Raiden Upgrade, additional abilities and something about Armstrong's feat

[SheevShezarrine]

I can agree with this

 

[SpookyShadow]

I also have a video of Armstrong parrying Raiden's RM BM attack, don't know how to share it here tho, since it's not on youtube

I can guarantee this will be considered an outlier

 

[Twellas]

... why?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Welp... Try that out. I don't know why, but I just have a feeling like that after many of outlier'd feats I've encountered.

 

[Twellas]

Raiden's RM is already listed as Sub-Rel, the only problem is Armstrong's counter being considered reaction when it's just plain combat speed, even pre-Murasama base Raiden with BM was Sub-Rel

 

[SpookyShadow]

Not gonna lie, I want a Sub-Rel+/Rel Jack

 

[Twellas]

Also Armstrong is a god-tier of the verse and this feat is scaled from something a character who was way weaker than him could do, i really don't see how this could be considered an outlier

 

[SpookyShadow]

Yeah. The only person surpassing him is actually Jack. Welp, he's the strongest guy in verse after all. With Ripper Mode and Murasama he's just, damn

 

[Twellas]

Armstrong counters Raiden's slash-0

Here it is, I hope it works

 

[Twellas]

Even if we want to say that Armstrong didn't actually parry a RMBM slash and a simple BM, base BM slashes are also Sub-Rel

 

[SpookyShadow]

I love the quality of this video

If Ripper Mode was a multiplier, you can get a pretty nice speed feat from that.

 

[Twellas]

Ripper mode does speed BM EXPONENTIALLY in-game, but I don't know how much of a multiplier it is as a whole, i suppose it could be calculated somehow.

In regards to strength a while ago RM was considered a 7x boost because that's how much stronger it makes Raiden in-game, but it was removed. Raiden's RMBM slashes are currently calculated to be 8,055,445.59 m/s' or Mach 23,485, 2,6% of the Speed of Light.

Normal BM makes Raiden 10x faster (this multiplier is accepted because it's from a guide) which means that the slashes are 5,686940 m\s or Mach 16,580, a little above 1% of the Speed of Light I suppose

 

[Twellas]

Sheev agrees with the changes, can we get input from other knowledgeable members?

 

[Twellas]

I really don't know how we didn't have Raiden's base at 7-C already, the guy took a 10 minutes-long beatdown from a bloodlusted 7-C guy and tanked the very explosion that places said character at 7-C, yet these 2 feats are both listed as a Low 7-C on his profile which is blatantly untrue

 

[Twellas]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Twellas]

There should be an upgrade for the whole of MGR in both speed and AP. As of now, Sheev agrees, but i contacted Matthew and asked for his opinion. Honestly I think these upgrades are basically undeniable, especially when even feats on Raiden's current profile already qualify him for 7-C but are listed af low 7-C for some unknown reason.

 

[Twellas]

The current justification for Raiden's durability to be Low 7-C is that he "Survived a brutal beatdown from Armstrong that destroyed what remained of EXCELSUS" but both of these feats are 7-C, not low 7-C

 

[Twellas]

The proposed changes are the following:
Raiden: upgraded to 7-C (superior to Mistral, who is capable of harming him) higher after obtaining the Murasama (defeated Armstrong and is shown to be capable of overpowering him with his bare hands)

Speed: Sub-Relativistic (capable of fighting evenly with Armstrong, outspeeding in some cases, we should also link his RMBM calc)

Armstrong's speed should be plain Sub-Rel, he can block and counter hits from RM BM Raiden, the term "reaction" only includes "a single, quick movement. Examples include ducking backwards to dodge bullets and diving away to dodge extremely fast vehicles", but in Armstrong's case he grabs the sword and hits Raiden back, so it's not classifiable as "a single movement" and is thus considerable combat speed. I honestly don't know how to scale the WOD's speed outside of Sam, who definitely scales to this, maybe a "Massively Hypersonic+, likely Sub-Rel" ? I suppose Monsoon's passive-dodge-thingy scales to Sub-Rel because it can avoid RMBM slashes, but other than that I'm not sure.

The WOD's tier should be Low 7-C (should be superior to the EXCELSUS) likely 7-C (Mistral was capable of harming Raiden, they fought Armstrong to become WODs), Monsoon gets a 7-C rating (comparable to a bloodlusted Ripper Mode Raiden). The deal here is that Boss fights in MGR are never canonically Landslide victories, there's always a degree of difficulty for Raiden, which makes the WODs comparable, although weaker, to Raiden.

