Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Okay. So would I would disagree with Wind Fish scaling. It is 4-A, it's just environmental destruction,

 

[Qawsedf234]

You'd disagree with how the rating is presented but not the rating itself.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

@Setsuna_tenma

Thank you for your response.


What's your profile pic, btw?

anime pic of ravana

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You'd disagree with how the rating is presented but not the rating itself.

I'd say so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Going to need to point this out, dissolving a dimension is still destroying it, especially if it was done instantly. But Wind Fish is considered a glass cannon yes.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I still maintain that Majora having Low 2-C should at least be mentioned as possible since it is a valid interpretation of the quotes from the guides. Otherwise I don't have input on the rest.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Going to need to point this out, dissolving a dimension is still destroying it, especially if it was done instantly. But Wind Fish is considered a glass cannon yes.

Agree with DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Ari64-SP]

I know my opinion is late/kinda useless, but Ganon‘s moon feat is blatant visual effects, due to
a. Similar effects appearing around Hyrule castle (Warren pointed this out)
b. No evidence that the moon was moved, and how far, other than visual effects taken literally.
c. Moving the moon closer and further would not cause a blood moon, only a super moon.
d. No effect on the world is shown other than mobs respawning. If the moon were getting closer, the tides would change.
e. Staining the sky red, matches up quite well with visual effects.
f. If Hino, a guy who has been studying the phenomena for a good long while, said nothing along the lines of ,” we noticed that the moon appears to be growing closer when the blood moon appear,” I think we can rule out the moon actually moving.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Okay, so who's going to change the profiles??
I can edit the Twilight princess profiles

 

[Warren_Valion]

I think we are waiting for a few more people before accepting the CRT.

Although from what I see the consensus is either for the downgrades or neutral.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm fine with 4-A Windfish and Neutral on Calamity Ganon.

 

[Dust_Collector]

MMMMM I'll just bump this real quick.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera @Adem_Warlock69 @Da_Lunge_Fish @Matthew_Schroeder @YuriAkuto @Slacjow @The_real_cal_howard @Starter_Pack @I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die @AshenCrow777 @Ionliosite @Dargoo_Faust @Theglassman12 @Eficiente @Cyberblader90 @Foxthefox1000 @Rikimarox2 @Rocker1189 @Chariot190

Bumping this to close this long ass thread. Everyone, please give your total thoughts on the thread's contents and arguments to see if your opinion has changed.

Here is my (biased) basic summary of every argument.


Thank you.

Sure

Calamity Ganon:

• Downgrade: Ganon moving the Blood Moon during the event is nothing more than a visual meant to enrich the scary atmosphere (same as the music that plays) which is something Zelda games have done before (Foresaken Fortress always being night in WW; Light Morning showers at Hyrule Castle in TP; Raging Thunderstorms in OOT, etc), and there is nothing that proves otherwise both in the game and the lore.
• Keep the Same: Game Mechanics can't be aspects of the world (although I don't think this is true at all, again, look at music during the scene) so the moon moving can't be just a visual effect, and that it doesn't matter if the lore doesn't state something like this because the moon moving during the Blood Moon is not an important feature (Which I find kinda ridiculous, but whatever)

Majora:

• Downgrade: The context of the quotes don't infer 3-A to Low 2-C rating whatsoever and only refer to Termina in the sense of a country or a planet. And the most you can get from these quotes is range and hax, not AP.
• Keep the Same: If you take all the quotes and quilt them together, and make them work in tandem with one another to form context, you can get a possibly legitimate AP rating of 3-A to Low 2-C (Which I find highly disingenuous to the actual context of those quotes)

Wind Fish:

• Keep the Same: There is text saying that the dream that the Wind Fish created is more than just the island, but also the sea and sky, and thus it's logical to assume that he also created the stars in the alternate reality that we see be destroyed when he wakes up.
• Environmental Destruction: There is no belief to downgrade the Wind Fish that I see, but one person is trying to push that the Wind Fish waking up is Environmental Destruction (I don't really know how, but whatever)

Everything else was either agreed upon or solved elsewhere AFAIK.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Agree with downgrading calamity ganon and majora, idk about the Fish.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Can someone update the vote tally?

