Acausality for Han Jee-Han

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Very simple and very blatant, he outright states that his power exempt him from the world's causality.

This is in line with it warping reality to be game-like and creating matter out of nothing (which is normally impossible to beings besides gods in-verse due to natural laws).

 

[00potato]

Yep, seems good.

 

[Mister6ame6]

I agree with OP

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I agree however excuse me if I'm being stupid but what type of acausality would Han get? (I'll assume type 4).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I agree however excuse me if I'm being stupid but what type of acausality would Han get? (I'll assume type 4).

Type 4, yes.

 

[Epiccheev]

The quote seems straightforward, but now i'm curious about the context.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The quote seems straightforward, but now i'm curious about the context.

It's chapter 351 (it's on the gamer reddit, don't really want to post the link since technically its pirating stuff webtoon owns for english audiences). The context is that his power allows him to do a lot of things normally impossible in the world, like increasing his power at insane speed, and it allows him to create matter out of nothing (which also isn't supposedly possible), and that generally his power doesn't care about objects needing a source to be created, among others.

 

[Epiccheev]

I read the chapter, and the cause and effect quote's justification seemed odd, because accelerated development and creation aren't things that would give you acausality by themselves.

Are we sure the ability neglecting the cause and effect isn't just about "the gamer" letting him obtain certain effects (growing in power and skill/ creating objects/ making monsters drop things) while ignoring the cause( needing typical training/ needing the matter to create the objects)?

 

[00potato]

I mean that’s a very strange interpretation, especially since the effects still need caused in that case (the whole book is just grinding for power honestly, so it all has a cause and effect in that case.)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, his ability was previously established to outright warp reality, and the one granting it to him specifically controls the causality and fate of all people in the world.

Plus, last time a mention of causality manipulation came up, it was with a person so lucky that he could warp causality to end up with a good outcome.

Likewise, when he enslaved Yeonhwa, it was claimed that since his power was empowered by Gaia, one would need to become a transcended (which is someone who exists outside of the world's causality) to break it.

I can get those quotes tomorrow if you'd like me to, but it's Definitly consistent.

 

[Epiccheev]

If Gaia controls causality and fate on top of law manip, then yeah, i definitely agree.
With these quotes added to the profile/CRT as justification then i'd say it's perfect

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Got two quotes like that, I'll get them on imgur and post them in a bit.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The 1% is talking about a country's populace, as the supernatural folks can't get past that in numbers. (Season 4 episode 50, and season 4 episode 96)

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok, I'm lost, why is this Acausality? The quote in the OP sounds more like a resistance.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Neglecting something is not caring for/failing to uphold something.

He isn't being targeted by causality manip and saying "no thanks", his powers just don't conform to it, which is Acausality.

Resisting the natural causality of the world is Acausality to begin with.

 

[Ionliosite]

Neglecting something is not caring for/failing to uphold something.

Yeah, which falls under resistance.

He isn't being targeted by causality manip and saying "no thanks", his powers just don't conform to it, which is Acausality.

Not really, not conforming to causality can easily be causality manip on itself, which is how we treat Cú.

Resisting the natural causality of the world is Acausality to begin with.

Eh, no. Resisting causality is resistance to causality.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

His actions are unrestrained by cause and effect.

Our definition of acausality: Acausality is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character.

But, that is not the case here, and more specifically its a state of being caused by his powers. He is neglecting causality, because as The Gamer, he functions by his own rules.

No. It is not. Just, read the Acausality page. Resisting the warping if causality, is causality resistance. Ignoring the default causality of the world is not that.


The Gamer is a state of being. And his neglect of the world's causality allows his body to achieve effects normally impossible, which is what Gamer's Body is all about.

 

[Ionliosite]

His actions are unrestrained by cause and effect.

Proof of this? Since this isn't what the scan says.

But, that is not the case here, and more specifically its a state of being caused by his powers.

It being a state of being doesn't discount it from being a resistance.

He is neglecting causality, because as The Gamer, he functions by his own rules.

Again, proof?

No. It is not. Just, read the Acausality page. Resisting the warping if causality, is causality resistance. Ignoring the default causality of the world is not that.

I mean, no, ignoring causality would totally be resistance to causality, that's literally what that is.

The Gamer is a state of being. And his neglect of the world's causality allows his body to achieve effects normally impossible, which is what Gamer's Body is all about.

So, he isn't like this all the time? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here beyond that he's a reality warper.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What..? His powers neglect causality. What do you mean that's not what the scan says?

