Part III: Naruto LS statements (STAFF ONLY)

I have Kep and Matthew's permission to create a staff only thread. This thread's purpose is discuss the ligitimacy of some lightspeed statements. I tried 2 threads but.. yeah you know. As I've talked in the second thread, Damage and Jvando will discuss the legitimate of Madara reacting to Mabui's teleport. Others stuff can be dealed after the discussion.

• Thread 1: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3171925
• Thread 2: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3176411

Also, please don't comment here. Let both discuss. If you have something to say, message me, Jvando or Damage.

Hey staff, I am asking for you guys comment when the discussion is finished, please.

OBS: Kaguya is Low 2-C

Madara vs LS Teleportation

So, here's the scene:

• Mabui uses a technique on Ay (Fourth raikage) and Lady Tsunade that can transport her target at Light Speed
• They travel towards the battlefield at light speed while their bodies are covered by the aura of the technique (Second scan, top part of the second to last Panel) and are aimed towards Madara (on the bottom right of the second scan, second to last panel) and Muu (Bottom left of the same panel)
• On the third and last Scan, you see that Madara was able to intercept Tsunade who was kicking her while still being covered in the aura of the technique. My assertion is that she attacked Madara while still traveling at LS (Due to Mabui's transportation technique) and Madara was able to react to it putting his reactions at Relativistic.

Most of the disagreement with this Madara feat seams to stem partly from mere conjecture that leads down a rabbit hole of more conjecture solely in order to justify Ay catching KaMuuto off guard in order to somehow prove that Ay landed before he attacked...that doesn't work.



This is what it would have looked like had they arrived directly from the sky to the ground (the top right panel)

We know exactly what it would have looked like had they arrived from the sky directly to the ground (The first scan. Right next to this paragraph)



Madara (bottom right) and Muu (who is controlled by Kabuto on the bottom left) the blue approaching streaks you see on the very top of the second to last panel are Ay and Tsunade approaching at LS

There is nothing like that happening in the picture with Madara and Muu though (second scan. Right next to this paragraph). You can clearly see Tsunade and Ay's lights (Circled in Red) rushing towards KaMuuto and Madara and not the ground. You need substantial evidence to prove that they did rush directly towards the ground in front of KaMuuto and Madara which hasn't even been shown.



Tsunade and Ay attacking from slightly above

Also, based on the angle that they attacked (From slightly above to below. Third scan, right next to this paragraph), in order for Tsuande and Ay to have landed first before attacking, the sequence of events would have to be like this:

• They land in front of Madara and Muu
• they then jump into the air and come down towards them at an angle as they lash out a punch and kick
• Ay conveniently forgets his Lightning Armor just because.
• during the process of them landing and then jumping into the air, Madara decides to just cross his arms while Muu remains dumbfounded and is caught off guard by a base Ay who, let's not forget, conveniently forgot to activate his instantaneous Lightning Armor even though he had the time to land and then jump forward for another attack...

That is the only way the scene in the panel where Ay and Tsunade are shown to attack Madara and Muu could happen. A lot more assumptions have to be make, assumptions that need to somehow be proven, assumptions that not only goes against what supplementary canon showed us, but also require you to stretch your imagination in order for this to be feasible.

Too many assumptions.

Mine, however, goes like this.

• They attacked Madara and Muu head on during the LS transports

Easy, simply, less assumptions, supported by Secondary/Tertiary canon (The anime: no idea which one it even is), coincides with Relativistic Databook statements.

Better yet, this feat ties in perfectly with the Databook statements which would put the characters at around Rel+

My rendition of events is supported by evidence to why they didn't land before attacking (Ay would have used his Lightning Cloak like he does every. Single. Time.), the anime, and Databook statements that put such high tiers around that speed.

Finally, my rendition of events requires much much less assumptions in order to justify than the opposition. Occam's Razor I think it's called.

Ay
The Databook gives us a statement for Relativistic Ay through Lariat as he moves "near the speed of light." This likewise ties in with him reacting to and launching an attack while in LS transport courtesy of Mabui. It is not at all difficult to react to something merely 2x faster than you are used to.

Sasuke
We know that with his MS and his chidori, he was able to effectively tag Ay the Raikage. Even if you find the increase amount of perception given by the Mangekyō Sharingan to be not enough, you also have the fact that the chidori gives an unquantifiable increase in speed to the user. So much so that they develop tunnel vision if they don't have the sharingan to supplement them.

Additionally, Sasuke has dodged Lariat, a technique requiring the user to move close to the SoL.

• He dodged Bee's lariat

Mifune
For him it's only his attack speed. Databook states that he attacks at light speed, supported by the above scaling since he attack and was countered by Sasuke who we have established to be Relativistic according to the Databook entries. Each statement seems to fit in perfectly with the next with little inconsistency between them and not much dissonance with the character scaling.

