Raiden Upgrade, additional abilities and something about Armstrong's feat

Raiden's AP is set at low 7-C in base form and plain 7-C in Ripper Mode, the deal here is that base Raiden actually scales above Armstrong in terms of strength and speed, at least after getting the Murasama.

In this thread i will prove how Raiden beat Armstrong in "base", without the canonical use of Ripper Mode aswell as highlighting what may be a slight overlook in regards to Armstrong's EXCELSUS feat. In order to do so i will constantly refer to the bossfight itself, which i will link below, through time references.

https://youtu.be/mALkd3DG6HA

Let's start by discussing the main topic: Raiden was not in Ripper Mode throught the fight. Honestly I don't even understand how this idea even came to be, but I think the cause is the scene at 29:47, where we see Raiden's eye glowing red. This is pretty evidently not a sign of him going RM for a variety of reasons, the first being that the glow itself lasts for less than a second, unlike what happens when he goes RM, and he also lacks the red aura. The second is that the exact same effect of "red eye flare" can be seen in the Mistral bossfight, where her eyes glow red the exact same way for a second. From this alone it's pretty evident how that red eye is nothing more than a sign of determination and murderous intent shared by different characters in the game, but the fact that puts the definitive nail in the coffin for this theory is that right after this scene, when we get to control Raiden, he's NOT in RM, unlike what happens during Monsoon's bossfight, where him going RM in the cutscene coincides with him still having it active when we get to play.

On top of there not being any proof backing up the idea that Raiden was using Ripper Mode throught the whole fight (the only possible explaination for his base not scaling to Armstrong) we can clearly see that he is in base form in the last cutscene of the bossfight (36:52- 40:00).

But since Raiden's base scales to Armstrong in Ap, then why does he NEED the Murasama in order to hurt him? Well, the truth is that he really doesn't, and this is clearly shown during the scripted QTE moments, such as the one at 30:46- 31:11, where Armstrong disarms Raiden and starts to fight him hand to hand. We can see how Raiden is not only able to hurt Armstrong, but he can even block his attacks and knock him to the ground with a single punch (Armstrong even goes out of his way to say "that one hurt"). So yeah, Raiden is totally equal if not stronger than Armstrong in terms of Ap and doesn't need the Murasama to hurt him, he can get past his hardening without much trouble.

With all of this explanation out of the way it's pretty obvious why Raiden's speed should also be Sub-Rel in base. Armstrong can react to and block Raiden's RM BM slashes, which we know for a fact are Sub-Rel, and Raiden is able to fight toe to toe with Armstrong in base, even dodging and blocking blows from him, out-speeding him in some instances (the same QTE where Raiden knocks Armstrong to the ground shows Jack reacting and dodging Armstrong's punch while the latter can't do the same with Jack's).

You could claim that this is just game mechanics, but 1, what i showed takes place during scripted events, not gameplay, and 2, the definition of "game mechanic" the wiki gives has nothing to do with this, I quote: "Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, stats, world map crossing in seconds outside cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character/entity's actual abilities.". It would be game mechanics if I said that Pre-Murasama Raiden scales to Armstrong just because his punches can chip 0,01% of his health and thus "harm" him, but what I present is basically a cinematic where we see Raiden knocking Armstrong to the ground and him even saying "that one hurt", and as such doesn't fall under the definition of Game Mechanics.

Some confusion may arise from this, after all, he went from Low 7-C to 7-C after getting beat down for a few minutes, how can that be? The reason for that is in the "glowing eye" scene, where Raiden comes to terms with his violent side and embraces it, he's determined to kill Armstrong and this has made him stronger, which means that he should get Accelerated Development, since he can get stronger during a fight through sheer determination. Another ability he really should have listed on his profile is Type 2 Immortality. In MGS4 he can survive and fight with both his heart and lung pierced and in MGR he survives gutting himself right before the Monsoon fight.

Now, about the Armstrong feat. The calc seems ok to me, but a thing i don't think the calc takes into account is the fact that Armstrong punch didn't just destroy the EXCELSUS, it also created a huge crater in the ground, which is where the fight itself takes place (It's kinda hard to see, but it's especially evident during the Blade Wold scene, at 28:03 and 28:09, where we can also see that the wall around the bossfight arena is the surrounding ground, not just the wreckage from the EXCELSIUS. It's also fairly evident at 26:22, right after the explosion). I don't know how this will effect the calc or if it even will at all, I just thought it would be nice to point out and it could lead to an upgrade.

