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I agree with Matt, still.
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Sonic (Game): Chaos Emeralds upgrade
- Thread starter Davy0
- Start date
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I am also in agreement with Matt.
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is profile stated him as a Glass Cannon because you guys thought he was a glass cannon, unless you can provide evidence that he is without a doubt a glass cannon (because I've been in most of those arguments if you don't remember), then he isn't. The two flying hedgehogs took attacks from the guy as well, so glass cannon seems to be looking worse and worse.
Can you please tell me why you're in agreement with Matt? The Thoughts into Power statement holds power, the Chaos Emeralds are known for granting various miracles. There should be no issues with this, it's sounding more and more sound as this goes on.
Can you please tell me why you're in agreement with Matt? The Thoughts into Power statement holds power, the Chaos Emeralds are known for granting various miracles. There should be no issues with this, it's sounding more and more sound as this goes on.
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OK guys, I haven't started any problems since I've been here. I shouldn't, that goes without saying.
But I've already proven that they aren't Glass Cannon. The fact that they have tanked attacks from both Solaris and Time Eater are enough to prove that. I can give you the tropes ideal of what a Glass Canno is, Sonic, Shadow and Silver have taken attacks from characters like Solaris, and Sonic with Classic Sonic, (a weaker version of Modern Sonic) have taken attacks from the Time Eater. Plain and simple, multiple attacks, not just one, not just two, multiple. Their attacks broke the invincibility aspect of the Super Forms and they were still capable of fighting.
But I've already proven that they aren't Glass Cannon. The fact that they have tanked attacks from both Solaris and Time Eater are enough to prove that. I can give you the tropes ideal of what a Glass Canno is, Sonic, Shadow and Silver have taken attacks from characters like Solaris, and Sonic with Classic Sonic, (a weaker version of Modern Sonic) have taken attacks from the Time Eater. Plain and simple, multiple attacks, not just one, not just two, multiple. Their attacks broke the invincibility aspect of the Super Forms and they were still capable of fighting.
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I'm sorry, but I can't support this upgrade. The reason being a similar thread for Kirby got shut down for basically the same reasons Matthew was stating. The similarities include a character with a much higher power losing to the hero (Magolor/Landia and Solaris/Time Eater) being an outlier, and then a statement that for the non outlier (WoG and a wish granting reality warper stating infinite power for Kirby and "thoughts into power" statemet from Blaze or whoever to Chaos Emerald users). If a smaller jump (MSS to Uni as opposed to LP to Uni+) was considered unjustified for the same reasons, then I fail to see how this would be any different.
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If you actually read this thread., This isn't about the characters themselves gaining the power, but the objects they use for their super forms gaining that power. That means that the characters power is synonomous with how much energy they can gain from the Chaos Emeralds, and not the characters themselves, as the Chaos Emeralds turn literal thoughts into strength to boost characters potentials to the power needed for victory. So there's a difference between what you're relaying and what is being relayed here. So please, do not make this thread about Kirby, make that somewhere else.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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With that said Hop agree the Chaos Emeralds themselves should be considered to be something much higher when it comes to gaining more power from them. I went back to see if the claims he said were true, and to be honest they are. It has been demonstrated multiple characters can match Super Sonic, so I am starting to see no reason in not supporting this.
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Before I continue debating, let me get things straight, just so we're on the right page. So basically, what you're saying is that because of the nature of the Chaos Emeralds, the users when drawing energy can defeat anyone short of universe+ with high diff because it gives them the power needed for victory, despite struggling with planet characters.
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^
I think that's what it sounds like. But he did give specifics.
And when other characters infused with the emeralds fight each other, they are invulnerable for the most part. So durability on their end isn't such a massive take away from the point.
I think that's what it sounds like. But he did give specifics.
And when other characters infused with the emeralds fight each other, they are invulnerable for the most part. So durability on their end isn't such a massive take away from the point.
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I still maintain my original statement, which has been re-explained very well by The Real Cal Howard.The real cal howard said:
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There's also the issue with Hyper Sonic, which is a Superior Form than to Super due to being powered by the Super Emeralds but it only as a High 4-C feat. For Super Form to be jumped up to Tier 2 would mean Hyper Sonic wouldn't be superior form, which is a clear contradiction to the purpose of Hyper Form.
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Also, if the Chaos Emeralds can give enough power to beat the opponent, why can't they just draw more power? Sonic and co. have been using them for YEARS, assuming they can't the full power of the Chaos Emeralds at this point is ridiculous.
