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Yeah, you can do that.
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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades
- Thread starter Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
- Start date
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- the legend of zelda
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Yes, malice is Ganon’s energy, but it’s not directly controlled by him, as Zelda’s still sealing him. That’s the main reason why Ganon didn’t just destroy Hyrule with the Divine Beasts.
In Goht’s case, the snow melted pretty much immediately, in a matter of minutes or even seconds. That’s just not how ice melts, regardless of how hot it is. And in Volvagia’s case, we very clearly see the dark clouds over Death Mountain being repelled away. These aren’t natural phenomena in the slightest.
Since we would just end up repeating ourselves if we went on with this, I’m just going to post my argument and then just leave it at the votes.
During the Blood Moon, we visibly see the moon shrink, indicating that it got away. The reason why I say this isn’t gameplay mechanics is because this movement doesn’t effect gameplay in the slightest and cannot be affected by gameplay. There’s also no hardware limitation involved. Reminder that I’m talking about the movement of the moon, not the blood moon itself. The moon moves because the developers wanted it to move.
Ganon is implied to not do this consciously, as the Blood Moon is caused by Malice that poured from Hyrule Castle, which Ganon cannot directly control because he’s still sealed by Zelda. Malice doesn’t blindly attract the moon, but merely moves it closer by a certain amount. If malice is capable of controlling things like Guardians without Ganon’s direct control, it’s definitely precise enough to do something like this.
This is basically my argument: It’s not gameplay mechanics and Ganon doesn’t need a reason to do it. The following two paragraphs are to clear up any possibility of a contradiction.
The reason the moon goes back to its place is the same reason Goht’s defeat causes snow on an entire mountain to melt in minutes/seconds or Volvagia’s death repelling dark clouds in seconds, and it’s just probably just caused by malice, just as it can make the moon come closer, it could also make the opposite. Point is, it’s not impossible for Malice to be the cause for the movement of the moon, and as long as it’s not impossible there’s no contradiction.
The reason it’s not mentioned in lore is because this is pretty much irrelevant in lore. The only reason we care is for power scaling, but for the normal player it’s not important, hence why Nintendo never cared enough to mention it. Anyway, lack of supplemental information doesn’t disprove the feat.
Have I forgotten anything?
In Goht’s case, the snow melted pretty much immediately, in a matter of minutes or even seconds. That’s just not how ice melts, regardless of how hot it is. And in Volvagia’s case, we very clearly see the dark clouds over Death Mountain being repelled away. These aren’t natural phenomena in the slightest.
Since we would just end up repeating ourselves if we went on with this, I’m just going to post my argument and then just leave it at the votes.
During the Blood Moon, we visibly see the moon shrink, indicating that it got away. The reason why I say this isn’t gameplay mechanics is because this movement doesn’t effect gameplay in the slightest and cannot be affected by gameplay. There’s also no hardware limitation involved. Reminder that I’m talking about the movement of the moon, not the blood moon itself. The moon moves because the developers wanted it to move.
Ganon is implied to not do this consciously, as the Blood Moon is caused by Malice that poured from Hyrule Castle, which Ganon cannot directly control because he’s still sealed by Zelda. Malice doesn’t blindly attract the moon, but merely moves it closer by a certain amount. If malice is capable of controlling things like Guardians without Ganon’s direct control, it’s definitely precise enough to do something like this.
This is basically my argument: It’s not gameplay mechanics and Ganon doesn’t need a reason to do it. The following two paragraphs are to clear up any possibility of a contradiction.
The reason the moon goes back to its place is the same reason Goht’s defeat causes snow on an entire mountain to melt in minutes/seconds or Volvagia’s death repelling dark clouds in seconds, and it’s just probably just caused by malice, just as it can make the moon come closer, it could also make the opposite. Point is, it’s not impossible for Malice to be the cause for the movement of the moon, and as long as it’s not impossible there’s no contradiction.
