Raiden Upgrade, additional abilities and something about Armstrong's feat

[SheevShezarrine]

Type 2 Immortality is fine, so is Hacking and Info Analysis, and I could take or leave the Accelerated Development, but I dunno about the 7-C Base Raiden thing, even with Murasama. Iirc Kevin states that HF overhauling enhances a weapon's inherent qualities, so even after overhauling not all weapons are equal. That means Murasama has superior cutting power and durability to Raiden's normal HF blade, but since both have cutting power in the realm of dura negation I don't think that constitutes an AP boost. I would be fine with a speed bosot with Murasama tho, since its speed is what allowed Sam to sever Armstrong's arm in their fight, which Raiden's blade was unable to do

 

[Antvasima]

DarkGrath seems to make sense, but I am the wrong person to ask. What do the rest of you think?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also agree with DarkGrath

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So would his base speed also get that amp permanently or is that just when he actually activates Ripper Mode?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

The winds of destruction being 7-C would be all the more consistent with them fighting Armstrong to enter Desperado anyway.

 

[SpookyShadow]

They all still lost. That's the reason they are in Winds of Destruction in the first place

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

The abilities like type 2 and development are fine but idk on AP cuz the issue is just before raiden only chinked armstrong and he didn't care then suddenly he can actually punch him and phase the dude without much issue seems odd to me

 

[Twellas]

My idea about Raiden getting stronger is not really an headcanon, it's based on the fact that all of the QTEs throught the fight display Raiden overpowering and hurting Armstrong with his bare hands, something he couldn't even remotely do before; I also presented a possible explaination for this, being that he came to terms with his violent side and murderous intent (symbolized by his eye glowing red before the fight) and thus became stronger.

The fact that Raiden got stronger after getting the Murasama is pretty much undeniable tbh, it's just a matter of finding a coherent reason for why it happened

 

[Twellas]

But upgrading all Winds of Destructions to 7-C also makes sense, although we don't really know how well they faired against Armstrong

 

[Twellas]

So would his base speed also get that amp permanently or is that just when he actually activates Ripper Mode?

He fought Armstrong in base and Armstrong can counter attacks that are at least Sub-Rel, so yeah, I think Raiden's base speed should also be Sub-Rel

 

[SpookyShadow]

But upgrading all Winds of Destructions to 7-C also makes sense, although we don't really know how well they faired against Armstrong

Sam is probably the strongest WoD and he lost to Armstrong, so might've been rough.

 

[Twellas]

The deal here is that strategy plays a LARGE role, Sam in terms of AP is probably nowhere near Armstrong, he managed to hold him off with sheer technique and intuition, let's not forget that at the time he was still fully human

 

[SpookyShadow]

He is also much faster than Senator

 

[Twellas]

It's also important to remember that the QTEs ALWAYS show Raiden losing his sword and fighting hand to hand, so it can't just be ignored, the idea here was clearly to show that Raiden can now hurt Armstrong with his bare hands.


As I said, Raiden UNDOUBTEDLY became stronger after getting the Murasama, it's jjust a matter of finding an acceptable reason, and I presented the possibility that he got stronger through determination, which is, of course, pure speculation, but it doesn't change the fact that the power-up happened

 

[Twellas]

Raiden went from not even being able to phase a casual Armstrong with a flurry of punches

 

[Twellas]

to being able to knock him to the ground with a single punch despite him being completely bloodlusted at that point

 

[SpookyShadow]

Kojima's games always are confusing... Yeah I know MGR wasn't made by Kojima, but I heard it was written by him

I still believe that Raiden just accepted his violent side and "fused" with it, and the Ripper Mode that you can active is just him releasing his rage or something.

 

[DarkGrath]

I mean, I do honestly understand the logic behind him "fusing" with his violent side and becoming stronger because of it. But to be honest, it's still mostly headcanon and a bit too presumptuous to use for any definitive rating.