Finishing Thoughts
In such a situation where the statements of feats perfectly coincide with each other and work within the context of the story, I think it should be acceptable for the Databook statements to be used.

We have made sure that the statements from the Databook that we are considering (As noted in the OP of thread 1) are not hyperbolic and actually make sense when considering character scaling. There is a reason no one is considering LS Haku.

As a little tidbit, this thread should under no way violate the discussion rules of Naruto threads.

• We aren't claiming that characters are LS or FTL, only that they are Relativistic.
• The Databook descriptions presented are non-hyperbolic statements and fit within the story while also scaling well to other individual feats that are also stated to be Relativistic.

Madara vs LS Teleportation

> Ay conveniently forgets his Lightning Armor just because.

• In your version of events Ay also doesn't use his Lightning Release Armor. You assert that Ay, while being moved at the speed of light has enough time to see his target and punch them but not enough time to activate his ability that you claim he uses every single time?

> You can clearly see Tsunade and Ay's lights rushing towards KaMuuto and Madara and not the ground.

• The beams don't look like they're aimed at Madara and Kabuto.
• Ay and Tsunade are being transported by Mabui; there is no implication that they are able to control where they are going so how could they 'rush towards KaMuuto and Madara' while still being moved at lightspeed? They have no way of manoeuvring themselves in the air.
• It not unreasonable that they simply stopped moving at lightspeed offscreen (with thier arrival signified by a flash of light on the last panel) and then they attacked.
• The anime version of the scene also shows the flash of light forming in front of them and closer to the ground. They aren't attacking them from directly above.

> during the process of them landing and then jumping into the air, Madara decides to just cross his arms while Muu remains dumbfounded and is caught off guard by a base Ay who, let's not forget, conveniently forgot to activate his instantaneous Lightning Armor even though he had the time to land and then jump forward for another attack...

• Simple solution is that Ay's attack was faster than Tsunade's which is why Madara could block against her and Kabuto couldn't against Ay.
• Or that Madara simply has better reactions than Kabuto does. Remember Kabuto's not just being caught off-guard by Ay's attack, he's also surprised from two new enemies appearing right in front of them.

• Later against Ay in his speed-enhanced Lightning Mode, Ay completely vanishes from Kabuto's and Madara's sight.
  • If Madara and Kabuto could see Tsunade and Ay approaching them at lightspeed but fail to see Ay and Onoki here, then Ay and Onoki would have been travelling FTL which is especially ridiculous for Onoki to survive that since Tsunade herself was badly injured simply travelling at lightspeed.

> They attacked Madara and Muu head on during the LS transports

• You're glossing over the assumptions required in order for this to work. Such as:
  • Tsunade and Ay being able to percieve their targets despite travelling at lightspeed (which neither of them have done before).
  • Both of them having enough time to be able to launch physical attacks while being moved at lightspeed. Effectively Ay would need far better reactions than he has shown with his Lightning Chakra Armor and Tsunade who is confirmed to be slower than him would need the same.
  • Madara and Muu coincidentally passed directly underneath where Tsunade and Ay were being transported to.

> It is not at all difficult to react to something merely 2x faster than you are used to.

• Ay's Lightning Chakra Armour increases his reaction speeds considerably. Assuming that base Ay is capable of the same kind of reactions is a big assumption, and even moreso to assume he'd be capable of reacting while being moved at lightspeed.

• Also, the implications that Madara is capable of reacting to incoming attacks at lightspeed are too much when you consider all of the attacks he showed no signs of reacting to:
  • The Raikage / Tsuchikage combo attacked him and blew a hole through his Susano'o before he could block.
  • Might Guy's Hirudora blasting him away while he was in the middle of launching an attack.
  • Rock Lee bisecting him and cutting off his connection to the 10-Tails.
  • An even stronger version of Madara failing to react to Obito shanking him in the chest.
  • An even stronger version of Madara struggling to keep up with Might Guy's speed here and here.

• It seems a lot more likely that Madara 'blocking a lightspeed attack' is an inconsistency, even if it did happen.

Ay

• Have you actually gone through a list of the times that Ay and Killer B have used their Lariat in order to check for consistency?
  • Because Ay uses his Lightning Release: Lariat against a base Killer B and Killer B appears to keep up with him perfectly unless we're suggesting the base Killer B without any chakra increases can easily keep up with a near-lightspeed attack.

Sasuke

• I've reread chapter 460 to chapter 464, which is where Sasuke battles the Raikage. Not once in that fight did Sasuke dodge the Raikage's Lariat. If you could provide scans of when he did that, it'd be useful.