PROPOSED CHANGES

Raiden gets upgraded to 7-C and Sub-Relativistic in base, higher with Ripper Mode, he also gets type 2 immortality aswell as Accelerated Development. I also entertained the idea of Endgame Raiden getting a separate key from his mid-game self, but I'm honestly not that sure about it, we can decide after we agree on whether or not this upgrade is reasonable.

Not too familiar with this specific Metal Gear game, though I do vaguely recall discussions regarding this. You could ask some of the Knowledgeable Members List for Metal Gear's list however.

who do you suggest i contanct? I think contacting Matthew would be the best course of action since he's te only mod on the list, but I don't know if he's knowledgeable on MGR aswell

Welp, I don't know about the Ripper Mode part, I personally think if Jack was like that he would one shot literally any of his opponents before Armstrong (and don't tell me that Mistral, Sundowner and others are becoming 7-C because they are clearly not on Armstrong's level), and it was clear that Sam can harm Jack with his bare hands because that "show me a good time Jack" thing was a little cutscene, and there's no reason why Jack wouldn't use Ripper Mode against Armstrong (really, it could be just a game mechanic letting the player amp themselves to dodge his attacks, and those red eyes need to mean something, against Monsoon when he activated Ripper Mode he also had the same red eyes glowing, and there must be a reason why Jack wasn't earlier to hurt Armstrong even a little bit and later actually could, Murasama was a gimmick to defeat Senator, that's why he got it in the first place) so until more knowledgeable members come here I'm neutral.

I agree with Type 2 Immortality.

You could ask Matt, and SinsofMan is pretty inactive, but he's also quite knowledgeable on Metal Gear.

SpookyShadow said:

Welp, I don't know about the Ripper Mode part, I personally think if Jack was like that he would one shot literally any of his opponents before Armstrong (and don't tell me that Mistral, Sundowner and others are becoming 7-C because they are clearly not on Armstrong's level), and it was clear that Sam can harm Jack with his bare hands because that "show me a good time Jack" thing was a little cutscene, and there's no reason why Jack wouldn't use Ripper Mode against Armstrong (really, it could be just a game mechanic letting the player amp themselves to dodge his attacks, and those red eyes need to mean something, against Monsoon when he activated Ripper Mode he also had the same red eyes glowing, and there must be a reason why Jack wasn't earlier to hurt Armstrong even a little bit and later actually could, Murasama was a gimmick to defeat Senator, that's why he got it in the first place) so until more knowledgeable members come here I'm neutral.
I agree with Type 2 Immortality.

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My post actually answers most of your questions\doubts.

I'm not saying that Raiden was 7-C from the get-go, he only becomes 7-C after getting the Murasama, he's Low 7-C before that, which is why I talked about adding a key for "post-murasama", "end of game" or something like that and why he doesn't stomp the Winds of Destruction. All scripted events during the bossfight show him not in Ripper Mode, which means that canonically he didn't go Ripper Mode, with the same logic we could say that Base Raiden doesn't scale to people like Sundowner because "there's no reason why Raiden wouldn't use Ripper Mode against him" (especially since he has a very personal beef with Sundowner). If all of the cutscenes show him NOT being in RM, then he canonically didn't go RM, simple as that.

Those red eyes DO mean something, i explained it in the post: They simbolize murderous intent and determination, they also give us a perfect explaination for how Raiden obtained such a power boost: He came to terms with his murderous intents and got a power boost through determination, which is why i presented the possibility of him having Accelerated Development. And again,

the VERY SAME red eye effect is shown by Mistral before her bossfight, as you can see right here; it's not some sort of RM exclusive, it simply simbolizes determination and drive.
All the Murasama did was allow Raiden to cut Armstrong's chest open to finish him off, something he couldn't do with his bare hands, it wasn't needed to FIGHT Armstrong, it was needed to FINISH Armstrong.

if you REALLY want to read A LOT more than you should into that red eye and rationalize it in power-scaling terms, you could say that he basically "absorbed" his RM in his base by accepting his "Jack the Ripper" persona and coming to terms with it

Who knows. But that makes sense. Though having a power-up after receiving Sam's sword seems bullshit, maybe he actually accepted his violent side and just can use it normally and later empower it with his earlier unaccepted rage side or something? Idk. But for sure if that's true he would need another "base" key.

I don't personally know, and I don't think anyone can, we are in speculation territory here, but what is factual is that he went from not damaging a casual Armstrong to overpowering him in the span of a few minutes, we can discuss the reasons all we want, but this is the fact.