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that would be weird but it might be the Super emeralds low end like how the normal chaos emeralds low end is planet but could be higher depending on the opponent as the super form did fight tier 2s before (solaris and potentially the egg wizard via the power of the stars albeit both fights had help) so it might be a case of the emeralds powers having a constant power but have a huge tier boost on some fights. True they have been using the power for years but they never implied that they used it maximum potential on the other fightsMarvelFanatic119 said:
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Eggman had them for years, not to mention he's a super genius and couldn't come close to Universe level power, and yet he some how captured and created a Tier 2 (Time Eater) being without them?
Why couldn't they though? They have used and obtained them for years on time, are you telling me that they never ONCE thought of using them at their full potential if it meant saving the world?
Why couldn't they though? They have used and obtained them for years on time, are you telling me that they never ONCE thought of using them at their full potential if it meant saving the world?
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Even if they (Sonic, Silver, and Shadow) aren't Glass Cannons, this would still count as an Outlier.
Post-Crisis Superman beat Dominus, a Multiversal Cosmic Being, have we put him at 2-B/2-A because of that? No, we haven't. He has multiple feats that are FAR below this, and his power varies as well like the Chaos Emeralds due to his Kryptonian Physiology.
If Post-Crisis Supes hasn't gotten an upgrade because of that, than neither should the Hedgehogs.
Post-Crisis Superman beat Dominus, a Multiversal Cosmic Being, have we put him at 2-B/2-A because of that? No, we haven't. He has multiple feats that are FAR below this, and his power varies as well like the Chaos Emeralds due to his Kryptonian Physiology.
If Post-Crisis Supes hasn't gotten an upgrade because of that, than neither should the Hedgehogs.
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^Agreed
On the glass cannon note, I am with Davy0 that Time Eater shouldn't be a glass cannon. However, that still doesn't stop him from being an outlier. A series can have more than one. MF's Superman example is a great one, esp. seeing how this could be interpereted similarly to the "As Strong As He Needs To Be" comment.
On the glass cannon note, I am with Davy0 that Time Eater shouldn't be a glass cannon. However, that still doesn't stop him from being an outlier. A series can have more than one. MF's Superman example is a great one, esp. seeing how this could be interpereted similarly to the "As Strong As He Needs To Be" comment.
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Yeah, Time Eater's no Glass Cannon like Solaris, but he can't be scaled to Sonic and any other Hedgehogs either.
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OK. An outlier is something thay happens once, and does not happen again. They fight against beings who are of a Universal Scale twice. Were capable of fighting after being hit by their attacks, and were capable of harming them in both these scenarios. Can someone please find a decent definition of outlier. You can't use an outlier for this one, it happens enough times that it can't be overlooked as that. So please, stop saying that.
How is Solaris a glass cannon, they were harming him, they needed to be infused with the primordial concepts of the "past, present and future" to be capable of defeating Solaris, otherwise he would not have been harmed, and he still did not die. He/It just reset itself back each time. That's why I just stated so many times that you can't state that, that Universe Level+ is a thing. Because they could still harm yet not kill it.
How is Solaris a glass cannon, they were harming him, they needed to be infused with the primordial concepts of the "past, present and future" to be capable of defeating Solaris, otherwise he would not have been harmed, and he still did not die. He/It just reset itself back each time. That's why I just stated so many times that you can't state that, that Universe Level+ is a thing. Because they could still harm yet not kill it.
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@Davy
Superman has 26 universal feats, and we don't count them due to how outlier-ish they are when compared to everything else he's done.
That's all I need to say regarding "you can't call this an outlier because it happened twice".
Superman has 26 universal feats, and we don't count them due to how outlier-ish they are when compared to everything else he's done.
That's all I need to say regarding "you can't call this an outlier because it happened twice".
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You neglect to mention that Superman gets retconned so many times that doesn't matter. These characters follow a straightforward timeline and can be judged, while Superman has a billion other incarnations of himself and his power scales depending on the writer who's doing him at the time, so Superman's power is of conjecture rather than stated facts usually.
Don't use Superman's feats to throw away Sonic's feats, if that were the case, multitudes of characters should have outliers due to their abilities happening once. We have no reason to deny the Sonicverse feats, we have all sorts of reasons to deny Superman feats. Their are stated facts in a single timeline that have to do with the powers of the Chaos Emeralds themselves, and not the characters that use them. So please, just stop.
Don't use Superman's feats to throw away Sonic's feats, if that were the case, multitudes of characters should have outliers due to their abilities happening once. We have no reason to deny the Sonicverse feats, we have all sorts of reasons to deny Superman feats. Their are stated facts in a single timeline that have to do with the powers of the Chaos Emeralds themselves, and not the characters that use them. So please, just stop.
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A series can have multiple outliers. Agree with Ever, and Marvel and Howard's points also.
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"Superman got retconned so many times it doesn't matter.
Uh.
He got Retconned three times over 75 years.