Mifune

• The databook seems to be specifically referring to this ranged attack of Mifune's that he has been seen using against the 10-Tails. Not his general combat speed, I'm just noting that because of my next point.
• During his fight against Sasuke, Mifune never used this ranged slash.
  • Given that he never used a lightspeed attack against Sasuke, it means that there are no supporting feats, statements or calcs from the original manga itself that support Mifune's attack speed being this high.
• Mifune's ranged slash was launched at roughly the same time as several other jutsu against the 10-Tails, and as seen on the colour version of the page it landed on the 10-Tails at about the same time.
  • This has been dismissed as just a trope that a lot of manga do (attacks of assumedly different speeds being launched at the same time and hitting their target at the same time); but given that the speed from the databook would make Mifune's attack theoretically hundreds of times faster than these other attacks I think this argument is just dismissing it as a trope in order to avoid a contradicting inconsistency.
  • If the statement in the databook for Mifune's slash is hyperbolic, then the statements putting Ay and Killer B at near-lightspeed for their Lariat is harder to take seriously.

Databooks in General

• I don't see how they can be presented as non-hyperbolic just because it is in the main of the desription. Especially considering the lack of speed feats in Naruto that put them at near-lightspeed.

• • Sasuke's databook entry isn't in the hype text on the sides but it still says that 'no one who confronts Sasuke has a chance of living' when he combines his speed with his Sharinga.
  • It's also interesting that nobody in the actual series itself refers to the Raikage or his attacks as travelling at near-lightspeed. This info solely comes from databooks.

1

In your version of events Ay also doesn't use his Lightning Release Armor. You assert that Ay, while being moved at the speed of light has enough time to see his target and punch them but not enough time to activate his ability that you claim he uses every single time?

Its is exactly what he did, he did not use his armour for whatever reason but was capable of punching Mu within the light speed timeframe, this matches up with his near light speed combat speed given in the databooks.

2
The beams don't look like they're aimed at Madara and Kabuto.

• Ay and Tsunade are being transported by Mabui; there is no implication that they are able to control where they are going so how could they 'rush towards KaMuuto and Madara' while still being moved at lightspeed? They have no way of manoeuvring themselves in the air.
• It not unreasonable that they simply stopped moving at lightspeed offscreen (with thier arrival signified by a flash of light on the last panel) and then they attacked.
• The anime version of the scene also shows the flash of light forming in front of them and closer to the ground. They aren't attacking them from directly above.

They do look like that you see them first coming down in a straight line then you see them coming down at an angle in the same panel and Madara and Mu charging at Naruto and co. It is when then are attacking at a downwards angle. The anime literally shows their arrival and then the attacks quite literally at a downwards angle or Mu and Madara would not have flown back downwards.

3
Simple solution is that Ay's attack was faster than Tsunade's which is why Madara could block against her and Kabuto couldn't against Ay.

• Or that Madara simply has better reactions than Kabuto does. Remember Kabuto's not just being caught off-guard by Ay's attack, he's also surprised from two new enemies appearing right in front of them.
• Later against Ay in his speed-enhanced Lightning Mode, Ay completely vanishes from Kabuto's and Madara's sight.
• If Madara and Kabuto could see Tsunade and Ay approaching them at lightspeed but fail to see Ay and Onoki here, then Ay and Onoki would have been travelling FTL which is especially ridiculous for Onoki to survive that since Tsunade herself was badly injured simply travelling at lightspeed.

This is something you really don't seem to get, the reaction speed for Madara from blockin their light speed attack would simply be about mid end relativistic. Ay and Onoki would simply need to travel at faster than that to blitz them.

4
You're glossing over the assumptions required in order for this to work. Such as:

• Tsunade and Ay being able to percieve their targets despite travelling at lightspeed (which neither of them have done before).
• Both of them having enough time to be able to launch physical attacks while being moved at lightspeed. Effectively Ay would need far better reactions than he has shown with his Lightning Chakra Armor and Tsunade who is confirmed to be slower than him would need the same.
• Madara and Muu coincidentally passed directly underneath where Tsunade and Ay were being transported to.

They literally could have gone in ready to attack, Mabui could have instantly sent them to Madara and Mu they know they are going in mid combat they don't need to reactions to prepare an attack.

5
Also, the implications that Madara is capable of reacting to incoming attacks at lightspeed are too much when you consider all of the attacks he showed no signs of reacting to:

• The Raikage / Tsuchikage combo attacked him and blew a hole through his Susano'o before he could block.
• Might Guy's Hirudora blasting him away while he was in the middle of launching an attack.
• Rock Lee bisecting him and cutting off his connection to the 10-Tails.
• An even stronger version of Madara failing to react to Obito shanking him in the chest.
• An even stronger version of Madara struggling to keep up with Might Guy's speed here and here.

