Fire of Dark ascends a Tree of Light (Meliodas vs Miroku Amagai)

I'm a bit curious about this one. Hopefully it's a good one.

Low 6-B forms.

Speed is equalized.

Battle takes place at WISE headquarters in Psyren.

Starting distance is 25 meters.

Who wins!?

Demon: 0

Psychicer: 0

Bump.

Bump.

Meliodas takes this due to Hellblaze, Purgatory fire nullifies up to Mid-High Regenerationn.

I would disagree with that reasoning.

Him spamming hellblaze isn't necessarily enough to get past trees of light that can spread for several kilometers. Especially given that he can spawn them from more diverse points than Meliodas can spawn his flames.

Miroku also can't really regen here anyway, since there's no people around.

Litentric Teon said:

I would disagree with that reasoning.
Him spamming hellblaze isn't necessarily enough to get past trees of light that can spread for several kilometers. Especially given that he can spawn them from more diverse points than Meliodas can spawn his flames.

Miroku also can't really regen here anyway, since there's no people around.

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How does trees can stop Hellblaze lol and he has Counter Vanish, he can vanish them anyway if they were created by his power and didn't exist beforehand

And Miroku can create more trees. Additionally, since Meliodas doesn't have PSI, he can't actually see the trees. And given their thorns, he could be easily punctured by them. Which would deposit a seed inside of him.

His trees can simply act as a physical barrier for hellblaze, seeing as how they have a similar durability to Hellblaze's AP. Or even punch through it given that he often fashions them into needle like attacks.

Also, Counter Vanish doesn't seem to be something Meliodas spams much in character. And I'm unsure if he's ever used Counter Vanish on an attack from multiple sides.

Also, what is Meliodas' AP?

Litentric Teon said:

And Miroku can create more trees. Additionally, since Meliodas doesn't have PSI, he can't actually see the trees. And given their thorns, he could be easily punctured by them. Which would deposit a seed inside of him.
His trees can simply act as a physical barrier for hellblaze, seeing as how they have a similar durability to Hellblaze's AP. Or even punch through it given that he often fashions them into needle like attacks.

Also, Counter Vanish doesn't seem to be something Meliodas spams much in character. And I'm unsure if he's ever used Counter Vanish on an attack from multiple sides.

Also, what is Meliodas' AP?

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He can spasm it as long as he can react to said attack and he has clones to that as well.

What do you mean by PSI? They are invincible?

Well, yeah. Miroku can spam his trees. And Meliodas can spam his flames. But how many times in the entire series has he used it? And on enemies comparable to him? I've read NNT, and I can recall maybe 3-5 instances at most where he's used it.

No. PSI is the energy of the Psyren verse. It's essentially psychic power gained when one's mental limiters on their brain are released. One needs PSI in order to see the psychic powers of another.

Though actually, if PSI is equal to Magic here, which it would have to be for Counter Vanish to work, then ignore that point. Meliodas would be able to see it with their energies equalized.

Also, please remind me of Meliodas' AP. As I'm fairly certain Miroku has the AP advantage here.

Litentric Teon said:

Well, yeah. Miroku can spam his trees. And Meliodas can spam his flames. But how many times in the entire series has he used it? And on enemies comparable to him? I've read NNT, and I can recall maybe 3-5 instances at most where he's used it.
No. PSI is the energy of the Psyren verse. It's essentially psychic power gained when one's mental limiters on their brain are released. One needs PSI in order to see the psychic powers of another.

Though actually, if PSI is equal to Magic here, which it would have to be for Counter Vanish to work, then ignore that point. Meliodas would be able to see it with their energies equalized.

Also, please remind me of Meliodas' AP. As I'm fairly certain Miroku has the AP advantage here.

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I dunno about his AP in his low 6-B tier, you gotta read the thread of revisions again in NNT page.

But with full counter, having more AP is actually a disavantage against you more for Meliodas as he has attack reflection + amplify said attack with more power than the original.

The stronger the attack, the more lethal and stronger the rebound of full counter is.

They are both low 6-B here.

I just looked at the verse page. He scales to around 2.7 teratons.

Miroku scales a good deal above 4 terratons. So likely about a 2x AP advantage.