I am very busy right now.


Also, how many more revotes are necessary? From what I see, people seem to either agree with the downgrades that I was proposing or are very neutral, especially on the topic of the Wind Fish.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I agree with the downgrades.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Sorry for late response, wind fish can stay the same it obviously a 4-A feat.

Neutral on Ganondorf (botw) moon feat I'm more for keeping it but I also might get convinced.

And for Majora i can agree on a possible for it since context/tandems/however you want to call it supports its feat.


Main problem is that the town/country/planet/and universe are all called Termina.


So yeah remove it or keep it I'll go with what people have decided.

 

[Warren_Valion]

So you are for keeping 4-A Wind Fish and Neutral on the rest?

 

[AshenCrow777]

So you are for keeping 4-A Wind Fish and Neutral on the rest?

Yeah

 

[AGENTFURIOUS]

I concur, there just is not enough evidence to suggest calamity is even capable of doing this. It certainly does not coincide with the feet shown in the game, and it seems far more logical he is simply affecting the appearance of the moon in some way that literally making it come closer to the bloody planet.

 

[AGENTFURIOUS]

Bumper

 

[AGENTFURIOUS]

And Ganon actually held the entire triforce in Link to the Past but was still sealed for a fairly long period of time. He needed outside assistance to escape, which puts the universal rating into question. The Triforce was also not capable of killing Ganondorf after Ocarina of time, resorting to just flooding the entire planet, which did not work anyway. I am fairy confident that the Triforces current status is rather strange.

 

[AGENTFURIOUS]

And why are we counting the WindFishes dream as a normal creation foot, it could be an illusion or a manifestation of imagination not the creation of an actual physical realm?

 

[AGENTFURIOUS]

And notably, the Sacred realm is also called, Light world. Realm could be taken to imply a swath fo land instead of actual demension

 

[Warren_Valion]

Try to keep all comments in one large post, please.

Also, only bump 10-12 hours from the last post.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Being susceptible to sealing, doesn't really mean they aren't capable Universal/Multiversal feats normally. There could just be some very strong levels of power nullification. Though, it's already widely considered outlierish that Complete Triforce Ganon lost to the seven Wisemen despite it a 1/3rd Triforce Ganon being seen as unstoppable against the Sages. I'm suppose I'm more leaning towards Neutral on Calamity Ganon's feat, but if there's a way to calculate painting the sky red; though it's mostly just blocking out the sun's blue energy or other colored energy waves besides the red one.

It seems debatable whether or not Majora created Termina, but he did create the alternate reality containing a Sun. So At least High 4-C, the problem is Alternate Reality is something a lot of people strongly hammer as Alternate Universe. But I'd rather not be too pushy, so I'm basically going to perhaps At least High 4-C, likely/possibly 3-a/Low 2-C.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Any discussion of Complete Triforce Ganon from ALttP should be saved for another thread - please let's just finish this thread up for the love of God.

 

[Ari64-SP]

but if there's a way to calculate painting the sky red; though it's mostly just blocking out the sun's blue energy or other colored energy waves besides the red one.

yeah, but considering that the gasses in the atmosphere naturally scatter the blue light due to their shorter wave length, I doubt there is any way to find an actual value.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Just so you know, Shakaru made a huge blog defending uni zelda. I would recommend reading it. https://deathbattlefanon.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SuperSaiyan2Link/Legend_of_Zelda_Feats

 

[Warren_Valion]

Just so you know, Shakaru made a huge blog defending uni zelda. I would recommend reading it. https://deathbattlefanon.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SuperSaiyan2Link/Legend_of_Zelda_Feats

There is only one point that relates to the current discussion from this blog, and it was a point I have already refuted countless times.

Any other point should be saved for a different thread if used in the future - I know I personally have some words to say about his "Point 2"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was responding to AgentFurious mostly, but I agree that we should stay on topic. Pretty much everyone agrees Zant's feat and the Flurry Rush calc are bad, and people seem neutral to agreeing with Calamity Ganon's feat being removed; with some mixed thoughts on Majora. But people seem okay with Wind Fish's feat, Ganondorf's Moon level feat via Endless Night, and the PH Bombs?

