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So about DBZ Kai?

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AwkguyDB

AwkguyDB

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What exactly are all the contradictions for Kai that prevent Anime Super characters from scaling to them?

The proposal is simple:

Theses should be their own canons

Dragon Ball Official Citation Thread can be used for reference

The Mangaverse

DB minus => Jaco the Galactic Patrolmen => DB Manga => DBS Manga/ DBZ RoF Movie (Chou) => DBS Broly => DBS Manga Moro Arc(Chou)

The Original Toeiverse

DB anime/movies => DBZ anime/movies => DBGT

The New Toeiverse

DBS Broly origins => DB anime/ or manga => DBZ Kai anime => DBS anime => DBS Broly

The Heroesverse

All DB media (bar maybe Xenoverse) => Heroes (Promotionals/Games/Manga)

Xenoverse

All DB media (bar maybe Heroes) => Xenoverse (Xenoverse 1 and 2)

note #1: I don't really know if Heroes and XV are connected with one another but it seems that there are different events between the two so that is subject to change.

note #2: If the contradictions we talk about is as little as aesthetics or provide no substance to the plot then they should be ignored just like how we already ignore major plot points (ex. Roshi's moon feat is an outlier, we ignore the fact that Trunks was already a SSJ in the manga before Gohan died but clearly Super uses Toei's version to remind us how Trunks first became SSJ)
 
The only one I know is that Kai shows Freeza on Toeiverse Hell during the Boo Saga, and as you should know, Toeiverse Hell is vastly different from Canon Hell.
 
Ionliosite said:
The only one I know is that Kai shows Freeza on Toeiverse Hell during the Boo Saga, and as you should know, Toeiverse Hell is vastly different from Canon Hell.
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Yeah but its not like it's a major plot point is it not something we can over look?

Super the anime itself contradicts the manga with gregory showing up on King Kai's world.

Super was meant to follow the story post DBZ Kai and just because Toriyama forgot how hell looked, we render Kai as an invalid source?
 
Even Toriyama says Super is a continuation of the "Long Dragon Ball Anime Story."

"Dragon Ball Super" is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It's got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the "Battle of Gods" arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the "Revival of 'F'" arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I've written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe. They're fighting against their neighbors, Universe 6! They'll yell at me if I give away too many spoilers, so I'll keep the rest a secret, but they're chasing after giant Super Dragon Balls; I think things will unfold in a bright and simple way, that will be really fun and exciting!

Since it's another universe, loads of new characters will turn up. I'll do my best to draw the tons of character designs necessary, so I'm looking forward to this too.

You know, it suddenly occurs to me that somewhere along the line the Dragon Ball anime has become quite a huge story'. Since I'm the guy who drew the thing, it's a bit weird for me to say this, but when I first started out I never dreamed it would have a universe as a setting (laughs). Don't worry though, it's still going to be the same sort of easy-to-understand content as always. Please be sure to watch Dragon Ball Super on TV!

'source: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dragon-ball-super-complete-showcase-event-reveals-series-plot/
 
Atsushi Kido, says that DBS is suppose to carry on the DB anime's legacy

"When I joined Toei Animation, one of my first assignments saw me working on the production of Dragon Ball Z," said Atsushi Kido, producer for Toei Animation. "While there for only a short period of time, being a part of the series left a lasting impression. We look forward to carrying on Dragon Ball's tremendous legacy, bringing audiences a brand new Dragon Ball with the same sense of heart and commitment that went into past Dragon Ball productions."


Why can't we just chalk up Frieza and hell as apart of an outlier those filler scenes don't add anything supplimental
 
You... you know the quotes you're putting just put Super Anime in the same line as Toeiverse instead of Kai? Because they outright mention Dragon Ball Z, which is a Toeiverse-only name.
 
Ionliosite said:
You... you know the quotes you're putting just put Super Anime in the same line as Toeiverse instead of Kai? Because they outright mention Dragon Ball Z, which is a Toeiverse-only name.
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That makes me question why do we have the Super anime not follow Toeiverse ?
 
Because it isn't a sequel to Toeiverse, it is a sequel to Kai, but for some weird reason we consider it a sequel to the manga when that doesn't make sense.
 
Ionliosite said:
You... you know the quotes you're putting just put Super Anime in the same line as Toeiverse instead of Kai? Because they outright mention Dragon Ball Z, which is a Toeiverse-only name.
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But we can leave out the movies they each are like GT an alternate timeline of U7.