It literally says his power neglects the process of cause and effect... Again, did you not read Acausality page?

He also has the ability to negate foresight and precognition thanks to it, and ignored the above mentioned destiny warping luck when he blew off the hand of the blonde character who had it. I can get those two scans for extra proof, but that quote is pretty blatant.


But in-case you don't get it, ignoring the dedault causality of the world is Acausality, because Acausality is ignoring the causality that exists conventionally instead of active powers that warp it.

 

[Ionliosite]

What..? His powers neglect causality. What do you mean that's not what the scan says?

His powers neglecting causality is causality manip on itself, but that isn't the point. The point is that what you said on that post and what the scan say are two different things

It literally says his power neglects the process of cause and effect... Again, did you not read Acausality page?

I did, not sure how that affects anything.

He also has the ability to negate foresight and precognition thanks to it, and ignored the above mentioned destiny warping luck when he blew off the hand of the blonde character who had it. I can get those two scans for extra proof, but that quote is pretty blatant.

Depending on how these feats happened, it sounds like a far better justification for acausality than the first scan you showed.

But in-case you don't get it, ignoring the dedault causality of the world is Acausality, because Acausality is ignoring the causality that exists conventionally instead of active powers that warp it.

No, again, ignoring causality = resistance to causality.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'm a bit confused by the scan in the op cus it seems like he has a causality manipulation ability or more like to nullify causality.

Cus it says "my ability is to neglect causality through the power of the gamer". So it seems either like he can manipulate causality or that he can nullify causality.

Cus I mean acausality is not an ability.

 

[00potato]

I mean “the gamer” refers to all his abilities, even his body is technically part of it. All stem from that.
So it isn’t just a single ability, it applies to everything because everything he has is the gamer.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Acausality is resistance to causality.

Acausality, while potentially other things, is not being affected by the causality of the world, or others.

Han Jee-Han's powers make him ignore the logic of the world, and work by game logic, allowing him to progress at immense speed, create whole pocket dimensions of matter out of thin air, have "absolute" game mechanics such as a paralysis that is just impossible to resist regardless of mind resistance or precognition that automatically trumps changes caused by other precognition, etc. He is stated to gamify reality around him.

So, his power ignores the natural workings of reality, which is now without a doubt confirmed to include causality.

And the guy whose luck warps destiny/causality itself (quote above) was helpless against Han, getting his arm blown off in a fight.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm a bit confused by the scan in the op cus it seems like he has a causality manipulation ability or more like to nullify causality.

Cus it says "my ability is to neglect causality through the power of the gamer". So it seems either like he can manipulate causality or that he can nullify causality.

Cus I mean acausality is not an ability.

The Gamer is the ability that let's him view the world as a game. It includes stuff like his body not being wounded but just losing HP.

It's passive and can't be turned off, unless the one that granted it decides to turn it off.

 

[Ionliosite]

Acausality is resistance to causality.

Gonna answer to the rest in a bit, but want to adress this right now, since it's plain wrong. Resisting the effects of causality and not even being a part of it are two different things.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Gonna answer to the rest in a bit, but want to adress this right now, since it's plain wrong. Resisting the effects of causality and not even being a part of it are two different things.

Not being a part of it by defaults means being immune to its effects. The same way as lacking a soul or a mind is counted as resistance.

 

[Ionliosite]

Not being a part of it by defaults means being immune to its effects.

Not being part of it is Acausality, yes.

The same way as lacking a soul or a mind is counted as resistance.

No, lacking a soul or mind is Immunity, which is basically the NL Resistance.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Immunity is just full resistance, even the resistance profile claims so...

 

[Ionliosite]

Immunity is just full resistance, even the resistance profile claims so...

That's literally what I said, that it is NL Resistance...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Misunderstood what NL stood for, and you literally began the comment with "no" when mine is that they count as resistance.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The Gamer is the ability that let's him view the world as a game. It includes stuff like his body not being wounded but just losing HP.

It's passive and can't be turned off, unless the one that granted it decides to turn it off.

Still feels weird to consider Acausality a passive ability.

In the 2nd scans though, besides the:

"He is strong enough to ignore Gaia" (which is a bit weird as acausality has nothing to do with strength)

Seems a bit more fair.

 

[Nepuko]

....resisting causality on this scale is clearly being Acausal. Acausality is resisting it to a certain scale and degree. The very types of Acausality in the first time is due to the different scale of said Acausality.