The reason it’s not mentioned in lore is because this is pretty much irrelevant in lore. The only reason we care is for power scaling, but for the normal player it’s not important, hence why Nintendo never cared enough to mention it. Anyway, lack of supplemental information doesn’t disprove the feat.
Have I forgotten anything?
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I just spent two hours on a rebuttal and it deleted it.
I am just going to focus on the points that really matter in my rewrite.
I am sad
I am just going to focus on the points that really matter in my rewrite.
I am sad
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Yeah, I hear you. I get that all the time.
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I am going to give you the same advice I once gave to Firephoenixearl: "Save everything that takes more than a single minute to write"
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Anyway, @TriforcePower1
Your Goht and Volvagia examples are a false equivalency and your evidence saying that it's not is a strawman.
I, nor anyone, ever said that what Goht or Volvagia are doing are naturally occurring phenomena. It still all magic, and it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility for magical ice and snow or magically created dark clouds to be erased instantly upon the death of the one creating them since their life is what sustains it.
You say there is no contradiction and thus, it can't be disproven, but your wrong, there is a contradiction - the examples you use aren't the same line of logic.
Let me explain.
Goht and Volvagia are the cause and what they are doing, creating endless snow and ice and some atmospheric effect with clouds, are the effects. Getting rid of the causes, erases the effects in these examples. That's the line of logic being applied to these two examples.
Calamity Ganon doesn't work on this line of logic.
Calamity Ganon (or his energy) is the cause, and the moon being pulled down is the effect of that cause. If getting rid of the cause, just got rid of the effect. Then all that would mean is that Ganon or his energy wouldn't pull on the moon anymore. While this does happen, it isn't the only thing that happens. It also reverses the moon's positioning back to what it was before. This line of logic would be getting rid of the cause, doesn't just get rid of the effect, but reverses it.
This is a separate line of logic that isn't compatible with the other one. It's a false equivalency. These are not the same thing, and the logic you are describing doesn't make sense when you are saying they are.
And on the topic of Ganon's Malice, I want to mention, but I don't see how Ganon's energy leaking out of a seal implies that the Blood Moon is an unconscious event caused by his energy. While Ganon is being limited and bound by a seal created by Zelda, said seal has been weakening since it was put up.
What infers that Ganon's energy leaking out means that he isn't aware that it's doing shit? He can just as easily be, and honestly, it's more believable if he is actively reviving his dead monster followers every time Zelda's seal weakens slightly, which would allow him to do so before she restrengthens the seal.
I don't get this line of logic, could you explain your reasoning?
About your game mechanics comments, according to the vs battle wiki page that you linked, Game Mechanics are "abilities shown in games that are determined by the rules of the game and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities". There is nothing saying they have to player/character-choices and options only to count whatsoever. The world is apart of the gameplay experience - timers and triggers are apart of the gameplay experience. The Blood Moon, and my arguments for why Ganon moving the moon during the Night of Red Moon isn't really happening, coincide with this definition completely.
Also, can you please explain to me how the moon looking like it's careening toward the planet at speeds faster than sound in an event called the Blood MOON would be "irrelevant to the lore" to the point where it wouldn't be mentioned or implied anywhere? Moon is the name of the event for Pete's sake.
It would most certainly not be irrelevant and it would at least be implied to be happening somewhere, you're just saying that it's not. Why would a book specifically created to describe the lore of a game in detail, leave out one of the most notable aspects of the Blood Moon when writing about it?
That doesn't make sense.
But forget about all that, because I need to ask you a question - and answer honestly:
Do you think that the music ('Omen of the Bloodly Moon') is also something that Ganon is causing?
Because where is the planetary-wide Sound Manipulation?
It's happening in the game, so it must be a real feat, right? It doesn't matter if it doesn't make any sense for Ganon or his energy to do this or that it isn't mentioned anywhere in the game, like why would anyone mention the world making creepy music on the night when the sky becomes red, right? Nor is it mentioned in any guidebooks because why would you describe something that's happening in your game when you're writing a guidebook for said game, right?
