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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

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Creation feats via Reality Warping are viable for AP and the Wind Fish created the dimension that the island and the sea, sky, and stars reside in just by dreaming it into existence.

That's still 4-A AP via magic.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
The Wind Fish destroys his dream when he wakes up. We can use that if the creation part causes arguments.
Click to expand...
I think he is saying the destroying part is causing arguments.

Since it would be Environmental Destruction and not AP for some reason apparently. But like, he created it too, so it would still be 4-A, AFAIK.
 
ED is stuff like creating storms that cause little to no damage on that traditional level. Giving birth to realms and collapsing them just by waking up is AP.
 
You didn't get my point.
The Wind Fish created his own world and it's a fact, but we don't know how much time he needed for It and more than destroyed the world at the end of the game, he just dissolved the spell.
The Wind Fish never fought, so we can't say that his spells attacks are as strong as his creation spell, which created a world.
That's a light form of Environmental Descruction, again check the page:

"Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."

So we can't scale that to Hylia at all. I understand if Demise's creating a world scales to his normal attacks since he's a Demon king and his forte is destroying and not creating, but with the Wind Fish we're assuming too much things.
 
If he hakai's his own dimension, it scales to his AP. It's not Environmental destruction and I read the page. So it's a 4-A creation and a solid destruction feat, so Wind Fish is 4-A. And if Hylia is stronger, she would scale as well.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If he hakai's his own dimension, it scales to his AP. It's not Environmental destruction and I read the page. So it's a 4-A creation and a solid destruction feat, so Wind Fish is 4-A. And if Hylia is stronger, she would scale as well.
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The problem is that I don't see it as an hakai. The Wind Fish never says he's gonna destroy it, but it's more like him being sleeping keeps the spell active, by waking-up him he can dissolve/disactivate the spell, I don't know if you get what I mean.
Also, Demise created a world with just one sun, not with multiple stars, so even if we accept the feat as legit, it would be an outlier since the Demon King is stronger than the Wind Fish (lore-wise, as you admitted).
 
Stabilizing a pocket reality is very much an AP feat; because producing GBE in your sleep is passive AP. Azathoth is Tier 0 for similar reasons based on a similar power method. He destroys his own dimension just by waking up so Link can escape and return to his own world.
And that's not how outliers work. Demise' High 4-C feat is considerably casual and there's no 100% proof of the lore making Hylia superior to Wind Fish, only vague statements. Hence why possibly 4-A is accepted rather than outright 4-A. Wind Fish clearly scales to his own feat as it doesn't directly scale to anyone but him. A feat can only be an outlier if non-casual low end feats and/or anti-feats exist.
 
The Wind Fish is officialy a leviathan.
Other leviathans, such as Levias, Lord Jabu Jabu and the Ocean King never displayed such huge feats.
And Hylia is confirmed to be way stronger than Levias. So, that's an outlier to me.
 
Being the same race, doesn't make them equal. All Links are Hylains, but they all vary greatly in power. And not all Gorons are equal; they can vary from High 7-A to High 6-A. Levias is only High 6-A via his own feat and there's 0 proof of Wind Fish being as weak as him or other Leviathans.
 
It's not just the same race. They're all spirits of the same "rank". Lore-wise, it is kinda clear that the rank is this in the series:
Golden Goddesses
Hylia
Leviathans.

I don't see why you want to say that the Wind Fish is way stronger than his similars, since they have solid feats at the same level, see Levias and the Ocean King with the same Hihg 6-A ranking, also the Ocean King ruled over an ocean realm, in a way similar to Wind Fish, in some aspects. Also, I think all the Links share similar strength when they have the same age and the same weapons and I don't know which Gorons are High 6-A since Gorons's page only talks about High 7-A and we threat all people of the same specie as comprable to each other (all the hylian knights have the same rank, same for Gerudos etc...)
 
Ocean King never created his realm; that was the Golden Goddesses who did. And World of the Ocean King does appear to be a different flow of time; as it's an entire game but only 10 minutes in the World of Hyrule. Talking about some ancient Goron hero who slew Volvagia; our profile is mostly based on the Civilian Gorons. Gerudo also have characters that can vary in tier, most fight Iron Knuckles to be High 7-A, but Koume and Kotake are High 6-A via scaling. Wind Fish however actually creates his starry sky dimension and is literally the entire plot point of Link's Awakening HD which came out after Breath of the Wild or Skyward Sword no less.

If someone can create or destroy a 4-A realm, they can logically do it to a High 4-C realm easily. So Demise own High 4-C feat doesn't contradict 4-A as long as they're considerably above Wind Fish.
 
Something else to note about Demise is that he also wasn't at full power yet since he hadn't fully consumed Zeldas soul and regained his true strength, so him and Hylia being 4-A isn't too far fetched.
 
