Raiden Upgrade, additional abilities and something about Armstrong's feat

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What's the discussion going on here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Matt, it has something to do with an upgrade for Raiden's base form in Metal Gear Rising.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody provide a summary for Matthew?

 

[SpookyShadow]

This is an upgrade that is meant to show that Raiden wasn't in Ripper Mode during fighting Armstrong (Red eyes mean determination, like Mistral had red eyes before her battle with Raiden) and his base should be upgraded as he fought with Armstrong in base form and could harm him with his bare fists (because some kind of power-up happened after receiving Sam's blade, but it apparently wasn't Ripper Mode). For now it's seen as Accelerated Development ability, but it's unknown..

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well he wasn't able to handle Armstrong at all at first so it wouldn't scale to his Base Form in the whole game.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Well, logically, if his MGR key is set in that game only, then the key should reflect how strong he is at the latest possible point within that game. It is true that he definitely wasn't as strong as Armstrong in base throughout quite a lot of the game, but his actual key would be based on the latest point, in which case, he is.

 

[Twellas]

also, Armstrong should have Social Influencing

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think what Matt is saying is that Raiden should only be on par with Armstrong in Ripper Mode.

 

[Twellas]

I mean, that's just factually incorrect

 

[Twellas]

Also, can anyone give their opinions on the section about Armstrong's feat? Is it me who's missing something or is the calc ignoring the huge crater?

 

[Twellas]

and i just noticed that base Raiden BEFORE the Murasama already scales to the 20 KT explosion generated by Armstrong because he took it with little to no damage, he didn't just survive, he wasn't even KO'd (as soon as the explosion is over we can see him moving on the ground)

 

[SheevShezarrine]

In that case then yeah maybe MGR cast should be Town level

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Mistral/Sundowner/probably Sam shouldn't really scale as they all still lost to both Armstrong and Raiden

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Twellas]

Yeah, Raiden took that 20 KT explosion without inury and thus should scale to that in base. Sam is the only one of the WOD who doesn't scale to this and neither does Bladewolf.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

They still all put up a good fight, and Sam would've won if Armstrong hadn't pulled a reverse card on him by using his stump as a shiv, so I'd they they scale in an "inferior but still comparable to" sense.

 

[Twellas]

The only chance he had was thanks to the Murasama's dura-negation and his skill, nothing to do with his AP

 

[GrathOfLux]

Yeah, I'm not 100% on Sam scaling to Armstrong. Armstrong was pretty casual throughout the whole fight and still stomped Sam. The only reason Sam dealt any notable damage depicted was because he managed to durability negate Armstrong with the Murasama. I'm not opposed to maybe a "Possibly 7-C", due to the fact that he still seemed to hold his own for a bit, but I don't think there's enough for a definitive rating.

 

[SpookyShadow]

He took Armstrong's blows so his dura should likely be bit better

 

[SheevShezarrine]

He can still fight a serious non-Ripper Raiden unarmed for a short time while unarmed and even catch a sword strike from him, so he still ought to have similar AP. Plus, Sam's blunt/explosive resistance isn't really his downfall, it's his lack of Type 2 Immortality that makes him so squishy compared to cyborgs

 

[Twellas]

I personally think it's best if we put "At least Low 7-C, likely 7-C" as his rating, there is ust no indication that his AP scales to Raiden and Armstrong, it's far more likely that he used his skill to outmanoeuvre them

 

[Twellas]

So, are we all on the same page with upgrading at least Raiden and the cyborg WODs to 7-C?

 

[SpookyShadow]

I'm fine with giving Sam "At least Low 7-C, likely 7-C" and giving Raiden "7-C" end-game/Murasama version. I don't think other WoD's should be upgraded.

 

[Twellas]

Raiden tanked the 7-C explosion before obtaining the Murasama, he was weaker than Armstrong at the time, so if we decide that he DOES scale to that explosion, he does so throughout the whole game. Monsoon should 100% be plain 7-C for fighting RM Raiden

 

[SpookyShadow]

Monsoon is already 7-C

Also I don't think we should scale Raiden's durability to his attack power. We haven't seen feats of him harming... himself with his bare fists. There can be characters that can tank much but are worse in AP, like Robbie Rotte

 

[Twellas]

Monsoon is "Likely 7-C", he should be plain 7-C if we upgrade Raiden.

Raiden is stronger than Mistral, who can harm him in scripted events

without a HF weapon.
Also it's very rare that a character has more durability than AP, it's usually just stamina.

 

[Twellas]

Scaling Raiden to the 20KT explosion would also solve the problem of creating a whole new key for his post-Murasama, we could just put "7-C, higher with the Murasama"

Now, about speed. Since we know that Raiden fought Armstrong in base, are you ok with giving him sub-rel speed in base?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Murasama doesn't grant AP

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Counterpoint to this.

