- 2,677
- 780
Raiden's AP is set at low 7-C in base form and plain 7-C in Ripper Mode, the deal here is that base Raiden actually scales above Armstrong in terms of strength and speed, at least after getting the Murasama.
In this thread i will prove how Raiden beat Armstrong in "base", without the canonical use of Ripper Mode aswell as highlighting what may be a slight overlook in regards to Armstrong's EXCELSUS feat. In order to do so i will constantly refer to the bossfight itself, which i will link below, through time references.
https://youtu.be/mALkd3DG6HA
Let's start by discussing the main topic: Raiden was not in Ripper Mode throught the fight. Honestly I don't even understand how this idea even came to be, but I think the cause is the scene at 29:47, where we see Raiden's eye glowing red. This is pretty evidently not a sign of him going RM for a variety of reasons, the first being that the glow itself lasts for less than a second, unlike what happens when he goes RM, and he also lacks the red aura. The second is that the exact same effect of "red eye flare" can be seen in the Mistral bossfight, where her eyes glow red the exact same way for a second. From this alone it's pretty evident how that red eye is nothing more than a sign of determination and murderous intent shared by different characters in the game, but the fact that puts the definitive nail in the coffin for this theory is that right after this scene, when we get to control Raiden, he's NOT in RM, unlike what happens during Monsoon's bossfight, where him going RM in the cutscene coincides with him still having it active when we get to play.
On top of there not being any proof backing up the idea that Raiden was using Ripper Mode throught the whole fight (the only possible explaination for his base not scaling to Armstrong) we can clearly see that he is in base form in the last cutscene of the bossfight (36:52- 40:00).
But since Raiden's base scales to Armstrong in Ap, then why does he NEED the Murasama in order to hurt him? Well, the truth is that he really doesn't, and this is clearly shown during the scripted QTE moments, such as the one at 30:46- 31:11, where Armstrong disarms Raiden and starts to fight him hand to hand. We can see how Raiden is not only able to hurt Armstrong, but he can even block his attacks and knock him to the ground with a single punch (Armstrong even goes out of his way to say "that one hurt"). So yeah, Raiden is totally equal if not stronger than Armstrong in terms of Ap and doesn't need the Murasama to hurt him, he can get past his hardening without much trouble.
With all of this explanation out of the way it's pretty obvious why Raiden's speed should also be Sub-Rel in base. Armstrong can react to and block Raiden's RM BM slashes, which we know for a fact are Sub-Rel, and Raiden is able to fight toe to toe with Armstrong in base, even dodging and blocking blows from him, out-speeding him in some instances (the same QTE where Raiden knocks Armstrong to the ground shows Jack reacting and dodging Armstrong's punch while the latter can't do the same with Jack's).
You could claim that this is just game mechanics, but 1, what i showed takes place during scripted events, not gameplay, and 2, the definition of "game mechanic" the wiki gives has nothing to do with this, I quote: "Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, stats, world map crossing in seconds outside cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character/entity's actual abilities.". It would be game mechanics if I said that Pre-Murasama Raiden scales to Armstrong just because his punches can chip 0,01% of his health and thus "harm" him, but what I present is basically a cinematic where we see Raiden knocking Armstrong to the ground and him even saying "that one hurt", and as such doesn't fall under the definition of Game Mechanics.
Some confusion may arise from this, after all, he went from Low 7-C to 7-C after getting beat down for a few minutes, how can that be? The reason for that is in the "glowing eye" scene, where Raiden comes to terms with his violent side and embraces it, he's determined to kill Armstrong and this has made him stronger, which means that he should get Accelerated Development, since he can get stronger during a fight through sheer determination. Another ability he really should have listed on his profile is Type 2 Immortality. In MGS4 he can survive and fight with both his heart and lung pierced and in MGR he survives gutting himself right before the Monsoon fight.
Now, about the Armstrong feat. The calc seems ok to me, but a thing i don't think the calc takes into account is the fact that Armstrong punch didn't just destroy the EXCELSUS, it also created a huge crater in the ground, which is where the fight itself takes place (It's kinda hard to see, but it's especially evident during the Blade Wold scene, at 28:03 and 28:09, where we can also see that the wall around the bossfight arena is the surrounding ground, not just the wreckage from the EXCELSIUS. It's also fairly evident at 26:22, right after the explosion). I don't know how this will effect the calc or if it even will at all, I just thought it would be nice to point out and it could lead to an upgrade.
PROPOSED CHANGES
Raiden gets upgraded to 7-C and Sub-Relativistic in base, higher with Ripper Mode, he also gets type 2 immortality aswell as Accelerated Development. I also entertained the idea of Endgame Raiden getting a separate key from his mid-game self, but I'm honestly not that sure about it, we can decide after we agree on whether or not this upgrade is reasonable.