Uh.
He got Retconned three times over 75 years.
- First with the separation of Golden Age and Silver Age, Earth 1 and Earth 2.
- Then with Crisis on Infinite Earths, with Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis
- Then with Flashpoint, with Pre-Flashpoint and New 52
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Well, Superman does not have nearly that many universal feats, I think, although I haven't counted them.
Regardless, Davy0 does have a point in that western Marvel and DC superhero comicbooks are a special case, due to the sheer number of writers and timespan involved.
Anyway, so do we all agree that the Time Eater profile should be adjusted in terms of durability? Also, what about Solaris? Should it also be adjusted from glass cannon status?
Regardless, Davy0 does have a point in that western Marvel and DC superhero comicbooks are a special case, due to the sheer number of writers and timespan involved.
Anyway, so do we all agree that the Time Eater profile should be adjusted in terms of durability? Also, what about Solaris? Should it also be adjusted from glass cannon status?
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@Ant
There's a blog about it, but I forgot the name, and I was kinda just using that as an example because it was the first that came to mind.
Dragon Ball has two outliers as well (For the anime, there's Buu's over time galaxy busting and Broly's over time galaxy busting) and we don't accept them (Well, I can't recall the conclusion to the thread, but I know that was the basis
There's a blog about it, but I forgot the name, and I was kinda just using that as an example because it was the first that came to mind.
Dragon Ball has two outliers as well (For the anime, there's Buu's over time galaxy busting and Broly's over time galaxy busting) and we don't accept them (Well, I can't recall the conclusion to the thread, but I know that was the basis
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Well, okay then. I am not well informed about this. I just wonder if, as I think SoyHop and Davy0 claim, it has been explicitly stated that the energy sources in question grant the wielder variable power depending on the opponent?
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Every series has outliers.
Saint Seiya has a 3-B statement for 7th Sense Seiya, and Saga's fist punching through a Gold Cloth when his Galaxian Explosion didn't shatter a Gold Cloth.
Saint Seiya has a 3-B statement for 7th Sense Seiya, and Saga's fist punching through a Gold Cloth when his Galaxian Explosion didn't shatter a Gold Cloth.
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OK hold on now. So the Chaos Emeralds which are objects of power, not the characters "outliers" when it's stated that Chaos Emeralds are known for their limitless power (a hyperbole, but still meaning they are extremely powerful large sources of energy) aren't accepted because of other series not being accepted, even though this is not about the characters in question, but the objects that give them the powers to do their feats. That means this isn't about Kirby's power, this isn't about Superman's power, this is about an object thatis known for having immeasurable amounts of power.
This also means that NONE of the quotes or pieces of evidence I showcase hold any weight, so you're going to throw those aside as if they mean nothing.
Question, why can't the Chaos Emeralds have power if they give the characters power, if it's not solely based on the characters individual feats, but how much power they gain from using the Chaos Emeralds. Because we didn't know the limitations of the Chaos Emeralds. You got the idea for the Chaos Emeralds from a calculation that wasn't even correct because said object may not tap into the untold powers of the Chaos Emeralds and their were two more beings that had been powerful enough to rival the powers of the Chaos Emeralds.
This isn't about the Super Forms, it's about the power soruce that power the super forms, you guys are talking about characters, their was no discussed limit in any medium of how powerful the Chaos Emeralds actually were.
This also means that NONE of the quotes or pieces of evidence I showcase hold any weight, so you're going to throw those aside as if they mean nothing.
Question, why can't the Chaos Emeralds have power if they give the characters power, if it's not solely based on the characters individual feats, but how much power they gain from using the Chaos Emeralds. Because we didn't know the limitations of the Chaos Emeralds. You got the idea for the Chaos Emeralds from a calculation that wasn't even correct because said object may not tap into the untold powers of the Chaos Emeralds and their were two more beings that had been powerful enough to rival the powers of the Chaos Emeralds.
This isn't about the Super Forms, it's about the power soruce that power the super forms, you guys are talking about characters, their was no discussed limit in any medium of how powerful the Chaos Emeralds actually were.
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The problem is how come the Emeralds are so inconsistent then?
One minute they give you enough power to fight beings like Time Eater and Solaris, but struggle against other characters like Dark Gaia and Metal Sonic (who became so strong that even Eggman doubted the Emeralds would be enough).
If the "thoughts into power" is legit, it wouldn't make sense then considering Sonic/Shadow/Silver likely think like this when using the Emeralds:
"Give me the strength to beat this guy!"
Not
"Give me enough strength so I can just be A BIT stronger than that guy!"
If the Emeralds have limitless power, then why do you get enough power to beat a Universe level guy one time but struggle against a Planet Level guy another time? Do the Emeralds decide how much power you get?