Full Counter here to reflect the trees matters little since Miroku controls them. Meaning that he can, not only send them back, but maneuver them to attack from various angles since, iirc, full counter does not work on omnidirectional attacks. I doubt Meliodas will continue to use it once he realizes that Miroku can manipulate his sephiroth so easily.

Litentric Teon said:

I just looked at the verse page. He scales to around 2.7 teratons.
Miroku scales a good deal above 4 terratons. So likely about a 2x AP advantage.

Full Counter here to reflect the trees matters little since Miroku controls them. Meaning that he can, not only send them back, but maneuver them to attack from various angles since, iirc, full counter does not work on omnidirectional attacks. I doubt Meliodas will continue to use it once he realizes that Miroku can manipulate his sephiroth so easily.

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It doesn't matter that he can control them, Full Counter makes it that the tree will attack him instead as showed about the Holy Knight who had a similar technique was dominated by Full Counter

Covering omnidirectional attacks are useless as well thanks to his clones, they will cover those angles for him and they can all use Full Counter which is all they need to do here.

Scans, please? It's not like full counter wrestles control away from Miroku. It should be simple attack reflection.

His clones aren't as strong as the original. So Miroku, with higher AP, should be able to one shot them. Not to mention that he can toss out seeds that can sprout his trees from the ground as well, offering more angles to attack from.

But also, how often has Meliodas actually used his clones at his Low 6-B self?

Litentric Teon said:

Scans, please? It's not like full counter wrestles control away from Miroku. It should be simple attack reflection.
His clones aren't as strong as the original. So Miroku, with higher AP, should be able to one shot them. Not to mention that he can toss out seeds that can sprout his trees from the ground as well, offering more angles to attack from.

But also, how often has Meliodas actually used his clones at his Low 6-B self?

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That was when he invaded the kingdom when Diane throw him and a lot of Holy Knights attacked him at the same time, one of them was using tree like magic attack on him and the tree attacked him back and became bigger after the Full Counter.

Doesn't matter, the point is his attack will get full counter, only way for him to get rid of the clones is using physical strength, which if he try, the original will stop him and destroy in that department, don't think he can fight Meliodas physically on a physical hand to hand brawl.

Like I said, angle is usless as 4 clones can cover basically all angles possible for attack, he will probably stop once he realize that Meliodas can FC his attack back at him with more power.

How often, he use it when he is facing a spasmer like the dude that you are using here, that is the ability of his sacred treasure lol, are you implying that he is dumb enough to not use the right ability of his own arsenal? He used it to troll Fraudin and his opponent as well.

I thought that's what you were talking about. There's no evidence that those knights have any control over their magical discharges once they use them. Which isn't the case for Miroku. It's just attack reflection that makes the attack stronger. It doesn't wrestle control away from Miroku, so he should be plenty able to send it back. Not to mention that Miroku can just split the tree in half to attack from two sides right before Meliodas can swing his blade. Miroku's intelligence is extremely high. So little strategies like that certainly aren't beyond him. He'd certainly be able to figure out a slew of ways to counter.

Miroku definitely can. He has the AP advantage and can amplify his stats. Plus, it's not as though the clones are magically immune to any attack that's not a hand or foot. That's not the case at all. The clones have been stated to have power lesser than that of the original by a fairly significant amount. He uses it for more uses of full counter primarily, since that move isn't based on AP.

Angles are not suddenly useless just because he has clones. His clones cannot cover all possible angles that exist. Especially given that Sephiroth's whole thing is to literally split and attack from various angles. And Miroku likes to spread his seeds out to provide him with even more ways to attack. Not to mention that when Meliodas used his clones against the Albion, they were all facing the same way because of how large the attack was.

Um, no, lol. If Meliodas hasn't used it as his Low 6-B self, then it's not at all fair to assume that he'll use it here. Either it's IC for him to do so in this form, or it's not. If he hasn't used it while in this form, then there's no real reason to conclude that he'd just pull it out here when in his own verse he didn't. There are plenty of others in his verse that spam one or two types of magic.