It seems a lot more likely that Madara 'blocking a lightspeed attack' is an inconsistency, even if it did happen.

Let's break this down. Raikage combo makes sense his reactions would only be relativistic so of course with Ay being stated at near slight speed and Onoki helping him of course he would be above Madara's reaction speed.

You can literally see in the image that Naruto is holding Madara, or more specifically his Susanoo in place. Not to mention that Might guy is in 6 gates meaning that both his speed and power are massively beyond his base MHS+ speed.

Same thing with Lee except it is a tailed beast cloak that is boosting his power and on top of that he has extra speed form being launched by Guy.

Ignoring that he was surprised by Obito's betrayal and this Obito has also kept up with extremely fast opponents.

Guy is even faster than with his 6 gates and is literally bending space with his sheer speed which literally gives more weight to the light speed statements. Not to mention that Madara literally reacted to it.

6
Have you actually gone through a list of the times that Ay and Killer B have used their Lariat in order to check for consistency?

• Because Ay uses his Lightning Release: Lariat against a base Killer B and Killer B appears to keep up with him perfectly unless we're suggesting the base Killer B without any chakra increases can easily keep up with a near-lightspeed attack.

Or that Ay did not go all out against B? Heck he only truly used his speed against Naruto. If it was near light speed or not, Bee simply kept up with a cloaked Ay which is obviously wrong either way the speed of Ay would not matter base B should not be keeping up with it regardless.

I've reread chapter 460 to chapter 464, which is where Sasuke battles the Raikage. Not once in that fight did Sasuke dodge the Raikage's Lariat. If you could provide scans of when he did that, it'd be useful.

He never dodges a Lariat. But a Lariat is literally raising their hands and running their movement speed at short distances should not be any different. And Sasuke reactions kept up with that. This matches up with Sasuke being able to react to the flash emitted by Cee for his genjutsu attack.

7
The databook seems to be specifically referring to this ranged attack of Mifune's that he has been seen using against the 10-Tails. Not his general combat speed, I'm just noting that because of my next point.

During his fight against Sasuke, Mifune never used this ranged slash.

• Given that he never used a lightspeed attack against Sasuke, it means that there are no supporting feats, statements or calcs from the original manga itself that support Mifune's attack speed being this high.

Mifune's ranged slash was launched at roughly the same time as several other jutsu against the 10-Tails, and as seen on the colour version of the page it landed on the 10-Tails at about the same time.

• This has been dismissed as just a trope that a lot of manga do (attacks of assumedly different speeds being launched at the same time and hitting their target at the same time); but given that the speed from the databook would make Mifune's attack theoretically hundreds of times faster than these other attacks I think this argument is just dismissing it as a trope in order to avoid a contradicting inconsistency.
• If the statement in the databook for Mifune's slash is hyperbolic, then the statements putting Ay and Killer B at near-lightspeed for their Lariat is harder to take seriously.

It is indeed a trope and happens literally everytime, all of this you stated basically nothing. Yes we wont scale it to Mifune's normal attack speed.

8
I don't see how they can be presented as non-hyperbolic just because it is in the main of the desription. Especially considering the lack of speed feats in Naruto that put them at near-lightspeed.

• Sasuke's databook entry isn't in the hype text on the sides but it still says that 'no one who confronts Sasuke has a chance of living' when he combines his speed with his Sharingan.
• It's also interesting that nobody in the actual series itself refers to the Raikage or his attacks as travelling at near-lightspeed. This info solely comes from databooks.

They cant be hyperbolic when they have stated multiple times that the attacks are light speed. About Sasuke speed, this is where it is very clear that you guys don't know how to separate what is a description and what is a broad statement it is like the "impossible to dodge" thing all over again. This entry talks about how it is that Sasuke has incredible speed on his own and the combination of that and the buffs that the sharingan gives him makes him extremely deadly of course not literally no one has a chance of living when fighting sasuke (even though you would note that anyone he set his eyes on at the very least nearly died during the entirety of part 2) the point is that if he out sped you, you were done for which is the case it is in relation to his speed.

1

Ay does not have 'near-lightspeed comabt speed' in base. Saying that he 'forgot to activate his ability' as a point against my version is equally applicable to your own. You might as well ask why he didn't activate his ability before being transported.

2
We might just have to agree to disagree on this point. The anime doesn't show the beams of light coming from above; instead the flash appears to start in front of and below Madara & Kabuto.

3
Are you sure? Has it been worked out in a calc exactly what Madara's reactions and movement speed would be?

4
This is them when they're being transported. Their eyes are closed, they're in pain and they certainly don't look like they're ready to unleash an attack.