In this thread i will prove how Raiden beat Armstrong in "base", without the canonical use of Ripper Mode aswell as highlighting what may be a slight overlook in regards to Armstrong's EXCELSUS feat. In order to do so i will constantly refer to the bossfight itself, which i will link below, through time references.
https://youtu.be/mALkd3DG6HA
Let's start by discussing the main topic: Raiden was not in Ripper Mode throught the fight. Honestly I don't even understand how this idea even came to be, but I think the cause is the scene at 29:47, where we see Raiden's eye glowing red. This is pretty evidently not a sign of him going RM for a variety of reasons, the first being that the glow itself lasts for less than a second, unlike what happens when he goes RM, and he also lacks the red aura. The second is that the exact same effect of "red eye flare" can be seen in the Mistral bossfight, where her eyes glow red the exact same way for a second. From this alone it's pretty evident how that red eye is nothing more than a sign of determination and murderous intent shared by different characters in the game, but the fact that puts the definitive nail in the coffin for this theory is that right after this scene, when we get to control Raiden, he's NOT in RM, unlike what happens during Monsoon's bossfight, where him going RM in the cutscene coincides with him still having it active when we get to play.
On top of there not being any proof backing up the idea that Raiden was using Ripper Mode throught the whole fight (the only possible explaination for his base not scaling to Armstrong) we can clearly see that he is in base form in the last cutscene of the bossfight (36:52- 40:00).
But since Raiden's base scales to Armstrong in Ap, then why does he NEED the Murasama in order to hurt him? Well, the truth is that he really doesn't, and this is clearly shown during the scripted QTE moments, such as the one at 30:46- 31:11, where Armstrong disarms Raiden and starts to fight him hand to hand. We can see how Raiden is not only able to hurt Armstrong, but he can even block his attacks and knock him to the ground with a single punch (Armstrong even goes out of his way to say "that one hurt"). So yeah, Raiden is totally equal if not stronger than Armstrong in terms of Ap and doesn't need the Murasama to hurt him, he can get past his hardening without much trouble.
With all of this explanation out of the way it's pretty obvious why Raiden's speed should also be Sub-Rel in base. Armstrong can react to and block Raiden's RM BM slashes, which we know for a fact are Sub-Rel, and Raiden is able to fight toe to toe with Armstrong in base, even dodging and blocking blows from him, out-speeding him in some instances (the same QTE where Raiden knocks Armstrong to the ground shows Jack reacting and dodging Armstrong's punch while the latter can't do the same with Jack's).
You could claim that this is just game mechanics, but 1, what i showed takes place during scripted events, not gameplay, and 2, the definition of "game mechanic" the wiki gives has nothing to do with this, I quote: "Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, stats, world map crossing in seconds outside cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character/entity's actual abilities.". It would be game mechanics if I said that Pre-Murasama Raiden scales to Armstrong just because his punches can chip 0,01% of his health and thus "harm" him, but what I present is basically a cinematic where we see Raiden knocking Armstrong to the ground and him even saying "that one hurt", and as such doesn't fall under the definition of Game Mechanics.
Some confusion may arise from this, after all, he went from Low 7-C to 7-C after getting beat down for a few minutes, how can that be? The reason for that is in the "glowing eye" scene, where Raiden comes to terms with his violent side and embraces it, he's determined to kill Armstrong and this has made him stronger, which means that he should get Accelerated Development, since he can get stronger during a fight through sheer determination. Another ability he really should have listed on his profile is Type 2 Immortality. In MGS4 he can survive and fight with both his heart and lung pierced and in MGR he survives gutting himself right before the Monsoon fight.
Now, about the Armstrong feat. The calc seems ok to me, but a thing i don't think the calc takes into account is the fact that Armstrong punch didn't just destroy the EXCELSUS, it also created a huge crater in the ground, which is where the fight itself takes place (It's kinda hard to see, but it's especially evident during the Blade Wold scene, at 28:03 and 28:09, where we can also see that the wall around the bossfight arena is the surrounding ground, not just the wreckage from the EXCELSIUS. It's also fairly evident at 26:22, right after the explosion). I don't know how this will effect the calc or if it even will at all, I just thought it would be nice to point out and it could lead to an upgrade.
PROPOSED CHANGES
Raiden gets upgraded to 7-C and Sub-Relativistic in base, higher with Ripper Mode, he also gets type 2 immortality aswell as Accelerated Development. I also entertained the idea of Endgame Raiden getting a separate key from his mid-game self, but I'm honestly not that sure about it, we can decide after we agree on whether or not this upgrade is reasonable.