Litentric Teon said:

I thought that's what you were talking about. There's no evidence that those knights have any control over their magical discharges once they use them. Which isn't the case for Miroku. It's just attack reflection that makes the attack stronger. It doesn't wrestle control away from Miroku, so he should be plenty able to send it back. Not to mention that Miroku can just split the tree in half to attack from two sides right before Meliodas can swing his blade. Miroku's intelligence is extremely high. So little strategies like that certainly aren't beyond him. He'd certainly be able to figure out a slew of ways to counter.
Miroku definitely can. He has the AP advantage and can amplify his stats. Plus, it's not as though the clones are magically immune to any attack that's not a hand or foot. That's not the case at all. The clones have been stated to have power lesser than that of the original by a fairly significant amount. He uses it for more uses of full counter primarily, since that move isn't based on AP.

Angles are not suddenly useless just because he has clones. His clones cannot cover all possible angles that exist. Especially given that Sephiroth's whole thing is to literally split and attack from various angles. And Miroku likes to spread his seeds out to provide him with even more ways to attack. Not to mention that when Meliodas used his clones against the Albion, they were all facing the same way because of how large the attack was.

Um, no, lol. If Meliodas hasn't used it as his Low 6-B self, then it's not at all fair to assume that he'll use it here. Either it's IC for him to do so in this form, or it's not. If he hasn't used it while in this form, then there's no real reason to conclude that he'd just pull it out here when in his own verse he didn't. There are plenty of others in his verse that spam one or two types of magic.

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It does actually when we saw the tree literally attacking back the sender. Speed is equal, therefore mean Mel can react enough to use Full Counter in continue as he did against Gilthunder chain of attack.

Actually, they are as long as they use Full Counter, they can use Counter vanish as well.

They does, whatever comes in front of him is FC, even invisible attack on conceptual level like Disaster.

He uses it when he literally got his sacred treasure and against an enemy with multiples attacks, same later on, so your assumption about him isn't correct.

I mean, yes, there's no stopping Mel from using full counter again. No argument on that. But that doesn't address the fact that Miroku can continuously send it back since Meliodas doesn't actually wrest control of the attack away from the sender. In NNT, if someone shoots a fireball, they no longer have control over that fireball. In Psyren, that is not the case. Everyone and their mom has a baseline form of telekinesis which allows them to control the trajectory of their attacks. Miroku can just continuously send it back at various angles without draining himself much. So FC means significantly less here.

Neither FC nor CV are AP based. The clones are weaker, it's literally said in verse. He specifically uses them for FC and CV because those aren't AP based techniques.

And attacks that come from both sides? From behind? Above? Below the ground? Attacks that happen one after the other with a gap too small for him to swing his sword? Miroku's intelligence would allow him to come up with a plethora of ways to get around FC.

I'm not assuming anything here, actually. I'd like some examples of him using FC, CV, or Lostvayne as his Low 6-B self. I understand that he can do these things, but will he is the question. Is it in character for him to do so? Scans are all that's really needed to prove this.

Also, if interested, would you mind taking a look at this thread. It's another NNT thread I made at the same time as this one.

Litentric Teon said:

I mean, yes, there's no stopping Mel from using full counter again. No argument on that. But that doesn't address the fact that Miroku can continuously send it back since Meliodas doesn't actually wrest control of the attack away from the sender. In NNT, if someone shoots a fireball, they no longer have control over that fireball. In Psyren, that is not the case. Everyone and their mom has a baseline form of telekinesis which allows them to control the trajectory of their attacks. Miroku can just continuously send it back at various angles without draining himself much. So FC means significantly less here.
Neither FC nor CV are AP based. The clones are weaker, it's literally said in verse. He specifically uses them for FC and CV because those aren't AP based techniques.

And attacks that come from both sides? From behind? Above? Below the ground? Attacks that happen one after the other with a gap too small for him to swing his sword? Miroku's intelligence would allow him to come up with a plethora of ways to get around FC.

I'm not assuming anything here, actually. I'd like some examples of him using FC, CV, or Lostvayne as his Low 6-B self. I understand that he can do these things, but will he is the question. Is it in character for him to do so? Scans are all that's really needed to prove this.

Also, if interested, would you mind taking a look at this thread. It's another NNT thread I made at the same time as this one.