This thread is dying down, and because of the nature of this material, I think that it needs to be definitively concluded.

So can we work out a plan of action on how to conclude this CRT?
 
Best thing I think we can do now is get everyone who previously commented on the downgrades and ask them to read through all the new arguments and see where it goes from there.
 
Just gimme a few minutes and I'll try and have everyone who hasn't commented recently tagged, if push comes to shove I'll try messaging people directly.
 
 
Uhhh...only an staff member will actually notify them by using the tag feature, then again, so... can an staff member please repost the tags?
 
Bobsican said:
Uhhh...only an staff member will actually notify them by using the tag feature, then again, so... can an staff member please repost the tags?
Click to expand...
Huh, I could've sworn normal users could notify people by tagging them. Oh well, won't be hard for a staff member to just copy and paste my comment.
 
Sure

Calamity Ganon:

  • Downgrade: Ganon moving the Blood Moon during the event is nothing more than a visual meant to enrich the scary atmosphere (same as the music that plays) which is something Zelda games have done before (Foresaken Fortress always being night in WW; Light Morning showers at Hyrule Castle in TP; Raging Thunderstorms in OOT, etc), and there is nothing that proves otherwise both in the game and the lore.
  • Keep the Same: Game Mechanics can't be aspects of the world (although I don't think this is true at all, again, look at music during the scene) so the moon moving can't be just a visual effect, and that it doesn't matter if the lore doesn't state something like this because the moon moving during the Blood Moon is not an important feature (Which I find kinda ridiculous, but whatever)

Majora:
  • Downgrade: The context of the quotes don't infer 3-A to Low 2-C rating whatsoever and only refer to Termina in the sense of a country or a planet. And the most you can get from these quotes is range and hax, not AP.
  • Keep the Same: If you take all the quotes and quilt them together, and make them work in tandem with one another to form context, you can get a possibly legitimate AP rating of 3-A to Low 2-C (Which I find highly disingenuous to the actual context of those quotes)

Wind Fish:
  • Keep the Same: There is text saying that the dream that the Wind Fish created is more than just the island, but also the sea and sky, and thus it's logical to assume that he also created the stars in the alternate reality that we see be destroyed when he wakes up.
  • Environmental Destruction: There is no belief to downgrade the Wind Fish that I see, but one person is trying to push that the Wind Fish waking up is Environmental Destruction (I don't really know how, but whatever)


Everything else was either agreed upon or solved elsewhere AFAIK.
 
I don't really care about any of those feats tbh, but if I had to pick I'd say Blood Moon seems like a reasonable feat but it could also easily just be like a Gameplay Event, Majora's Stuff is really odd and Wind Fish should stay the same.
 
Warren_Valion said:
  • There is no belief to downgrade the Wind Fish that I see, but one person is trying to push that the Wind Fish waking up is Environmental Destruction (I don't really know how, but whatever)
Click to expand...
You could say that in a more respectful way I guess, like adding some of my arguments, lmao.
 
Lgamer099_99 said:
You could say that in a more respectful way I guess, like adding some of my arguments, lmao.
Click to expand...
I feel like my summary is pretty neutral.

But the main reason I didn't include any of your arguments is that I don't them (as I mentioned).

All I remember from what you said is that you read the Environmental Destruction page and you think that the Wind Fish destroying the dimension that he created should be ED instead of AP.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I don't really care about any of those feats tbh, but if I had to pick I'd say Blood Moon seems like a reasonable feat but it could also easily just be like a Gameplay Event, Majora's Stuff is really odd and Wind Fish should stay the same.
Click to expand...
So you would say that for Ganon and Majora you are neutral then?

If so, okay then.

Thank you for coming back and responding.
 
Warren_Valion said:
I feel like my summary is pretty neutral.

But the main reason I didn't include any of your arguments is that I don't them (as I mentioned).

All I remember from what you said is that you read the Environmental Destruction page and you think that the Wind Fish destroying the dimension that he created should be ED instead of AP.
Click to expand...
My argument is that:
The Wind Fish created his own dimension while sleeping, then when he woke up he dissolved (not destroyed, which is different) the spell and the "world" (like Asta's anti magic from black clover to give you an idea). Creating a dimension doesn't always scale to magic attacks if a character never displayed the ability to use the attacks with the same amount of power he used for create the dimension. Also, Levias, Lord Jabu-Jabu and the Ocean King who share the same kind of rank and role (they are patron deities) of the Wind Fish and are of the same species (they are all leviathans), never showed this kind of feats. They all have solid and consistent Multi-Continental Feats and are lore-wise under Hylia and Demise. (Demise created a dimension with just ONE sun)
You can't say that the Wind Fish shouldn't be comparable to the other leviathans, because in the Zelda's franchise all the beings who are of the same species and rank share similar strength (see the Great Fairies).
 