We hear it with our own ears, and since you can't control the Blood Moon, it cannot just be an effect to make the Blood Moon creepier, it has to be a real feat.
So chop chop *finger-snaps*, make it happen, guys.
Sorry if this is too sassy or sarcastic, it's hard to measure one's tolerance limits to these types of things, but I thought it was a fair point so I decided to include it. And I had fun writing it.
To focus on the point of this question - it's the same thing; the music and the moon moving are both effects to enhance the creepy atmosphere of the event. They aren't really occurring in the universe and they aren't real feats, and nothing proves otherwise.
And because of that, Calamity Ganon should be downgraded.
Your Goht and Volvagia examples are a false equivalency and your evidence saying that it's not is a strawman.
I, nor anyone, ever said that what Goht or Volvagia are doing are naturally occurring phenomena. It still all magic, and it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility for magical ice and snow or magically created dark clouds to be erased instantly upon the death of the one creating them since their life is what sustains it.
You say there is no contradiction and thus, it can't be disproven, but your wrong, there is a contradiction - the examples you use aren't the same line of logic.
Let me explain.
Goht and Volvagia are the cause and what they are doing, creating endless snow and ice and some atmospheric effect with clouds, are the effects. Getting rid of the causes, erases the effects in these examples. That's the line of logic being applied to these two examples.
Calamity Ganon doesn't work on this line of logic.
Calamity Ganon (or his energy) is the cause, and the moon being pulled down is the effect of that cause. If getting rid of the cause, just got rid of the effect. Then all that would mean is that Ganon or his energy wouldn't pull on the moon anymore. While this does happen, it isn't the only thing that happens. It also reverses the moon's positioning back to what it was before. This line of logic would be getting rid of the cause, doesn't just get rid of the effect, but reverses it.
This is a separate line of logic that isn't compatible with the other one. It's a false equivalency. These are not the same thing, and the logic you are describing doesn't make sense when you are saying they are.
And on the topic of Ganon's Malice, I want to mention, but I don't see how Ganon's energy leaking out of a seal implies that the Blood Moon is an unconscious event caused by his energy. While Ganon is being limited and bound by a seal created by Zelda, said seal has been weakening since it was put up.
What infers that Ganon's energy leaking out means that he isn't aware that it's doing shit? He can just as easily be, and honestly, it's more believable if he is actively reviving his dead monster followers every time Zelda's seal weakens slightly, which would allow him to do so before she restrengthens the seal.
I don't get this line of logic, could you explain your reasoning?
About your game mechanics comments, according to the vs battle wiki page that you linked, Game Mechanics are "abilities shown in games that are determined by the rules of the game and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities". There is nothing saying they have to player/character-choices and options only to count whatsoever. The world is apart of the gameplay experience - timers and triggers are apart of the gameplay experience. The Blood Moon, and my arguments for why Ganon moving the moon during the Night of Red Moon isn't really happening, coincide with this definition completely.
Also, can you please explain to me how the moon looking like it's careening toward the planet at speeds faster than sound in an event called the Blood MOON would be "irrelevant to the lore" to the point where it wouldn't be mentioned or implied anywhere? Moon is the name of the event for Pete's sake.
It would most certainly not be irrelevant and it would at least be implied to be happening somewhere, you're just saying that it's not. Why would a book specifically created to describe the lore of a game in detail, leave out one of the most notable aspects of the Blood Moon when writing about it?
That doesn't make sense.
But forget about all that, because I need to ask you a question - and answer honestly:
Do you think that the music ('Omen of the Bloodly Moon') is also something that Ganon is causing?
Because where is the planetary-wide Sound Manipulation?
It's happening in the game, so it must be a real feat, right? It doesn't matter if it doesn't make any sense for Ganon or his energy to do this or that it isn't mentioned anywhere in the game, like why would anyone mention the world making creepy music on the night when the sky becomes red, right? Nor is it mentioned in any guidebooks because why would you describe something that's happening in your game when you're writing a guidebook for said game, right?