Just use Goku's Kai feats and statements and bar the stupid Hell filler I CRINGE LOOKING AT A SOLAR SYSTEM LEVEL BUU ARC XD
 
AwkguyDB said:
But we can leave out the movies they each are like GT an alternate timeline of U7.
Click to expand...
GT is outright non-canon, only other non-canon material such as Heroes and Online put it as alternate timeline, GT being an alternate timeline is directly contradicted by the Time Rings.
 
Ionliosite said:
Because it isn't a sequel to Toeiverse, it is a sequel to Kai, but for some weird reason we consider it a sequel to the manga when that doesn't make sense.
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Oh
 
I mean, I do consider Kai canon because of the statements about its making. But the reason we don't consider Kai canon on the site is because of contradiction between it and Super, such as Hell being totally different between one and the other.
 
So we just make a stupid note saying we don't consider any scenes related to DBZ Kai's hell but don't make it seem like the whole show and continuity is corrupt because literally 2 filler scenes in the Buu arc. Instead hell is depicted as the one in RoF and ToP.
 
Even though I don't disagree with DBS Anime following Kai, i think many discussions have been done over this and the standards are going to be impossible to change lmao.
 
Omegas03 said:
Even though I don't disagree with DBS Anime following Kai, i think many discussions have been done over this and the standards are going to be impossible to change lmao.
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It's only impossible if staff chooses to just be blatantly ignorant to the fact that just like Roshi's Moon level feat can be over looked easily as an outlier, even though its essential to the plot, Kai's inclusion of filler Hell is just as much of an outlier or small contradiction. That we can simply bat an eye to. Not like Buu was going to destroy Hell or the entirety of Other World where Kai needs hell for the plot. It was just added so that past villains can see Goku's progression. It was such an unimportant plot point that Atsushi Kido forgot about like Toriyama XD.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Well in the manga Future Trunks was a super saiyan before Gohan died but in the DBS anime there was a flashback where Trunks goes super saiyan after Gohan's death so, which was in Z.
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I got in a debate with someone over this they said it's no proof he didn't transform before that
 
Yeah okay now thats some BS the Manga and Anime Contradict each other so hard XD Trunks literally remembering the moment he first went Super Saiyan in the Anime was Gohan's death which completely contradicts the Manga.
 
Ionliosite


the super anime itself contradicts the original manga more times than even gt does so that's not a valid point for super being canon to the manga btw using consistency as a argument for canon is dumb not only because this is super were talking about but because consistency is never perfect look at db to dbz would not really say alot of changes made there would be consistent does that make ball non canon now.

if you need examples of super contradicting the manga look at ginyu being on earth and elder kai having beerus seal him despite stating it was someone around buu's level who did so in the manga another contradiction would be goku's age at the time of meeting gohan in the manga he was a newborn in super he was a toddler.
 
AwkguyDB


It's honestly a waste of time debating predetermined canon rules that make no sense and they would not put a note on the main page stating that exact thing if the scaling used here made sense but it don't.

the mods know this and they don't change it because it's the way it's ran here regardless of if it makes sense.


btw they literally state on the main page the way we do things here makes no sense but given the canon rules we have in regards to super it's the best we can do or as they put while the way we do things may not be perfect but it's the best we can do given the inconsistencies super has.


fact of the matter is the scaling issues had here is mostly caused by fusing unrelated canons eg the movies with the anime series and super with the manga continuity
 
XSOULOFCINDERX


It logically should not via statements from both the writers and anime staff but the mods honestly don't care about factually accuracy that's why they fuse the movies with the anime verse despite toriyama stating the movies take place in their own timeline.


there's also the fact super features anime only characters like gregory and hercule's henchman but ignoring those factoids will allow them to maintain their position so they do so because pleading ignorance is the only argument they have
 
The fact that they just slap everything together like that. I understand that if they were separated there would be a fuckton of different versions, but the movies don't correlate to the anime, the movies don't correlate to each other (except for Cooler, Turles, Slug and Hatchiyak.) and Super doesn't correlate to the manga.
 
At this point just remake the whole series and everything in that is the canon.


I am joking by the way
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
The fact that they just slap everything together like that. I understand that if they were separated there would be a fuckton of different versions, but the movies don't correlate to the anime, the movies don't correlate to each other (except for Cooler, Turles, Slug and Hatchiyak.) and Super doesn't correlate to the manga.
Click to expand...
To me you can sum up the Anime Movies following their own lines simply:

Deadzone (A what if story based on Goku and Piccolo killing Raditz)

World Strongest (If Goku arrived before Piccolo's death.)