5
As for this point, the exact nature of who scales and what characters speed ratings are would need to be settled elsewhere. But even you've got to admit that Madara blocking a surprise lightspeed attack and a stronger Madara failing to block a surprise Obito punch is weird.

6
So is the argument that any movement that Ay and Bee make in their chakra cloak states near-lightspeed? Before it seemed to just be proposing that their Lariat was near-lightspeed.

Where do you see Sasuke reacting to the flash? He just sees through the Genjutsu thanks to his Sharingan.

7
If you won't scale it to Mifune's ordinary combat speed then why did you state this:

> Databook states that he attacks at light speed, supported by the above scaling since he attack and was countered by Sasuke who we have established to be Relativistic according to the Databook entries

8
> They cant be hyperbolic when they have stated multiple times that the attacks are light speed.

The lightspeed statement for Ay's and Bee's Lariat is made only once, isn't it? The only statements from the manga itself for them is just that they're 'fast'.

> About Sasuke speed, this is where it is very clear that you guys don't know how to separate what is a description and what is a broad statement it is like the "impossible to dodge" thing all over again.

At least the 'impossible to dodge' statement came from two different sources which more than can be said for most of these statements.

Hyperbolic descriptions are very frequent in the databooks; like Kidomaru having 'lightning-speed arrows'. It really doesn't seem to be a literal descriptor of speed but just a saying.

I talked to an individual on the site who is native to Japan about the below images (@ShiroyashaGinSan) and they confirmed that the translation below is correct:



This comes directly from the manga and should serve as supporting evidence to the fact that the Raikage has at least Relativistic reaction capabilities.

It's also important to note that this comes from Cee, one of the most analytical individuals that is well trusted by the Raikage and who also has a host of knowledge about foreign shinobi abilities, recognising the Mangekyō Sharingan and Amaterasu.He even knew of Itachi Uchiha's use of Amaterasu, stating that Sasuke was more skilled at manipulating the black flames than the former. He could also deduce how Sasuke's Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi worked after only seeing it once. He is a very serious and credible source in verse.

I've spoken with IMade who has experience translating Japanese text. He states that the full kanji (beyond what has been highlighted in red) is this:

Ú╗äÞë▓Òüä ÚûâÕàë

Which means Yellow Flash.

Which is consistent with the Viz version saying that the Raikage's reactions are on par with Minato (who is referred to as the Yellow Flash).

EDIT: For reference just in case anyone wants to see what I was actually replying to with this post.

I'm going to double check with ShiroyashaGinSan with both translations to see which one is the more accurate. If I'm wrong, I apologize for the innaccuracy.

Hmm, seems like the Viz is more accurate in this case. Forget it then

1

Ay does not have 'near-lightspeed comabt speed' in base. Saying that he 'forgot to activate his ability' as a point against my version is equally applicable to your own. You might as well ask why he didn't activate his ability before being transported.

Combat speed =/= reactions speed. His base does not have near light speed combat speed but that has nothing to do with his reactions even in base he was able to completely blitz white Zetsu without him seeing him move, in the 5 kage meeting.

2
We might just have to agree to disagree on this point. The anime doesn't show the beams of light coming from above; instead the flash appears to start in front of and below Madara & Kabuto.

And yet they still attacked both of them from above and downwards I think that was clearly to show where their arrival point would be.

3
Are you sure? Has it been worked out in a calc exactly what Madara's reactions and movement speed would be?

We did several calcs before making the first thread. He would only need to be Relativistic.

4
This is them when they're being transported. Their eyes are closed, they're in pain and they certainly don't look like they're ready to unleash an attack.

Yeah we see their faces right before they are transported, Minato's body position is always completely different to the position he comes out of his FTG and his is literally instantaneous travel. Like, why would their eyes being closed when they are transported in the very beginning prevent them from opening them along the way?

Additionally, we also know that Tsunade was injured from the transfer technique. I find it highly improbable that an injured Tsunade, without assistance, could react so fast and attack so quickly that Madara could only cross his arms in defense. The same Madara who was not only not blinded by the light as was claimed in earlier threads (his eyes are literally open the entire time), but who has one of the most powerful sharingan in the series couldn't do much against an injured Tsunade?

It's simply much more likely that he couldn't react to them as effectively as they were traveling at LS.

5
As for this point, the exact nature of who scales and what characters speed ratings are would need to be settled elsewhere. But even you've got to admit that Madara blocking a surprise lightspeed attack and a stronger Madara failing to block a surprise Obito punch is weird.

Everything about that Obito is weird which is why he does not yet have a key. Not to mention it is not like Madara actually got injured. Additionally, your replies left out context as to the situation which was why I brought up the "who scales who" in the first place.

Person [W] couldn't react to person [X]'s attack so they can't be [Y] fast.

