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Possible Dragon Ball (pre-Z) upgrade revolving around Kami

MeleeniumRXJ

MeleeniumRXJ

1,632
351
Shouldn't Kami be Moon level? After removing Goku's tail, he restored the Moon, and tiers are based on what can be created as well as destroyed. Creating a Moon should put him at Moon level, and it should probably put pre-Z Piccolo as well as Goku at Moon level.
 
We don't really know how in details. We just know that he did it. My guess is he did it with magic.
 
This seems to make sense to me, but needs more staff input.
 
MeleeniumRXJ said:
We don't really know how in details. We just know that he did it. My guess is he did it with magic.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that mean it would be more like Hax rather than actual energy consuming abilities?
 
So how would this affect our DB statistics ratings?
 
I mean, how would this affect our statistics scaling chains.
 
It's possible he did it with the Dragon Balls but that wouldn't change anything since the wishes they can grant are limited to his power.
 
MeleeniumRXJ said:
Why would that matter? That's like saying Dr. Strange can't fit into a tier because he uses magic.
Click to expand...
But magic is Dr strange's energy source isn't it?

It matters because if it was done without Ki which is the energy source for attacks, defence, speed amps etc. in Dragonball, then it can't be applied to his normal statistics as you can't prove he can put that amount of energy into his normal attacks
 
I believe it comes from him being almost as strong as Teen Goku and Piccolo.
 
It seems like this has been accepted then, but we need a plan for how this scaling affects the other characters.
 
MeleeniumRXJ said:
We don't really know how in details. We just know that he did it. My guess is he did it with magic.
Click to expand...
What was the actual statement? It's possible he did it with the help of dragon balls.

And dragons don't scale to Kami. They can do a lot more like recreating a planet, bringing back much stronger people from the dead, teleporting them across the universe, and altering the internal structure of stronger androids, none of which can be done by Kami, Guru or Dende. Dragons being as strong as their creators is just a bad plot device that has been contradicted many times in the show itself.
 
iirc it was never stated how he did it but the Dragon Balls are the logical conclusion imo.

And the Dragon Ball's limits are tied to the limits of their creator so it would still apply to him right? It's not really a bad plot device. Kami can't literally revive people, that's not an ability of his but again the Dragon Ball's are tied to his power, that's irrefutable.

Also, just want to add that Kami probably can teleport people around that distance (He teleported Goku from Snakeway Check-in station to Earth but I can't remember how far of a distance that is).
 
AKM sama said:
Kami can only teleport people between Enma's palace and his lookout because that falls under his powers as a god. That's all.
Click to expand...
Was that stated?

And he still teleported Goku a huge distance, it would be like saying Supreme Kai could only do it because it falls under his powers as a god and disregarding the feat.
 
Shenron cannot kill people stronger than Kami nor can he weaken them, but they can do slight alterations. And Shenron can only teleport people stronger than himself if it's not against the individual's free will; such as Goku wanting to continue training and knew about Shenron telepathically, thus didn't want to teleport to Earth too soon. Pointing out some details.

I agree that Shenron should not scale from his creators; especially since Shenron was meant to have lots of non-combat applicable powers. But the parts that would be combat applicable are not above their creators.

Also, it's false equivalency to compare Kami to Kaioshin. The Lookout possesses some kind of link/gateway to the afterlife that the Lookout's Guardian can use to teleport back and forth from the Lookout to the Afterlife. Kaioshin on the other hand can teleport to a wide variety of places.
 
No but we can't assume that he can teleport people anywhere. If that were the case, he would've teleported Goku right from the snake way to where the fight was happening, but he only did it from Enma's place to his lookout. And we never saw him, Guru or Dende teleport people, yet the dragons can. And my other points about recreating a planet, bringing back the dead, and removing 18's bomb also stand.

C4
He also knows firsthand that he and even Goku don't stand a chance against the Saiyans, yet he thinks their last ditch effort is to try wishing them away through Shenron, and that Shenron may have a chance, which means he obviously thinks Shenron > Goku or himself.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And Shenron can only teleport people if it's not against the individual's free will; such as Goku wanting to continue training and knew about Shenron telepathically, thus didn't want to teleport to Earth too soon. Pointing out some details.
Click to expand...
That's false too. Porunga did teleport a plethora of people against their will from Namek to Earth. Only Goku has shown that resistance.
 
Just to point out, Shenron is already rated above his creators as of now. He is 5-C when neither Kami nor Dende are.
 
I edited that comment to say more like stronger than Shenron. But actually, that was mainly because Goku used his Telepathy to say no to the teleportation. Which if anyone had telepathy on that range and told him not to teleport him, then Shenron will not teleport them.
 
Porunga never asked for the person's will while teleporting them on Namek tho. Dende made the wish and he just did, including stronger people. Nobody had any idea of what was going on. That's how dragons work.

The fact that the wish was made for Goku, Porunga paused and then said that Goku refused to come only tells us that Porunga tried as usual, but Goku resisted it and left Porunga a message to convey to the ones making the wish.
 
Shenron is a seperate entity to Kami, he clearly has knowledge etc that his creator doesn't e.g in the case of knowing about the Super Saiyan God, something Dende would have zero knowledge on. He has his own abilities like teleporting people, reviving people and restoring planets etc but again the limits of his power are the limits of his creator. Kami might not necessarily be able to recreate the moon because he has no ability that would be able to do it, but he should still get it as an AP feat since Shenron did it which means if Kami had an ability like Shenrons, he'd also be able to do it. The only argument against this is if you say Shenron's limits are above Kami's which would require you to ignore a direct statement, you also said "Dragons being as strong as their creators is just a bad plot device that has been contradicted many times in the show itself", can you show instances of these many times? Kami saying he might be able to wish the Saiyans away with Shenron is irrelevant since your power level has nothing to do with teleporting somebody away, theoretically, if Kami could teleport people anywhere and he was given the chance to touch one of the Saiyans, there's nothing to say he couldn't teleport them somewhere.
 
What dragons do with their reality warping hax doesn't scale to their creators' AP. We've been over this many times. Kami isn't moon level when the best feat in that time period done by a stronger character doesn't come close.
 
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