Personally I think this is a sort of accelerated development feat: him being pushed to the extreme and being determined to win lead to a power-up

And if we go with the "he absorbed the RM in his base" he would still have RM as a boost, his base accepted it, but there is no reason to believe he wouldn't still be able to let it loose completely

DarkDragonMedeus said:

Not too familiar with this specific Metal Gear game, though I do vaguely recall discussions regarding this. You could ask some of the Knowledgeable Members List for Metal Gear's list however.

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even if you are not knowledgeable on this game, what do you think of the upgrade from a purely technical standpoint?

bump

You should follow Medeus' advice. You can also use the supporters and neutral lists in the Metal Gear verse page to find active and experienced members to ask to comment here.

I already asked both Matt and Sheev for help, but I guess I'll also ask other people ust to be sure

Okay. Thanks.

Not really sold on the 7-C base Raiden thing, i'm gonna wait for other takes.

Type 2 immortality is fine.

Just finished replaying MGR again, why doesn't Raiden have hacking and information analysis? In a cutscene he uses his visor to find a weak spot in a drone and then hacks it with his sword, controlling it

I mean, it's just unadded ability. It's pretty straightforward. Not every profile is perfect here, but I agree definitely with hacking and info analysis.

Also I'm 100% sure that nowhere was it implied that Raiden couldn't have beaten Monsoon without Ripper Mode, if anything we can see that he's pretty scared when Raiden first "transforms"

In Ripper Mode his aggressiveness, rage and bloodlust in fighting style was pretty much a main way to beat Monsoon. There is a reason Ripper Mode exists.

yeah but Ripper Mode also makes him both faster and stronger

And Monsoon could still give him run for his money and make him parry tens to hundreds of strikes

yes, but what I'm saying is that the fact that "it was implied that Raiden couldn't have beaten him without Ripper Mode" is factually incorrect, because no such thing is ever actually implied in any way, also the idea of a character scaling to a character against whom he lost is kinda weird to begin with

his rating should be "Low 7-C, likely 7-C" tbh

But that wasn't an easy battle at all. They were fighting like equals. The main reason why Jack won were EM grenades. Without them God knows what would have happened.

... man, NOWHERE is it even REMOTELY implied that he canonically used EM grenades, you can easily stun him and knock him out of his eletro-magnetic-dodge stuff with a parry

And nothing canonically implies he was parrying entire fight.

if anything, using EM grenades turns the bossfight into a glorified joke that lasts 40 seconds at best where Monsoon can't even attack you, trust me, I literally just finished a run where I did as much and the fight lasted less than a minute

SpookyShadow said:

And nothing canonically implies he was parrying entire fight.

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bruh are you being serious?

Yeah. We would need a cutscene to see what he was canonically doing yeah? There is a reason why EM Grenades are given during this fight, but we don't know if he canonically used them.

What is more likely, that Raiden used an external piece of equipment that depending on the player he might not even have at that point or that he just, you know, parried an attack, especially when a single hit from the Sai would be enough to end the fight (you know, HF shenanigans)?

I always thought cyborgs or dudes with nanosuits are kinda resistant to HF Blades

EM grenades are kinda like a cheat for that fight, they allow you to bypass a good half of the fight. It would be like saying that Snake canonically beat The End by waiting for him to die of old age

And none of this changes the fact that it was never implied by anyone or anything that Raiden couldn't have beaten him without Ripper Mode, whether YOU think it or not is a whole different thing

SpookyShadow said:

I always thought cyborgs or dudes with nanosuits are kinda resistant to HF Blades

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Not really, Raiden got pierced by a random grunt's hf blade right before the battle

The only character who resists HF technology is Armstrong

CrimsonStarFallen said:

Not really sold on the 7-C base Raiden thing, i'm gonna wait for other takes.
Type 2 immortality is fine.

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What are your doubts about the 7-C thing?

It feels like a bit of a headcanon to say that Raiden powered up after getting determined, since there's no real concrete evidence to point to it, but if other users are fine with it then i'll agree too.

I think Crimson is making sense.

I mean, I'm not very knowledgeable on MGR, but I have played it plenty of times. This probably doesn't make as much sense as I think, but I'll just throw it out there.

Is it possible that all of these characters are actually 7-C? Armstrong is still obviously far stronger than the rest of the villains, but from what I've seen it's never been depicted that he's, like, dozens of times stronger or anything like that. If anything, the characters seemingly should be around each others levels, with just a notable but not tier-changing AP increase for characters like Armstrong.

Basically, my point is that while Armstrong and End-Game Raiden are definitely stronger than the rest of the cast, at no point does it seem like it'd actually be all that major of an increase. And if they are all relatively in the same tier, then that would explain the discrepancies with Raiden seemingly getting powered up.