So this is Acausality. I get that someone could resist their causality being changed while obeyind normal causality. But this is neglecting cause and effect in a way defying the laws of the world. Blatant Type 4.

Still feels weird to consider Acausality a passive ability.

I mean, not in my opinion but if it can help you get a clearer idea bruv, you can picture it as a "default state" now. The Acausality is a default state and not an ability you need to activate to resist causality. I believe your Desperados work the same, somewhat.

And Acausality Type 4 in the first place is pretty much "passive Causality and Fate resistance" after all. So it being a "passive ability" is kinda apt. It's something always activated so it's your "default state". idk if I answered the confusion

 

[Firephoenixearl]

....resisting causality on this scale is clearly being Acausal.

Ok so first of all that is wrong. You can have resistance to 1-A causality and still not be acausal. Acausal is not about what you resist, it's about how you resist it.

Acausality is resisting it to a certain scale and degree.

Acausality (type 4) is resisting it cus you are not even within the same system. It has nothing to do with the scale or degree.

The very types of Acausality in the first time is due to the different scale of said Acausality.

No, it's due to the form of acausality. Type 4 is not of a higher scale than type 1, 2 or 3. It is just different. The only acausality that works by scale is type 4 and 5. Cus type 5 is literally just a better type 4.

I get that someone could resist their causality being changed while obeyind normal causality.

That would actually be a much better example of type 4.

I mean, not in my opinion but if it can help you get a clearer idea bruv, you can picture it as a "default state" now. The Acausality is a default state and not an ability you need to activate to resist causality. I believe your Desperados work the same, somewhat.

Thing is "my desperados" are called "beings who transcend causality" straight up, what's confusing me is the fact that they call it an ability.

And Acausality Type 4 in the first place is pretty much "passive Causality and Fate resistance" after all.

What form of resistance isn't passive? Type 4 is not passive resistance, type 4 is resistance due to certain reasons. It's the reason that gets type 4, not the scale.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Han Jee-Han resists it, by his powers ignoring the cause and effect of te World, letting him to a lot of nonsensical actions varying from minor things like training with weighs despite that being harmful to one's body, to more extreme cases like ignoring the laws of reality and creating Kilometer sized dimensions out of thin air, having an infinitely renewable source of energy, etc. despite that normally being impossible.

The Gamer is an ability, yes, but it changes Han's state of being. He can't even get physically wounded, instead getting an HP loss.

By dictionary, "ability" is to have the means or skills to do something. And obviously, the wiki defines Acausality as an ability as well.

You can have the ability to ignore soul manipulation, because you lack a soul. Going off of that single word to say it is not acausality is extremely semantic to me.

If he ignored someone actively warping causality - which he did when he blew off the arm of the luck guy but that's besides the point - I'd agree that's just resistance. But ignoring the default causality of the world you are in is definitly type 4.

His powers also negate foresight and precognition, I'll get a scan for that too.

 

[Nepuko]

Ok so first of all that is wrong. You can have resistance to 1-A causality and still not be acausal. Acausal is not about what you resist, it's about how you resist it.

Not if the end result is the same. Resisting the laws on a scale of the entire world is operating on a system different than it is, which is straight up the definition of Acausality. The definition of Type 4 is that they "operate on a different system". If you don't operate/ignore the system of the world you're in you obviously qualify for it. It's ultimately the same thing, just like how Plot Manipulation for ex is ultimately Reality Manipulation.

Acausality (type 4) is resisting it cus you are not even within the same system. It has nothing to do with the scale or degree.

It does though. That's why Type 5 is a thing. And there is a sense of scale or else it'll be NLF. And well, more specifically, Type 4 is "Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality." Wether this effect is achieved by being "born" with it, being amped by someone to achieve it, or via resisting the laws of the world in such a fashion that it causes you to no longer operate under it, it all fits the definition brother. This is not resisting someone actively manipulating your causality, but you plain ignoring the default causality of the world. It can't get more Type 4 than this.

No, it's due to the form of acausality. Type 4 is not of a higher scale than type 1, 2 or 3. It is just different. The only acausality that works by scale is type 4 and 5. Cus type 5 is literally just a better type 4.

Oh yeah my bad on that, I specifically meant the last 2. And even more specifically, that Acausality has a "scale" in general that can vary. "is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character."

That would actually be a much better example of type 4.

In my opinion it would be a lesser one, as those don't operate on a different system and still obey causality on the scale of the world.