Tree of Might (If Goku arrived before anyone died against the Saiyans or if Krillin, Gohan and Bulma retrived the DBs undetected on Namek)

Lord Slug (If Goku beat Frieza with the Super Spirit Bomb.)

Cooler's Revenge (Can fit with Slug's timeline since it was implied to be Goku's first SSJ transformation or if you ignore Goku not going SSJ from the jump can fit the main continuity.)

Cooler's Return ( a seperate sequel where it would have take place after the fusion with Kami as Dende was the new earth guardian. Piccolo had to of either killed the androids and/or Imperfect Cell.)

Super Android 13 (Could theoretically follow Cooler's return but not the main continuity.)

Broly Movie (HAS to take place before the Cell Games or in a time where Cell didn't reach perfection)

Eradicate The Saiyans (The events of ToM, LS, Cooler's Revenge, and Broly had to take place but Frieza being killed by Trunks contradicts the events of the previous movie bar broly and maybe cooler)

Bojack Unbound ( Takes place sometime after the Cell games; doesn't really contradict aside from Trunks' long hair XD)

Second Coming (Takes place post Cell Games and Goku had to be dead; but due to Goten recognizing Goku it would have to take place in timeline where Majin Buu was prevented from awakening or defeated immediately by Goku.)

Bio Hazard (This movie would have to take place Post Budokai Tenkaichi as 18 was hunting Hercule down for her money for throwing their Buu Saga fight but could be after Goku defeats Majin Buu)

Fusion Reborn (Gohan had to kill Buu in order for this movie to happen but every other movie in the franchise had to take place...........goodness.)

Wrath of the Dragon (Could fit with normal DBZ after the defeat of Kid Buu but lets ignore the Tapion Sword thing XD)

Overall the Movies are just a mess and the scaling is even worst but they do not need to be added to DBS Super as DBS Super strictly follows Kai which is the DBZ Anime without any ties or connections to the Movies or Toei exclusive stuff

oh yeah and

Yo Son Goku and Friends is completely Canon it even has its own Manga.
 
AwkguyDB

If your going by toriyama's statements the movies are all set in one timeline again he's just a audience member according to his own admission so maybe his word is not that valuable on this topic but he's still the creator of the series so his word does carry alot of weight and with no contradictory statements from takao there's no reason to assume toriyama is wrong

dragon ball super strictly follows kai explain gregory's appearance and the massive contradictions such as goku's age upon meeting gohan.

the anime staff also stated super continues dbz's anime legacy multiple times
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB
If your going by toriyama's statements the movies are all set in one timeline.

dragon ball super strictly follows kai explain gregory's appearance and the massive contradictions such as goku's age upon meeting gohan.

the anime staff also stated super continues dbz's anime legacy multiple times
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I agree that DBS strictly follows Kai and that Super carrries the animes legacy but the movies are so crazy its hard to see them fit in one single line
 
AwkguyDB

Never said the movies fit in to the anime timeline and the line about dbs following kai was a question not a agreement.

btw the movies are hard to fit into one timeline because their made as independent movies but if your going off of toriyama's statement about the subject he said they take place in one timeline so it's consistency or word of god

my point was if dbs followed kai then how could gregory appear and why is goku a toddler upon meeting gohan not a newborn.

i think dbs roughly follows the dbz anime roughly is the key word here because it contradicts so many details from the anime yet it's the only logical thing super could continue off of due to statements from the anime staff and evidence in the show itself.
 
AwkguyDB

Son Gohan or Grandpa Gohan that's who i'm refering too.

in dragon ball super broly goku meets gohan as a toddler in the orginal manga gohan adopts gohan as a newborn.
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB
Never said the movies fit in to the anime timeline and the line about dbs following kai was a question not a agreement.

btw the movies are hard to fit into one timeline because their made as independent movies but if your going off of toriyama's statement about the subject he said they take place in one timeline so it's consistency or word of god

my point was if dbs followed kai then how could gregory appear and why is goku a toddler upon meeting gohan not a newborn.

i think dbs roughly follows the dbz anime roughly is the key word here because it contradicts so many details from the anime yet it's the only logical thing super could continue off of due to statements from the anime staff and evidence in the show itself.
Click to expand...
Well okay Consistency > Author statements in this case.

I also agree that Kai is the best thing for Super to follow.
 
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