What you failed to mention was that person [W] was practically immobilized by [Z] which kind of makes the above statement wrong.

6
If you won't scale it to Mifune's ordinary combat speed then why did you state this: > Databook states that he attacks at light speed, supported by the above scaling since he attack and was countered by Sasuke who we have established to be Relativistic according to the Databook entries

Rereading the databook entry I thought it actually made more sense and likely fit the scaling better for it to be restricted to just Issen.

7
> They cant be hyperbolic when they have stated multiple times that the attacks are light speed. The lightspeed statement for Ay's and Bee's Lariat is made only once, isn't it? The only statements from the manga itself for them is just that they're 'fast'. > About Sasuke speed, this is where it is very clear that you guys don't know how to separate what is a description and what is a broad statement it is like the "impossible to dodge" thing all over again. At least the 'impossible to dodge' statement came from two different sources which more than can be said for most of these statements. Hyperbolic descriptions are very frequent in the databooks; like Kidomaru having 'lightning-speed arrows'. It really doesn't seem to be a literal descriptor of speed but just a saying.

I am talking about multiple light speed statements not specific to Ay and Bee. What two sources? as far as I know it is just the datatbook. Looking at the Kidomaru raws I don't see any Kanji for "lightning speed". This looks like a mistranslation which people also use to discredit the databooks quite a lot. Also I assume that this is for Kidomaru's giant arrow in which Neji could very barely react to it and literally had to get hit as he had no way to dodge, I doubt Kidomaru's speed in itself would scale to that arrow even if it was correct translation.

From what I read the other thread, besides Haku's case, all the other statements were no longer considered hyperbole in the first thread and looks generally accepted: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TataHakai/Naruto:_The_Speed_Of_Hyperbole

I do see a case for Relastivistic reaction speed for the top tiers from @Jvando's arguments

I agree with Elizhaa and Jvando

I'm personally fine with Relativistic Lariat, that one seems to have the least going against it personally

Elizhaa and Jvando also seems to make sense

@TataHakai; it is Relativistic+ Lariat that is being proposed, which also seems to have evolved into making every attack with Lightning Chakra Mode to be Relativistic+.

It also carries strange implications like Hebi Sasuke being even higher up the Relativistic+ rating than Killer B with his Tailed Beast cloak active.

I don't doubt that the Raikage's and B are fast - they are stated to be so multiple times - but it is well above every feat performed by them in the verse.

The only supporting feat being offered is that the Raikage may have reacted in time to punch Muu while being moved at lightspeed.

I think you mean Taka Sasuke

Also if a character is stated to be Near Light speed then we have a feat of someone performing a Relativistic move (Taka Sasuke) isn't that support of it? Or is that circular reasoning

Personally i believe Lariat kinda works like the Shunshin no jutsu, so a quick increase in speed and power through chakra manipulation.

Also we have characters later on performing Light Speed attacks to be fair, so maybe Relativistic+ speed for Bee/A and whoever scales wouldn't seem too nonsensical

Edit: There's also Guy's feat of bending space with night guy, now despite this not being enough proof on its own we have used it as support of Relativistic Naruto characters before so it should be fine to use as support.

> Also if a character is stated to be Near Light speed then we have a feat of someone performing a Relativistic move (Taka Sasuke) isn't that support of it? Or is that circular reasoning

If the Relativistic feat is based off of the prior statement, then it is a circular.

If Sasuke had his own Relativistic feat, that'd be a different thing entirely.

Depending on scaling it really depends because we also have instances like Jugo being able to outrun / dodge Killer B's "near-lightspeed" attack, which took place right after the feat of Sasuke evading it.

I think it should be noted that there is a difference between characters performing lightspeed attacks and characters moving at near-lightspeed.

Madara's Light Fang is an energy beam he shoots from his mouth at lightspeed granting him Lightspeed Attack Speed, but that has no effect on his combat speed, reaction speed, etc.

Ok i suppose that your point on it being circular reasoning does make sense, i was wary of that point anyways

My point on Madara's LF being Light speed wasn't so much to do with scaling but more so that Light speed isn't a weird thing for the verse, it's a constant

Also i'm assuming you're fine with the Might Guy feat being support?

My argument hasn't been that lightspeed is non-existant for the verse, but on who and what it should apply to.

I'm neutral on the Might Guy feat; however I would find it interesting if we considered Might Guy to be relativistic for warping space through movement - but Ay and Killer B who are supposedly Relativistic+ do not show any indications of warping space when they attack.

Damage3245 said:

Depending on scaling it really depends because we also have instances like Jugo being able to outrun / dodge Killer B's "near-lightspeed" attack, which took place right after the feat of Sasuke evading it.