The Wind Fish creates the dimension through the magic of his dreams, which is a 4-A feat itself and would scale to his magic. This is stated directly by the Wind Fish:

"... ... ... I AM THE WIND FISH... LONG HAS BEEN MY SLUMBER... IN MY DREAMS... AN EGG APPEARED AND WAS SURROUNDED BY AN ISLAND, WITH PEOPLE, ANIMALS, AN ENTIRE WORLD! ... ... ... ... BUT, VERILY, IT BE THE NATURE OF DREAMS TO END! WHEN I DOST AWAKEN, KOHOLINT WILL BE GONE... ONLY THE MEMORY OF THIS DREAM LAND WILL EXIST IN THE WAKING WORLD... SOMEDAY, THOU MAY RECALL THIS ISLAND... THAT MEMORY MUST BE THE REAL DREAM WORLD... ... ... ... ... COME, Link ... LET US AWAKEN... TOGETHER!!"

This is pretty inarguably a 4-A feat.

Also what? The character doesn't even display the ability to attack, period. So it doesn't matter if "doesn't scale to his attacks", he possesses the ability to create a 4-A dimension, which is an AP feat. That's a fact.

Also, where are you getting that the Wind Fish is a patron deity, or that all those beings are all a part of the same species, that they are called Leviathans, especially someone like Jabu-Jabu? Levias' name is based on the word 'Leviathan' and both him and the Wind Fish are whale-like creatures, but that doesn't mean they are the same race, there are plenty of differences. They all look distanctly different, but even if they were the same species, it doesn't matter.

There are plenty of instances of one member of a species being radically more powerful than other members. Ah hello, Link or Ganon? Or any of the Champions in BotW? And we also don't know the complexities of the Fairy race's hierarchy to discern anything from it, so this is a false equivalency.

Demise created a dimension with a wave of his hand as an afterthought because he wanted a proper battleground for him and Link to fight undeterred because he respected Link's courage. He wasn't trying when made his creation and a casual High 4-C feat doesn't disprove that he could possibly or likely be 4-A whatsoever.

Whatever the case, the Wind Fish has two feats, creating a 4-A dimension and destroying it. Now if you want to say that it's destruction is "dissolving" and doesn't count as an AP feat, that's fine because he still has a 4-A feat of creating the dimension in the first place. Which Hylia and Demise should likely scale above.


I don't see the point of this argument whatsoever.
 
1. I am happy that you got what I meant with dissolving the dimension.
2. Botw's sources, such as creating a champion, officialy confirmes who and what are Leviathans.
3. Hylians and normal species are different, for example, I don't think that there is a strongest Giant between the 4 Giants in Majora's Mask, that is the same with the Leviathans, the fairies etc... (also, if there is a prodigy, stronger than others of the same race, it is something that is said in lore. Nothing lore-wise says that the Wind Fish was a prodigy for be a Leviathan)
4. I agree that he created his own world, but creating something doesn't always scale to someone's normal AP and can be classified as an Environmental Creation stuff.
"Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities"
Is Wind Fish's creation connected to his other abilites? No, because he never displayed other abilities, so that can't scale to Hylia at all.
 
That doesn't mean anything, and even if they are all the same race, they clearly aren't the exact same because they look different, and have different abilities.

Levias nor Jabu Jabu can create dimension spaces by dreaming, the fact that the Wind Fish can puts him league above the others.

And his creation is connected, it's fueled by his magic.
 
Dust_Collector said:
Ok, I'm pretty sure I got everyone who hasn't commented on the thread within the last couple of days, hopefully they'll arrive and give their thoughts and say if they've changed their minds on anything or not.

@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera @Adem_Warlock69 @Tony_di_bugalu @Da_Lunge_Fish @XSOULOFCINDERX @Matthew_Schroeder @YuriAkuto @Slacjow @Firestorm808 @The_real_cal_howard @Starter_Pack @I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die @AshenCrow777 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Ionliosite @Dargoo_Faust @Theglassman12 @SSJRyu1 @Eficiente @Cyberblader90 @Foxthefox1000 @Rikimarox2 @Setsuna_tenma @Rocker1189 @Chariot190
Click to expand...
Third time

I have not changed my mind.
 
@Lgamer099_99 is correct. Without proper evidence that they can funnel that power into an attack, creating something isn't an automatic AP rating. Though from what I know the Windfish doesn't do anything so its also not like we can tell which way is which.

As for the downgrades I'm for the Calamity Ganon one and Neutral/Negative on the Majora downgrade.
 
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