We hear it with our own ears, and since you can't control the Blood Moon, it cannot just be an effect to make the Blood Moon creepier, it has to be a real feat.
So chop chop *finger-snaps*, make it happen, guys.
Sorry if this is too sassy or sarcastic, it's hard to measure one's tolerance limits to these types of things, but I thought it was a fair point so I decided to include it. And I had fun writing it.
To focus on the point of this question - it's the same thing; the music and the moon moving are both effects to enhance the creepy atmosphere of the event. They aren't really occurring in the universe and they aren't real feats, and nothing proves otherwise.
And because of that, Calamity Ganon should be downgraded.
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I don't know how, but as soon as I clicked "Post Reply" I get teleported to the Lifting Strengths Revisions, with all my work erased.
It was weird.
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So does anyone have the tally of votes so we can @ the people?
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“What infers that Ganon's energy leaking out means that he isn't aware that it's doing shit? He can just as easily be, and honestly, it's more believable if he is actively reviving his dead monster followers every time Zelda's seal weakens slightly, which would allow him to do so before she restrengthens the seal.”
“I don't get this line of logic, could you explain your reasoning?”
I mean, we see no indication of his control over malice getting stronger. Divine Beasts don’t become more hostile, monsters and corrupted guardians also don’t seem to change their behavior. The wording in the scan also implies this, as it’s always talking about Ganon’s malice creating the blood moon and doing things, and never Ganon himself. The weakening of the seal probably only allows him to release more malice rather than enhancing his control over it.
And about the music, while that would be awesome because we could give Guardians Fear Manipulation thanks to their theme, unfortunately all music in all media is considered... something that exists outside of the stoy by default (unless explicitly said to be part of the lore).
Going on debating would probably be useless. I’ve already said everything, so now we leave it at votes.
“I don't get this line of logic, could you explain your reasoning?”
I mean, we see no indication of his control over malice getting stronger. Divine Beasts don’t become more hostile, monsters and corrupted guardians also don’t seem to change their behavior. The wording in the scan also implies this, as it’s always talking about Ganon’s malice creating the blood moon and doing things, and never Ganon himself. The weakening of the seal probably only allows him to release more malice rather than enhancing his control over it.
And about the music, while that would be awesome because we could give Guardians Fear Manipulation thanks to their theme, unfortunately all music in all media is considered... something that exists outside of the stoy by default (unless explicitly said to be part of the lore).
Going on debating would probably be useless. I’ve already said everything, so now we leave it at votes.
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I am fine with leaving things to the votes. Feels topical, since I am an American.
Again, does anyone have a tally?
Again, does anyone have a tally?
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Changing vote in favor of the blood moon scaling staying
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@Warren_Valion As a side I feel it important to clarify some things directly pertaining to your arguments.
I understand that your claiming the quote "By entering it [a tunnel], you'll reach Woodfall, the bog where an ancient Deku temple lies submerged beneath the poison water. The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask." is just referring to the warped planet, but that's not what it says, it literally says "like everything else in the parallel Universe", not like everything else on the planet, or even everything else in Termina if you want to claim that could refer to the planet only, meaning that everything in the parallel Universe is corrupted, just like the the water and other changes to the planet on the same level.
I also feel the need to clarify that when they say "...the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time." would logically refer to the corruption he caused, and that it extends across space and time influencing even them. We know that he had similar levels of corruption across the Universe from the previous quote to substantiate that this space time manipulation is of Universal+ magnitude, as his influence is similar across everything in the Universe. Also claiming it is just the planet being referred to in this quote is clearly not accurate even within the quote itself since the moon, and the heavens are not part of the planet.
Finally we know he maintains this warped reality, which as the quotes state, extends across everything in the Universe, including space and time.