 

[Twellas]

but again, this is nothing more than a possible explaination for what DEFINITELY happened, we can't just ignore the fact that a character is undeniably, canonically shown to have became stronger just because we aren't outright given an explaination from the game itself, at that point a bit of speculation is to be expected, especially when it's not j



ust all made up, it's based on what we are shown: Right before Armstrong's battle we see Raiden's eye glow red, which is something that happens when he goes Ripper Mode and is also shown to happen to other characters when they display strong determination and murderous intent, furthermore after Raiden kills Armstrong we can see his eye has turned red, which symbolizes him having come to terms with his Ripper persona. Dismissing an obectively existent power up because its explaination contains SOME speculation is disengenuous to say the least

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm not denying the powerup, not at all. In fact, I think the determination explanation is perfectly possible and I'd be fine with it if there can be more support from people knowledgeable in MGR. I just don't know for sure what actually caused the powerup.

 

[Twellas]

I honestly don't think there can be another explanation, either this or a slight variation, I think the most important thing is to see if the other knowledgeable members agree that the power-up happened in the first place

 

[Twellas]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkGrath

So what should we do here?

 

[Twellas]

The only possible point that could be made against Raiden's base receiving a boost after getting the Murasama is saying that he was in Ripper Mode throughout the whole fight, problem is, there is NOTHING backing this idea up, it would quite literally be complete headcanon to say that he canonically was in Ripper Mode during the fight

 

[SpookyShadow]

Can I add the Hacking, Information Analysis and Immortality Type 2? I think it was agreed and has enough proof

Also the other missing ability for Jack is Longevity. He's a cyborg after all, so he has longer lifespan than a normal human.

I'm right now working on his profile because I noticed he didn't even have all of his equipment on profile or Notable A&T.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me, but it is best to wait for more input.

 

[Twellas]

yeah, we need other knowledgeable members to give some input, especially on the upgrade

 

[DarkGrath]

Like Twellas said, it's probably best to wait for more input. But I do honestly think Twellas makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think about Spooky's suggestions. Also, are there any other staff or knowledgeable members that you can ask for input?

 

[DarkGrath]

As for Spooky's suggestions, I don't think there's really anything wrong with Hacking, Info Analysis and Type 2 Immortality. I'm a bit dubious on Longevity though; while it seems logical on the surface that a cyborg should live longer than a human, this isn't necessarily the case nor is it implied that it is the case with Raiden (as far as I can remember). If there are some kinds of statements about him living longer due to his cybernetic enhancements, then it should be acceptable.

In mind with the supporters and knowledgeable members, I will contact Matthew, Redgrave and Medeus.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What you accepted is probably fine to apply. Thank you for the help.

 

[DarkGrath]

Should I apply the changes? I'm more than fine with applying the hacking, information analysis and Type 2 immortality. I still think everything else definitely needs more input.

 

[Antvasima]

You can apply the changes that you think are uncontroversial if you wish.

 

[DarkGrath]

Done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[SpookyShadow]

If the upgrade goes through, what would be Armstrong fight Ripper Mode Jack's AP?

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, again, I think it'd be best that someone else more knowledgeable in MGR evaluated this. But my suggestion was that Ripper mode, at best, was a notable but still mild AP increase and as such wouldn't justify a tier change. If we go off of Ripper Mode having a 7-C feat, then normal Raiden should scale by being a bit less far into 7-C.

 

[Twellas]

If the upgrade goes through, what would be Armstrong fight Ripper Mode Jack's AP?

simply higher into 7-C, RM's 7-C feat is literally by just swinging the sword at that speed, it isn't any sort of exertion feat

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

the abilities i'm alright with though longevity maybe due to cyborg body?

The strenght i'm still weirded cuz of the explaination to it. While i understand the clear strenght difference he had the issue is what happened besides maybe getting murasama or somehow fusing his evil persona. I guess we can call that end-game raiden or smth.

Also its funny how i'm playing revengence on a friend's PC and goddamn i suck playing without a controller My pinky hurts like hell but somehow learned to parry in memesoo

 

[Twellas]

We can make hypothesis about why that power-up happened, I gave mine, which is, I think, the most coherent according to the game's themes

I'm currently going for a full S run on all difficulties, already got the Stormbringer achievement