Thing is "my desperados" are called "beings who transcend causality" straight up, what's confusing me is the fact that they call it an ability.

Heh, I sensed before I saw your reply that you would quote-unquote that XD. As for the ability part, I genuinly do not understand what's confusing. Desperaradoes as beings who transcend causality, have the ability to ignore it. In other verses, characters with the ability to ignore causality make them transcend causality. Acausality is an ability in the first place. It's categorized as such XD. Listed under, y'know, Power and Abilities. And : "Acausality is the ability to act" ;-)


I agree with ricsi's post as well.

Anyways, got class and exams today, so I'll leave ya guys, Earl, Ricsi. Stay safe and healthy guys! (also wish me luck pls T_T)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Going off of that single word to say it is not acausality is extremely semantic to me

I never said it's not acausality cus of that though. I said it was a bit confusing. The "transcendential" thing seems pretty fine.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright.

Finding the precog stuff is pretty hard, because it's somewhere in those 150 chapters in season 4, so that'll some time.

Gist of it is that people with precog will act differently, changing the future. An enemy with precog will then have to have better precog and predict tlchanges to the future, and so on.

And then Han is just a wild card, who can't really be predicted, and his precog automatically trumps all others, because game mechanics>everyone else.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not if the end result is the same. Resisting the laws on a scale of the entire world is operating on a system different than it is

Absolutely not. That's just resistance.

It does though. That's why Type 5 is a thing.

Not what i was implying.

And there is a sense of scale or else it'll be NLF.

You took it in reverse. The scale doesn't mean you have acausality type 4. Not "acausality type 4 works regardless of scale". The reverse of a true statement isn't always true.

or via resisting the laws of the world in such a fashion that it causes you to no longer operate under it, it all fits the definition brother.

Nope.

Oh yeah my bad on that, I specifically meant the last 2. And even more specifically, that Acausality has a "scale" in general that can vary. "is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character."

As i said, you took what i said in reverse. If you resist causality, regardless of scale, that doesn't give acausality. That's what i said, acausality on the other hand does have a scale.

What i mean is it's not the potency that gives acausality it's the means.

In my opinion it would be a lesser one, as those don't operate on a different system and still obey causality on the scale of the world.

Oh i thought the "obeying" was a typo of "beyond" for some reason, my bad.

 

[Nepuko]

Welp I saw this before i started working so might as well answer it

Also I see you agreed anyway so this is more to resolve the misunderstandings.

Absolutely not. That's just resistance.

Which is also Acausality in this case. Context man.

Not what i was implying.

Maybe, but it doesn't change the state of things though.

You took it in reverse. The scale doesn't mean you have acausality type 4. Not "acausality type 4 works regardless of scale". The reverse of a true statement isn't always true.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. And I have a feeling you misunderstood mine as well XD.

Nope.

No U.

As i said, you took what i said in reverse. If you resist causality, regardless of scale, that doesn't give acausality. That's what i said, acausality on the other hand does have a scale.

I think you're starting to argue about an entirely different thing here. Ignoring causality on a certain scale that fits the definition of Type 4 grants you type 4. Do it regardless of scale is Type 5. My reply was me telling you that Acausality does have a scale. Yet you reply to my comment by the very point I argued for, I'm extremely confused.

Basically : Type 5 is ignoring the entire system. Type 4 is a lesser version of that, with varying scales. The definition of Type 4 : Ignoring and operating on a different causality system. The means of how to achieve that literally aren't relevant since the endgoal is what matters - the very definition. You have to operate on a different causality system/ignore it than the regular one. It doesn't matter if I turn into Superman and fly to my school, or if my take the bus to reach my school, in both cases I'm "in my school". You're arguing how they achieve that (how do I reach my school) when the most important point here is the effect itself (me being in my school).

What i mean is it's not the potency that gives acausality it's the means.

That's true for Type 1, 2 and 3, yeah. Not quite so in type 4 and 5 though. Type 4 is ignoring causality/operating in a different system on a certain scale(world or smth), Type 5 is being "lol brrrr" and doing that on the scale of the entire system. And the subject here is Type 4, not those first 3. But this is details.

Oh i thought the "obeying" was a typo of "beyond" for some reason, my bad.

It's aite bruv

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh welp, i could continue to argue a bit more on those, but i don't care enough to argue about hypothetical cases that aren't the current one. And i only came to give my opinion on Han Jee-Han.

Risci has never missed a rakudai CRT, so had to help the homie out.

Anyway i gave my input, i'll see ya.