So it is factual to say that the quotes strongly imply he influences/taints everything in the Universe on a similar level to what we see on the planet or "Land of Termina", including all space and time, and sustains this warped reality till his death.
I feel Universe+ space and time manipulation (which is not a mere time stop, he is literally sustaining the Universe itself that he warped), coupled with Universe+ corruption, altering the cultures, races, history, landscape etc of the planet to fit his own warped idea of reality, and by extension the Universe since he has been directly stated to have similar corruption occurring with everything in the Universe, coupled with sustaining this alternate Universe to exist in his warped perspective is indicative of Low 2-C, and should give at least a possibly Low 2-C rating since it is a very significant possible rating.
Now I'm aware your likely going to try and claim I used multiple sources, but that's not going to change the facts presented in those sources, which I presented in context, which help substantiate each other as separate entities.
I understand that your claiming the quote "By entering it [a tunnel], you'll reach Woodfall, the bog where an ancient Deku temple lies submerged beneath the poison water. The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask." is just referring to the warped planet, but that's not what it says, it literally says "like everything else in the parallel Universe", not like everything else on the planet, or even everything else in Termina if you want to claim that could refer to the planet only, meaning that everything in the parallel Universe is corrupted, just like the the water and other changes to the planet on the same level.
I also feel the need to clarify that when they say "...the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time." would logically refer to the corruption he caused, and that it extends across space and time influencing even them. We know that he had similar levels of corruption across the Universe from the previous quote to substantiate that this space time manipulation is of Universal+ magnitude, as his influence is similar across everything in the Universe. Also claiming it is just the planet being referred to in this quote is clearly not accurate even within the quote itself since the moon, and the heavens are not part of the planet.
Finally we know he maintains this warped reality, which as the quotes state, extends across everything in the Universe, including space and time.
So it is factual to say that the quotes strongly imply he influences/taints everything in the Universe on a similar level to what we see on the planet or "Land of Termina", including all space and time, and sustains this warped reality till his death.
I feel Universe+ space and time manipulation (which is not a mere time stop, he is literally sustaining the Universe itself that he warped), coupled with Universe+ corruption, altering the cultures, races, history, landscape etc of the planet to fit his own warped idea of reality, and by extension the Universe since he has been directly stated to have similar corruption occurring with everything in the Universe, coupled with sustaining this alternate Universe to exist in his warped perspective is indicative of Low 2-C, and should give at least a possibly Low 2-C rating since it is a very significant possible rating.
Now I'm aware your likely going to try and claim I used multiple sources, but that's not going to change the facts presented in those sources, which I presented in context, which help substantiate each other as separate entities.
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No one here wants to continue to argue the same thing over and over again. The moment an argument gets circular - it is pointless to continue.
And Votes are how CRTs are accepted, every CRT is left up to votes.
Asking those who already voted to come back and reevaluate arguments isn't ushering anything, it's just a way to finish this.
And Votes are how CRTs are accepted, every CRT is left up to votes.
Asking those who already voted to come back and reevaluate arguments isn't ushering anything, it's just a way to finish this.
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Actually, it isn't about votes, more like if the outcome matches the balance of the wiki's system is what is to be determined. Votes are a side factor, but not the driving point. But I do agree that circular arguments solves nothing.
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I'm actually in support of High 4-C Zant with the reason being that when you defeat him, you're still in the warped space before he falls unconscious. When the cutscene starts, you're back in the throne room. Why would Zant just be like "damn I got defeated well time to teleport us back even though I was trying to stop you guys from moving forwards", especially while he's getting knocked out? It's more logical that his warping was ceased upon his defeat
IDK why anybody scaled shit to the Wind Fish to begin with, are people forgetting like....the entire plot of Link's Awakening?
IDK why anybody scaled shit to the Wind Fish to begin with, are people forgetting like....the entire plot of Link's Awakening?
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I agree with Zant, and what's wrong with the fish?