Click to expand...

Also Killer B never used Lariat on jugo

And upon further investigation i don't think we can scale Taka sasuke to it either, as he needed the Sharingans precognition to dodge it

So it'll likely only be Top tiers and God tiers who scale

"I'm neutral on the Might Guy feat; however I would find it interesting if we considered Might Guy to be relativistic for warping space through movement - but Ay and Killer B who are supposedly Relativistic+ do not show any indications of warping space when they attack."

This is more to do with how we treat feats in this wikia, Might guy bending space with sheer speed means he's approaching the speed of light, but just because others didn't bend space as they approached the speed of light doesn't mean they aren't approaching it,

A similar example would be SSJ3 first transformation causing earthquakes and stuff because of how strong it was, just because later on stronger transformations didn't cause earthquakes doesn't mean they weren't as strong or powerful, i think showings like this are very selective by authors.

> Also Killer B never used Lariat on jugo

I meant that Killer B used Lariat to charge at Sasuke, and even though he missed him he didn't show any signs of decelerating or suddenly slowing down afterwards.

> And upon further investigation i don't think we can scale Taka sasuke to it either, as he needed the Sharingans precognition to dodge it

I see. So you're proposing that M3X's calc for Taka Sasuke shouldn't be used and that the Relativistic+ movement should only apply to when they use the Lariat technique?

Damage3245 said:

> Also Killer B never used Lariat on jugo
I meant that Killer B used Lariat to charge at Sasuke, and even though he missed him he didn't show any signs of decelerating or suddenly slowing down afterwards.

> And upon further investigation i don't think we can scale Taka sasuke to it either, as he needed the Sharingans precognition to dodge it

I see. So you're proposing that M3X's calc for Taka Sasuke shouldn't be used and that the Relativistic+ movement should only apply to when they use the Lariat technique?

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Yeah, i think Lariat should be more attack speed anyways as it's a short burst of movement (Like Black clover)

Though the God and Some top tiers should by common sense scale above this in all forms of movement, in terms of Bee, Ay and those around them though

Maybe

A and Killer Bee: Massively Hypersonic+, Relativistic+ Attack speed with Lariat?

For God and Some Top tiers like Hagoromo, Kaguya etc: Relativistic+ (Far superior to Bee and Ay who can move at these speeds in Short bursts)

As much as I personally feel like using the databook alone to justify this is excessive, restricting to the attack speed of the Lariat is a fair compromise.

As for the scaling of the Top Tier / God Tier, that kind of thing would need to be discussed and examined in another thread probably so that proper justifications are being used instead of us just feeling like they should be faster.

I agree on your second point, it will need a whole 'nother thread to scale anyone to it.

I'll take it that you're fine with Relativistic+ Lariat then, since no one else out of everyone here is against it i'll assume it's good to go, as for the rest i have no comment on them as they are way more controversial and you've pointed out some reasonable arguments against them.

As far as the Lariat goes, I'm fine with the proposed compromise for now.

I still don't think that Mifune's Issen being lightspeed is legit because of its depiction alongside other attacks in the manga, and I'm unconvinced by Madara and Kabuto/Mu reacting to lightspeed attacks.

I'm fine with that

This thread should be concluded i suppose unless anyone has anything else to say and we can move on to scaling from the accepted result.

Nah, we're good. These past few days have been exhausting anyway so I don't think I can go any further I swear I'm never bringing these up agai

I think we should give it a day for any other staff members to comment or ask questions if they want.

That's fair enough

I've made a calc for a character reacting to Lariat which resulted in mach 23k so that's a start at least for scaling wise

But we should wait a day at least like Damage said before applying or making scaling threads.

is possible to upgrade even if there isnt any calc to confirm?

If you are neither Damage, me, nor a staff member (the people who have names with a color other than blue), please refrain from commenting. If you have something to say, post it on either Damage's or my wall.

To address it generally without responding to that particular calc;

The current highest used speed calc in the verse is Shino's Mach 6800 calc from the Boruto anime. I have my own issues with that one, but leaving those aside and looking at the results by itself:

That calc is over twice as high as most other significant speed feats in the verse, and the proposed 51% lightspeed attack speed for the Raikage and Killer Bee is about seventy times higher than Shino's calc (or in other words, the proposed speed would be at about 140 times faster than most significant speed calcs in the verse).

What conclusions can be drawn from that, I'm not 100% sure, but it isn't exactly a smooth progression in ratings.

@Damage, to be honest, I would rather not leave you unconvinced so I think I have one more explanation as to why it wouldn't be possible for Ay and Tsunade to have landed first before attacking. (If you still aren't convinced after this, I don't think I have anything more I can say lol).