Raiden simply punched Armstrong in a place where the nanomachines hadn't hardened yet. You can tell because Armstrong's skin isn't black where he was punched. It's the same trick Sam used to cut Armstrong's arm off in the DLC. Look at Armstrong's arms when Raiden is punching him in the chest. His skin is clearly black.

 

[Twellas]

Counterpoint to this.
Raiden simply punched Armstrong in a place where the nanomachines hadn't hardened yet. You can tell because Armstrong's skin isn't black where he was punched. It's the same trick Sam used to cut Armstrong's arm off in the DLC. Look at Armstrong's arms when Raiden is punching him in the chest. His skin is clearly black.

You literally can't see whether the skin on Armstrong's cheek is black or not, and why would it not harden? Raiden punched him in the EXACT SAME PLACE before and it hardened. Also the nanomachines harden automatically, all Sam did was outspeed the hardening because the length of the arm made it so that it took a moment for the nanomachines to fully envelope it.

And there is no reason whatsoever for why the Nanomachines would just not harden in THAT specific case, it's not like Raiden damaged his heart or anything. Canonically speaking there is absolutely no reason why his cheeck would not harden.

 

[Twellas]

Murasama doesn't grant AP

I know, it's obvious, by "with the Murasama" i mean "endgame", call it whatever you want

 

[SpookyShadow]

So just another key with "likely higher"

 

[Twellas]

that would be a complete waste of a key, and it would be "higher", no "likely"

 

[Twellas]

He didn't increase in tier, he just got an higher AP in the same tier, there is no need for an extre key. We could also just only take into consideration endgame Raiden

 

[Twellas]

Counterpoint to this.
Raiden simply punched Armstrong in a place where the nanomachines hadn't hardened yet. You can tell because Armstrong's skin isn't black where he was punched. It's the same trick Sam used to cut Armstrong's arm off in the DLC. Look at Armstrong's arms when Raiden is punching him in the chest. His skin is clearly black.

It's completely different from what Sam did. What happened with Sam is that Armstrong went to punch him, causing his arm to harden, but since the arm is quite long, it's not instantaneous, so Sam just cut the piece of the arm which hadn't hardened yet. There's no way Raiden could do that with Armstrong's cheek simply because the surface of Raiden's fist (which is roughly the amount of surface that would harden) is nowhere near as big as the entire arm and we were shown that the Nanomachines can cover such a surface in no time, we even have a previous case of Raiden punching the same cheeck and it hardening, there's no reason to believe this would change in this case

 

[Twellas]

And in case you are wondering why the "blackening" of Armstrong's skin isn't shown in those QTEs, it's because they are not cutscenes, they are made with the game's engine, and the engine simply isn't tuned to show Armstrong's nnomachines hardening from Raiden's strikes, that would make the game unbearably heavy to run and would also be ridiculously hard to implement

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Twellas]

The proposed changes are the following:

Raiden: upgraded to 7-C (superior to Mistral, who is capable of harming him) higher after obtaining the Murasama (defeated Armstrong and is shown to be capable of overpowering him with his bare hands)

Speed: Sub-Relativistic (capable of fighting evenly with Armstrong, outspeeding in some cases, we should also link his RMBM calc)

Armstrong's speed should be plain Sub-Rel, he can block and counter hits from RM BM Raiden, the term "reaction" only includes "a single, quick movement. Examples include ducking backwards to dodge bullets and diving away to dodge extremely fast vehicles", but in Armstrong's case he grabs the sword and hits Raiden back, so it's not classifiable as "a single movement" and is thus considerable combat speed. I honestly don't know how to scale the WOD's speed outside of Sam, who definitely scales to this, maybe a "Massively Hypersonic+, likely Sub-Rel" ? I suppose Monsoon's passive-dodge-thingy scales to Sub-Rel because it can avoid RMBM slashes, but other than that I'm not sure.

The WOD's tier should be Low 7-C (should be superior to the EXCELSUS) likely 7-C (Mistral was capable of harming Raiden, they fought Armstrong to become WODs), Monsoon gets a 7-C rating (comparable to a bloodlusted Ripper Mode Raiden). The deal here is that Boss fights in MGR are never canonically Landslide victories, there's always a degree of difficulty for Raiden, which makes the WODs comparable, although weaker, to Raiden.

We still have to disuss the addition of Accelerated Development for Raiden, even if he got a boost from "merging" with his Ripper persona that would still classify as Accelerated Development

 

[Twellas]

I also have a video of Armstrong parrying Raiden's RM BM attack, don't know how to share it here tho, since it's not on youtube