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Zant's feat still just more like he uses illusions to alter the backgrounds. And there's no mention that he created his realms or dimensions.
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There's no proof the sun is interactable, and it was randomly added in the Hero mode for decoration. And it contradicts the fact that Link's sword is still glowing, implying there is no real sun. Still.
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Yes, there's no proof the Sun itself is interactable, but everything else in the space is (such as the pillars, water, etc). IDK why Zant would make some things an illusion and others things not. Doesn't make much sense
I'm still firm on my belief for the Zant warping feat for my reasons above and I just wanted to say why as to give food for thought
I'm still firm on my belief for the Zant warping feat for my reasons above and I just wanted to say why as to give food for thought
Bobsican
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Sorry to tell you, but there's this "floppy disk" icon you can use to restore what you had written, it saves what you wrote on each thread automatically unless it's blank. It may be useful for the next time at least.
Anyways, I agree with the downgrades.
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Just because something is interactable, doesn't mean it isn't an illusion.
Good illusions are nearly indistinguishable from reality.
The fact that Master Sword still glows implies that Link isn't being teleported anywhere, but it also implies that the world and its physics aren't changing either. In the real world, with a real sun - the Master Sword doesn't glow with the Sols' light.
If Zant changed the room into a world with a Sun, which isn't supported anyway AFAIK, then the Master Sword wouldn't glow anymore with the Sols light because it would be bathing in real Sun Light.
Instead, it remains a beacon of light that it is in the Twilight Realm, a land bathed in Shadows. This gives even more credence to the "It's an illusion" theory.
Good illusions are nearly indistinguishable from reality.
The fact that Master Sword still glows implies that Link isn't being teleported anywhere, but it also implies that the world and its physics aren't changing either. In the real world, with a real sun - the Master Sword doesn't glow with the Sols' light.
If Zant changed the room into a world with a Sun, which isn't supported anyway AFAIK, then the Master Sword wouldn't glow anymore with the Sols light because it would be bathing in real Sun Light.
Instead, it remains a beacon of light that it is in the Twilight Realm, a land bathed in Shadows. This gives even more credence to the "It's an illusion" theory.
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Iirc the reason the Master Sword doesn't glow is because he's not in the Twilight Realm. If it was solely due to the Sun, it would glow in caves and at night, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't in either of those situations, at the very least not to the extent it does in the Twilight.
Also, I feel like I remember that in the thread that upgraded this in the first place there was something about Zant not showing any illusionary feats before this point, but him having a RW feat to back this up? I could be mistaken.
Am neutral on Zant btw.
Also, I feel like I remember that in the thread that upgraded this in the first place there was something about Zant not showing any illusionary feats before this point, but him having a RW feat to back this up? I could be mistaken.
Am neutral on Zant btw.
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I was speaking more theatrically about lands "bathed in light or shadow" as in referring to the two realms and not me saying that the Master Sword only glows in the dark, but anyway, what you are saying is that's essentially my point.
If he's warping reality, then the space that he is creating wouldn't be in the Twilight Realm, it would be a physical reality that is similar to the real world, meaning the sword wouldn't glow.
If he was just creating an illusion, he would still be in the Twilight Realm, and the sword still glowing makes more sense.
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.....no?
The reason Hyrule is not in Twilight is due to the protection of the light spirits.
for Zant to create a space similar to Hyrule, he would also need the Light intrinsic to those light spirits as well. The sun alone isn't the cause.
The reason Hyrule is not in Twilight is due to the protection of the light spirits.
for Zant to create a space similar to Hyrule, he would also need the Light intrinsic to those light spirits as well. The sun alone isn't the cause.
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The still exists in the world of light even if the sun sets; as the moon is bouncing the sun's light back to Earth, but as for the caves; it could be game mechanic limitations. The sword only glows in Twilight Realm because of the Sol orbs which are the only source of light in the Twilight Realm.
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Yes, it could be a mechanical limitation, just as it could be a simple oversight that the devs didn't bother fixing since it doesn't have gameplay ramifications.