Again, HOW does it not fully tap into Emerald's power? How come no one bothered to ask why they give them so much power in one instance and not another? They respond to the thoughts of the user, so how come they aren't that strong in several instances throughout the games?
One minute they give you enough power to fight beings like Time Eater and Solaris, but struggle against other characters like Dark Gaia and Metal Sonic (who became so strong that even Eggman doubted the Emeralds would be enough).
If the "thoughts into power" is legit, it wouldn't make sense then considering Sonic/Shadow/Silver likely think like this when using the Emeralds:
"Give me the strength to beat this guy!"
Not
"Give me enough strength so I can just be A BIT stronger than that guy!"
If the Emeralds have limitless power, then why do you get enough power to beat a Universe level guy one time but struggle against a Planet Level guy another time? Do the Emeralds decide how much power you get?
Again, HOW does it not fully tap into Emerald's power? How come no one bothered to ask why they give them so much power in one instance and not another? They respond to the thoughts of the user, so how come they aren't that strong in several instances throughout the games?
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I just stated that the CHAOS EMERALDS give power proportionate to the enemy that they face. You're using Dark Gaia who I stated, twice now, to be a being who is a concept of darkness, who should exist so long as their is a universe (as that's what a concept of darkness is, it cannot be killed by normal means). But no you won't listen to that.
Metal Sonic had absorbed the DNA of all the hedgehogs who existed at that time who had relevance. Including Shadow, this also means that he gained their potential in doing so, as he could use their abilities just as well as they could. He was a Planetary Threat, so I don't know what problems you have with this.
That's not how giving powers works, just because you gain the power to beat someone, doesn't mean you can automatically effortlessly win. What you're thinking is Victini (from Pokemons) special power which is to give a person the ability to succeed and gain victory no matter what they do. The Chaos Emeralds are fickle, as shown when they pretty much do whatever they wish to do, and choose to go wherever they need to go. Did I not already mention that the Chaos Emeralds are sentient, or does that not go well with your statement against their powers.
Again, the Chaos Emeralds are sentient beings, why does Cheshire Cat not give Alice the answers she needs, when it would make the story of Through the Looking Glass so much shorter if he did. But that's only an example. Just because you can do something for a person, doesn't mean you want to. But again, this is going to be pushed aside because you guys will have something else to say about the same things I've been talking about multiple times since the beginning of this thread, so it becomes a never-ending loop where you say "then your entire theory is invalid" even though there's enough information to state it isn't.
I'm not even going to respond to this with a paragraph considering characters already stated multiple times that Chaos Emeralds turn "thoughts into power and create MIRACLES".
Metal Sonic had absorbed the DNA of all the hedgehogs who existed at that time who had relevance. Including Shadow, this also means that he gained their potential in doing so, as he could use their abilities just as well as they could. He was a Planetary Threat, so I don't know what problems you have with this.
That's not how giving powers works, just because you gain the power to beat someone, doesn't mean you can automatically effortlessly win. What you're thinking is Victini (from Pokemons) special power which is to give a person the ability to succeed and gain victory no matter what they do. The Chaos Emeralds are fickle, as shown when they pretty much do whatever they wish to do, and choose to go wherever they need to go. Did I not already mention that the Chaos Emeralds are sentient, or does that not go well with your statement against their powers.
Again, the Chaos Emeralds are sentient beings, why does Cheshire Cat not give Alice the answers she needs, when it would make the story of Through the Looking Glass so much shorter if he did. But that's only an example. Just because you can do something for a person, doesn't mean you want to. But again, this is going to be pushed aside because you guys will have something else to say about the same things I've been talking about multiple times since the beginning of this thread, so it becomes a never-ending loop where you say "then your entire theory is invalid" even though there's enough information to state it isn't.
I'm not even going to respond to this with a paragraph considering characters already stated multiple times that Chaos Emeralds turn "thoughts into power and create MIRACLES".
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It depends on the users control if I'm not mistaken like the Juubi from Naruto if that is the case then it doesn't seem like outliers to me..
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It's not the users control, literally, the Chaos Emeralds give the user their power. The only thing that forcefully took their power in the canon series is Perfect Chaos if I'm not mistaken.
Also, more evidence that the Chaos Emeralds are more powerful than they seem? A single Chaos Emerald frightened the Time Eater away when it was going to attack the Sonic's and Tail's.
Also, more evidence that the Chaos Emeralds are more powerful than they seem? A single Chaos Emerald frightened the Time Eater away when it was going to attack the Sonic's and Tail's.
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i didn't really think about how the time eater was blown away by the emerald I just assume it was evil so it was reflected but then again it can't reflect if it doesn't have the same AP iirc
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