 

[Warren_Valion]

From what I see, everyone who has come back is either neutral about the downgrades, or for them.

I think it would be appreciated to just go ahead and take action, finally concluding this thread.


I think enough people came back to give their thoughts and that no one else is really going to come at this point, so I would like to proceed.

 

[Warren_Valion]

From my quick count of the current ratings, after all the discussion was done and only some people came back, this is the tally for two biggest points that were hotly debated and left up to the people to decide:

Calamity Ganon Downgrade:
For: Warren_Valion, AGENTFURIOUS, Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera, Da_Lunge_Fish, Ari64-SP, LephyrTheRevanchist, Qawsedf234, Tony_di_bugalu, Theglassman12, Bobsican

Against: TriforcePower1, Cyberblader90

Neutral: AshenCrow777, Firestorm808, Setsuna_tenma, XSOULOFCINDERX, DarkDragonMedeus

Majora Downgrade:
For: Warren_Valion, Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera, Da_Lunge_Fish, Setsuna_tenma, LephyrTheRevanchist, Tony_di_bugalu, Theglassman12, Bobsican

Against: SSJRyu1, Cyberblader90

Neutral: AshenCrow777, XSOULOFCINDERX, DarkDragonMedeus (I think?)


Whatever the case, I feel like there are enough votes to go ahead with the downgrades.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I moved to neutral on the Calamity Ganon feat.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I moved to neutral on the Calamity Ganon feat.

Updated.

I feel that if the other people wanted to come and re-evaluate the thread, they would have by now.

Whatever the case, I think we can proceed. This seems to be enough votes, I think.


So what needs to be changed?

 

[Dust_Collector]

If nobody is gonna show back up I think the High 4-C stuff from Zant can get removed, and most people are either for downgrading Majora or don't care much either way so I think we can also probably get rid of that feat as well. Wind Fish seems fine to stay since most are neutral or agree with it staying (Although there's some contention about how exactly Demise and Hylia scale to it) and his 4-A feat will serve as the Triforces current tier until we make another thread for it being universal (Since we only treat the Sacred Realm/Dark World as solar system sized for some reason), the bombs I think are fine to stay, most people were either neutral or against downgrading those, and Calamity Ganon seems to be the same deal as Majora with most people agreeing with removing it or being neutral.

So Majora goes back to High 4-C, Wind Fish, Demise, and Hylia remain the same, the Triforce (Until we finally get universe sized sacred realm accepted) will go down to 4-A, and the High 7-A characters remain the same. In regards to the 5-A to High 4-C characters I'm not sure what exactly we'd rate them, ToP Ganondorf causing an endless night in Wind Waker is currently counted as a 5-C feat for stopping the planets rotation although I know quite a few people would disagree with that feat being anything but some form of time manipulation but that discussion can be saved for a later thread, he could probably be Low 5-B since we treat him as physically superior to the Four Giants but now that he doesn't have direct scaling/feats that are way above them to support him being stronger maybe we'll have to pull more proof for the ToP scaling above them. Calamity Ganon as of right now doesn't have any scaling beyond Master Sword stuff so him and BOTW cast will just be High 6-A.

In short:

• Majora: 3-A, likely Low 2-C > At least High 4-C via his realm with a sun
• Calamity Ganon and BOTW Link: At least 5-A > High 6-A via standard Master Sword scaling
• Triforce: 3-A, likely Low 2-C > At least 4-A via being far superior to the Wind Fish
• Everyone scaling to ToP Ganondorf and Zant: 5-A, likely High 4-C > Probably 5-C or Low 5-B for now via the earth stopping feat and Four Giants scaling, at worst they'd be at least High 6-A via standard Master Sword scaling
• Bombs and Wind Fish: Remain High 7-A and 4-A respectively

 

[Cyberblader90]

im also against downgrading majora

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

So, if High 4-C Zant is getting axed, why do I see it on his profile?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Not removed yet.