Alternatively. the sword could simply not glow in the Light World, due to the influence of the Light Spirits which would permeate the entirety of the area, including caves.
However these are assumptions that are supported if, and only if, our arguments are true, and not the slightest bit the other way around.
>The sword only glows in Twilight Realm because of the Sol orbs
Yes, the sword is imbued with the power of the Sol orbs
which are the only source of light in the Twilight Realm.
And now the master sword as well, because it holds some of their light.
Also, the light from the Sol orbs, and the light from the Sun, probably have different supernatural properties considering that the light from the Sol orbs doesn't harm the Twili.
Alternatively. the sword could simply not glow in the Light World, due to the influence of the Light Spirits which would permeate the entirety of the area, including caves.
However these are assumptions that are supported if, and only if, our arguments are true, and not the slightest bit the other way around.
>The sword only glows in Twilight Realm because of the Sol orbs
Yes, the sword is imbued with the power of the Sol orbs
which are the only source of light in the Twilight Realm.
And now the master sword as well, because it holds some of their light.
Also, the light from the Sol orbs, and the light from the Sun, probably have different supernatural properties considering that the light from the Sol orbs doesn't harm the Twili.
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Sol orbs and the Sun are pretty directly compared to one another, I assume it's just that Sols are much weaker.
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They're much smaller, have no wear near as much mass, and definitely lack the GBE. It possess solar radiation and produces light similar to the sun, but that's about it.
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Still, what's wrong with the wind fish?
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I think that people who voted against the Wind Fish voted early and didn't see the arguments for it exactly.
I think it's pretty open-and-shut, to be honest.
I think it's pretty open-and-shut, to be honest.
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The fact that he never fought against someone and nothing proves that his creation feat scales to his other abilities?
Check the creation feats page: "Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."
So Wind Fish's feat is legit, but as Environmental Destruction, so it shouldn't scale to anyone else.
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It still scales to the Triforce due to being >>>> everything else in the series. So it doesn’t matter.
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I mean, Triforce itself has solid 3-A/Low 2-C statements and feats for me, but this is something for another thread.
Another thing I wanted to say is about Calamity Ganon, I agree with him moving the moon near to the planet, but in my opinion he doesn't move it back, so we should only use him moving it one time and use the in-game timeframe since it is the most legit one.
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You can't cherrypick a feat like that.
Either he's moving it or not.
Either he's moving it or not.
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Wind Fish is definitely 4-A, however, he is considered a glass cannon looking at his profile. Physically, he's only High 6-A scaling from Nightmares. But it was agreed Hylia and in turn Demise could be possibly 4-A via being above lesser deities such as Wind Fish.
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But if Wind Fish's feat is Environmental Destruction this means that you can argue for Hylia having higher Environmental Destruction power, but you can't scale It to her normal attacks for Demise and SS Link.
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Actually, it's more like Wind Fish's magic in general is 4-A, and I recall he actually destroys his dimension when you beat the game. Regardless of it not scaling to physicals, his magic AP is a solid 4-A. Unlike Wind Fish, Hylia actually has proof her physical stats are more or less on par with her magic as she traded blows with Demise.
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We literally never see Hylia vs Demise, how can you tell that the fight wasn't Hylia from distance vs Demise?
Also, the fact that Wind Fish destroyed the world he created doesn't mean that his magic in general Is 4-A.
It's called Environmental Descruction, there's the page about that topic.
Saying that Hylia Is 4-A It means assuming that the Wind Fish's magical attacks are 4-A when nothing proves It and assume how Hylia fought against Demise.
Also, the fact that Wind Fish destroyed the world he created doesn't mean that his magic in general Is 4-A.
It's called Environmental Descruction, there's the page about that topic.
Saying that Hylia Is 4-A It means assuming that the Wind Fish's magical attacks are 4-A when nothing proves It and assume how Hylia fought against Demise.
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