We still have to disuss the addition of Accelerated Development for Raiden, even if he got a boost from "merging" with his Ripper persona that would still classify as Accelerated Development

I listed all the changes here, including what I think could be done with the WODs if we don't want to put them at 7-C

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that seems to make sense, but I am the wrong person to ask, so we need more confirmations.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i mean raiden did survive a beating from armstrong when he really wanted him dead and I guess base raiden at the end of game can be likely 7-C due to at least damaging armstrong in some way shape or form but not by a very notable amount until after getting punched through a metal gear lolz

 

[SpookyShadow]

There are characters like Hitoshi Shinsou who scale by slightly harming some characters, so why wouldn't Raiden scale by punching Armstrong in jaw and Armstrong admitting that he hurt him

 

[Twellas]

i mean raiden did survive a beating from armstrong when he really wanted him dead and I guess base raiden at the end of game can be likely 7-C due to at least damaging armstrong in some way shape or form but not by a very notable amount until after getting punched through a metal gear lolz

Armstrong is way above the 20KT explosion (he no-sold it), it's far more likely that Armstrong is simply way higher into 7-C

 

[Twellas]

i mean raiden did survive a beating from armstrong when he really wanted him dead and I guess base raiden at the end of game can be likely 7-C due to at least damaging armstrong in some way shape or form but not by a very notable amount until after getting punched through a metal gear lolz

And his 7-C rating in AP comes from the fact that he's stronger than Mistral, who was shown in scripted events to be able to send him flying with a blunt hit. The reason he couldn't hurt Armstrong before his boost is that Armstrong is simply way higher into 7-C than merely 20KT

 

[Twellas]

Raiden is definitely 7-C from the beginning, no doubt about that, but i would still put the WODs at "Low 7-C, likely 7-C" because they are definitely weaker than Raiden but the difference isn't really known, this goes for everyone but Monsoon who gets a plain 7-C rating for matching a bloodlusted RM Raiden.

Speed is a similar problem because Armstrong's combat speed should be Sub-Rel, and since Raiden managed to outspeed him after getting the Murasama and was still comparable to him before that, he should also get a plain Sub-Rel rating. For the WODs i'd say "MHS+, possibly Sub-Rel" for everyone but Sam and Monsoon, who get a plain Sub-Rel

 

[Twellas]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Have you asked the members listed in the Metal Gear verse page for input?

 

[Twellas]

Matthew, but he hasn't responded yet

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you should ask the others as well.

 

[Twellas]

I already asked pretty much everyone and they all commented here at least once, it's just that they didn't give a yes or no, only Sheev did and it was a yes

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That is a problem.

Perhaps it would help if you provide an easy to understand summary of what we still need to do here?

 

[Twellas]

The proposed changes are the following:
Raiden: upgraded to 7-C (superior to Mistral, who is capable of harming him) higher after obtaining the Murasama (defeated Armstrong and is shown to be capable of overpowering him with his bare hands)

Speed: Sub-Relativistic (capable of fighting evenly with Armstrong, outspeeding in some cases, we should also link his RMBM calc)

Armstrong's speed should be plain Sub-Rel, he can block and counter hits from RM BM Raiden, the term "reaction" only includes "a single, quick movement. Examples include ducking backwards to dodge bullets and diving away to dodge extremely fast vehicles", but in Armstrong's case he grabs the sword and hits Raiden back, so it's not classifiable as "a single movement" and is thus considerable combat speed. I honestly don't know how to scale the WOD's speed outside of Sam, who definitely scales to this, maybe a "Massively Hypersonic+, likely Sub-Rel" ? I suppose Monsoon's passive-dodge-thingy scales to Sub-Rel because it can avoid RMBM slashes, but other than that I'm not sure.

The WOD's tier should be Low 7-C (should be superior to the EXCELSUS) likely 7-C (Mistral was capable of harming Raiden, they fought Armstrong to become WODs), Monsoon gets a 7-C rating (comparable to a bloodlusted Ripper Mode Raiden). The deal here is that Boss fights in MGR are never canonically Landslide victories, there's always a degree of difficulty for Raiden, which makes the WODs comparable, although weaker, to Raiden.

We still have to disuss the addition of Accelerated Development for Raiden, even if he got a boost from "merging" with his Ripper persona that would still classify as Accelerated Development

already did and addressed all questions

 

[Twellas]

It's only a matter of them saying yes or no, I've cleared all doubts as of now

 

[Antvasima]

Are there any accepted calculations to base 7-C tier and sub-relativistic speed on?

 

[SpookyShadow]

It's sheer fact that he damaged a 7-C character in base who got a calced 7-C feat

And Sub-Rel speed as he could match him

 

[Antvasima]

And there is a calculated sub-relativistic feat as well?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Yes. Blade Mode feat, it's on his profile

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then it seems fine to me, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[Twellas]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

If the calculations have been accepted by the calc group, and the members here agree, it can probably be applied.