in Pokemon and where they don't, just like any fictional verse. This isn't new.

Seemingly we don't.

We do.

And thankfully this isn't what I was arguing, I'm arguing on behalf of them attacking with weaker attacks having the same exact range as their strongest attacks.

And we are saying they logically would when applying more exertion into said weaker attacks. To disagree with this, is to argue exactly that interpretation.

They can obviously apply more force behind it, but do you have proof that applying more force makes it = a much stronger attack with evidently higher range?

Is this an actual serious question?

And it wouldn't make sense just to ignore it here either, your just making empty blanket statements at this point that aren't even applicable to the topic at hand. Pokemon Cleary don't break the laws of physics or ignore drag, speed loss, etc. They're still bound to said laws, so unless you have literal scans of Pokémon outright ignoring physics then we're done here.

Bound to laws =/= bound to our laws. I dunno where you keep getting this random thinking that me, or anyone else here, was suggesting they resist or break the laws of physics, but you can kindly throw that out the window since that isn't what we're saying here. Or rather, what im saying here.

A Kamehameha has more range and AoE than his Ki Blasts so this example doesn't make sense. And what did I say about whatabouttism's earlier? Especially if they aren't even comparable.

This isn't even whataboutism since you blatantly missed the point I was trying to make. The point here is that a regular KI attack from Goku isn't going to be inferior to a Kamehameha, or a regular Rasengan from Naruto wouldnt be inferior to a more advanced form of the technique, if they apply more exertion into them.

Call "whataboutism" if you want, but it isn't even that since this is basic common sense 101. Has nothing to do with how different verses operates, any move with more applied exertion is going to be better and stronger than how it normally operates. How you can argue against that is beyond me.

The Burden of Proof is literally on you, you made the claim and now you need to prove it with factual evidence. Don't get upset at me for asking you to prove a positive, this is how the wiki works.

Yes, asking to prove a positive for sensible things is how this wiki works. Not holding your hand and spoon feeding you every bit of information for literally anything that common sense by itself doesnt answer for you.

There's a difference between asking for evidence and being blatantly dismissive.

Asking for evidence about a claim you made =/= nitpicking. Earlier you said it was a witch hunt, so now I suppose Asking for proof is the same thing as an organized attack? You're definitely overreacting here to be frank.

Downplaying and changing what I said doesnt mean you have a point Gin. I never said asking for evidence is nitpicking. I said asking for evidence for literally every little thing is nitpicking.

And at the end there was several variants of the calculation, and then the thread died. None of which you debunked. You debunked the OP, you didn't at all respond to the recalculations.

And okay? Means nothing about what I said before. Recalcing the feat and altering the result is one thing, but whether the feat in and of itself is actually usable is what im saying was debunked. The feat stays.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm not gonna entertain you any further by responding what you've wrote, I've already told you that I've said what I needed to say. If you wanna continue to pander then be my guest, I've provided my arguments and now I'm waiting for other users to decide on who they agree with. I don't have all day to argue with you and we just got an accepted feat which much lesser range than what your attempting to argue for, from 2 Pokemon, one Final Evolved and one Mid evolved. The vast majority also agree with the abundant issues present in this thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh wow, one single feat somehow magically proves everything you were saying. We should just pack it all up, apply the changes and close the thread then?

And for the record, my arguments at this current time aren't even explicitly in defense of the kilometer range. My arguments are to defend the points Imaginym and Strym brought up in this thread in defense of the scaling being done for the range.

 

[AKM sama]

109 comments

What's the TLDR so far?

 

[CloverDragon03]

109 comments

What's the TLDR so far?

I think it's mostly just a matter of actually having evidence for the current range ratings. I did a calculation resulting in hundreds of meters for middle and final stage Pokemon, but beyond that, I'm not sure.

 

[RisingIons]

Agree with the OP, should be a case by case basis which means project incoming.

 

[Arceus0x]

I believe that range should be rated like this:

Standard/extended meelee range, hundreds of meters, up to multiple kilometers with moves.

Electric ranged moves, psychic moves, beam moves such as hyper beam and so, weather manipulating moves, light based moves, earthquake inducing moves, those at least need to scale to kilometers (2-10+ as all those reach from cloud layers and up to dozens of kilometers away, such as piloswine's earthquake wiping out cities, lightning reaching clouds in seconds, casual psychic moves moving clouds around freely, light being light)

Basic ranged moves such as blast burn or razor plant, bullet seed or whatever all should scale to "at least hundreds of meters" as it is damb clear that the moves could've reached far more if there wasn't a bigass zygarde over there.

Overall:
-melee range
-hundreds of meters+ for basic ranged feats
-kilometers for psychic and electric types as well as beam moves and ground moves such as earthquake.

 

[Arceus0x]

That is, of course, unless someone can find more evidence

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I believe that range should be rated like this:

Standard/extended meelee range, hundreds of meters, up to multiple kilometers with moves.

Electric ranged moves, psychic moves, beam moves such as hyper beam and so, weather manipulating moves, light based moves, earthquake inducing moves, those at least need to scale to kilometers (2-10+ as all those reach from cloud layers and up to dozens of kilometers away, such as piloswine's earthquake wiping out cities, lightning reaching clouds in seconds, casual psychic moves moving clouds around freely, light being light)

Basic ranged moves such as blast burn or razor plant, bullet seed or whatever all should scale to "at least hundreds of meters" as it is damb clear that the moves could've reached far more if there wasn't a bigass zygarde over there.

Overall:
-melee range
-hundreds of meters+ for basic ranged feats
-kilometers for psychic and electric types as well as beam moves and ground moves such as earthquake.

Im good with this but I still personally think Strym's interpretation earlier should have this apply to all of the types (or most).

If multiple types all give moves that have big range, there shouldn't be any reason why the other typings would be any different when they have moves that are all very similar power sets.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Im good with this but I still personally think Strym's interpretation earlier should have this apply to all of the types (or most).

If multiple types all give moves that have big range, there shouldn't be any reason why the other typings would be any different when they have moves that are all very similar power sets.

He said beam moves, which basically includes beam moves of whatever type.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

He said beam moves, which basically includes beam moves of whatever type.

Ahh

 

[Arceus0x]

He said beam moves, which basically includes beam moves of whatever type.

I'm using Dragonair as reference. Basically beam moves such as Hyper beam are the ones i mean. Basically dark pulse, flash canon, signal beam (which is already light), solar beam (also light), dragon pulse. Overall beams that have the same mechanic as hyper beam and are made of energy. They have the exact same mechanic most of the time, aka, shooting once and then having to re-charge before firing again. They are pretty much the hyper beam of their typing and are of about the same power so it would make a lot of sense to scale them to that

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay then yeah, im good with Arceus's proposal.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm using Dragonair as reference. Basically beam moves such as Hyper beam are the ones i mean. Basically dark pulse, flash canon, signal beam (which is already light), solar beam (also light), dragon pulse. Overall beams that have the same mechanic as hyper beam and are made of energy. They have the exact same mechanic most of the time, aka, shooting once and then having to re-charge before firing again. They are pretty much the hyper beam of their typing and are of about the same power so it would make a lot of sense to scale them to that

Currently, I find no issue with this proposal.

Also, it should be noted that a few KMs for weather moves is range as diameter/radius, but for those moves, we also have range in square KM, too, where it's an area of several tens of KM.