Madara and Muu on top of a stone looking down at their opponents who are at ground level

So, on page 2 chapter 562, we see that Madara and Muu were at a considerable vantage position:



Fast forward some panels and all that we get are some flashbacks and some dialogue and scene changes, but nothing indicating that Madara and Muu had ever dropped down before attacking or anything. Now then, we then approach chapter 13 where we simply see Madara and Muu attacking and you can even see that they are in the air, looking down at Naruto, Gaara, Temari, and whoever else is there. The conclusion here is that Madara and Muu simply jumped off their higher vantage position (From page 2 in the Panel above) and dashed downward towards the people below.



Now we have the final image in which Tsunade and Ay are directly attacking Madara and Muu respectively while at the horizontal (I personally believe that they are attacking from a slightly higher vantage point but that's besides point).


The point I want to make is that since Madara and Muu were in the air as they were dashing towards the people below, Tsuande and Ay would have had attacked them from below if they had landed first. In fact, in that last panel you can see Madara is still in the air as he's being hit by Tsunade, so since Tsunade and Ay had attacked them horizontally (Straight on, not from below), it is more than likely that they had done so because they were still traveling under the effects of the LS transport and hadn't landed yet.

@Jvando; for the second image you've posted, the light that illuminates Madara and Mu is coming from below them (or at least from a lower vantage point).

This contradicts the idea of Tsunade and Ay coming at them from a higher vantage point. How could the light from their arrival and their physical bodies by coming at them from two different directions?

Additionally Damage, manga artists more than likely don't care for smooth progression of speed in terms of what we can gain from calculations or feats on panel.

NNT sent from MHS+ to Rel Jan single calc and while that only applies to the God tiers, it is just an example.

Besides that, however, I'm still of the belief that the Madara feat is valid based on the information we have and should be applied which is more of a supporting feat than anything.

Damage3245 said:

@Jvando; for the second image you've posted, the light that illuminates Madara and Mu is coming from below them (or at least from a lower vantage point).
This contradicts the idea of Tsunade and Ay coming at them from a higher vantage point. How could the light from their arrival and their physical bodies by coming at them from two different directions?

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In the anime also, Tsunade and Ay are slightly higher/around the same level than both Madara and Muu
it doesn't make much sense for Raikage and Tsunade to fall down, jump up then kick Madara and Muu all before Madara or Muu could react to either of them

@TataHakai; why would you assume that neither Madara or Muu could react to them? The flash of light ahead of them clearly alerted them that something was happening so they at least reacted to that before the attacks.

Then when the attacks do happened Madara reacts and blocks, while Kabuto is unable to block.

I gave possible explanations for the latter; the Raikage's punch being slightly faster than Tsunade's kick, Kabuto's reactions being slower than Madara's, Kabuto being a bit more surprised than Madara, etc.

If you're bringing up the anime version, remember that the anime version also shows the light forming in front and below Madara and Kabuto. If the light is supposed to be Tsunade and the Raikage appearing from above, then the light should have began flashing from above them.

To add on to Tata, the manga basically shows the same thing. I don't know why the light was drawn that way, but it contradicts what we are shown on panel in that Tsunade and Ay attacked from the same level of height (or slightly above) as Madara and Muu and not from below. I see where you are coming from @Damage, but just about everything else simply contradicts he notion that Tsunade and Ay landed before attacking, especially since they would have had to attain a sufficient height to meet Madara and Muu in mid-air; a height that would have allowed for more than enough time for Madara to react (especially to an injured Tsunade).

@Jvando; Madara is a god, I know, but even he can be surprised by two new enemies appearing seemingly out of a flash of light ahead of him - and to his credit he still manages to block the attack.

isn't Madara faster than Tsunade Damage?

Damage3245 said:

@TataHakai; why would you assume that neither Madara or Muu could react to them? The flash of light ahead of them clearly alerted them that something was happening so they at least reacted to that before the attacks.

Then when the attacks do happened Madara reacts and blocks, while Kabuto is unable to block.

I gave possible explanations for the latter; the Raikage's punch being slightly faster than Tsunade's kick, Kabuto's reactions being slower than Madara's, Kabuto being a bit more surprised than Madara, etc.

If you're bringing up the anime version, remember that the anime version also shows the light forming in front and below Madara and Kabuto. If the light is supposed to be Tsunade and the Raikage appearing from above, then the light should have began flashing from above them.

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Madara is one of the best sharingan users in the series. It would not have been possible for an injured Tsunade to surprise attack him especially if she had enough time to land and then jump back up again to meet them in the air. You also need to assume a lot about Kabuto's reactions which may or may not be true based on what we know of him because remember, Muu is a sensor and Kabuto is a sage. Ay is also in base. Kabuto would have had more than ample time to react if they had landed first.