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Then, they will play a ping pong match lol, the one who will outlast is Meliodas because of his ridiculous stamina and Full Counter basically no energy or magic to cast it unlike telekinesis.

Yeah they aren't, their characteristic is attack reflection and power nullication hax, they are weaker but not Full Counter which once again is the same regardless of Mel level.

Read the manga then, he use it as soon as he get his sacred treasure, on the commandments, on escanor.

I mean, full counter still requires him to swing the sword. An energy requirement. Telekinesis taxes the brain. An energy requirement. Yet both are relatively small. Generally speaking, however, Meliodas should have the stamina advantage.

I know, lol. That's literally what I'm saying.

I have read the manga, that's why I'm calling it into question specifically as this is Meliodas as his Low 6-B self. Not another variant that tends to bring out any aforementioned hax. If you say that he can and will do something, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate such. Especially since, iirc, for all the examples he listed he has yet to be Low 6-B.

Also, the other match does involve Escanor if you're interested.

Litentric Teon said:

I mean, full counter still requires him to swing the sword. An energy requirement. Telekinesis taxes the brain. An energy requirement. Yet both are relatively small. Generally speaking, however, Meliodas should have the stamina advantage.
I know, lol. That's literally what I'm saying.

I have read the manga, that's why I'm calling it into question specifically as this is Meliodas as his Low 6-B self. Not another variant that tends to bring out any aforementioned hax. If you say that he can and will do something, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate such. Especially since, iirc, for all the examples he listed he has yet to be Low 6-B.

Also, the other match does involve Escanor if you're interested.

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Are you serious? Are you saying that a mere swing from an arm will taxes him more than telekinesis? I can do that without stop until tomorow and I am not superhuman.

Are you serious?

Telekinesis taxes far more, there isn't any relative on that on the general rules, he is using his mind and mind controlling abilities general taxes on his psyche.

Why I do when Mel use when facing a spasmer? Most of the time, he faces people with physical strength, everyone know his FC and rarely attempt anything anyway, in vsbattle, you are the one using the characters according to the abilities that they have, not how they "behave" by the will of the author.

I can easily reply to you if your dude behave exactly in each time how you describe it, it will never end lol

You are basically killing the fun in vsbattle scenario from crossverse, you know that Meliodas can do it, then that is it.

It will be another story if he couldn't do it tho.

Please don't quote large bits of text. It clutters the thread.

Have you read Psyren? You cannot compare difficulty across verses like that. In some verses, conjuring fire can be done with a thought. In others, it's a power that takes decades to master. How much energy it requires is completely up to the mechanics of the verse. Comparing the energy required to use telekinesis to the energy required to swing a sword is completely arbitrary. Both are displayed to be casual feats that don't seem to take much thought to complete, so there's no real reason to assume they would take vastly different energies.

Secondly, this comes straight from the Standard Battle Assumptions Page, "In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."

The parts in bold are what are most important here. Meliodas is in character, with all of the flaws that accompany such. If he doesn't use CV that much IC, then he won't here. If he hasn't shown himself to use FC frequently in this form, then we do not assume that he will here. Hence, the burden of evidence is on you to demonstrate otherwise. Not simply make blanket statements and then say that a character won't behave a certain way because it's the "will of the author." In particular since the author is what gives a character their personality and battle tendencies in the first place.

Once again, simply because he can do it, doesn't mean he will. For example, Sanura Williams has the ability to control the minds of human beings. Yet she doesn't do this in character. Why? Because of her moral values. She only resorts to such in extreme circumstances. Meaning that in a battle against a human, mind manipulation will not be her go to move.

Tsunayoshi Sawada is another example. He has a lion whose roar can petrify those it comes in contact with. Yet he doesn't use this on actual people because he doesn't want to kill them. Thusly, even if a fight to the death, he would seek a different way to incapacitate his opponent.

So yes, even by VSbattle rules, it is very much not about what he can do, but about what he is willing to do given his character, flaws, and usual battle strategies.

In case it's unclear, I'm not actually arguing that Miroku will win. I just think that your original reasoning for Meliodas winning had flaws that I desired to address. For I could claim similar reasoning with, "Miroku spams his tree of light and Meliodas can't do lasting harm to him because he's made of energy gg." When the battle isn't that simple.