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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread 2

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LordAizenSama

LordAizenSama

VS Battles
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This thread is intended to promote discussion about the verse, mainly to improve and create new character profiles, but conversations about the characters, light novels, anime, manga and other media of the series are also welcomed here.

Large or general changes in the verse's stats should still be discussed in a separate thread on the content revision board in order to get the necessary attention. This thread is for discussing individual characters and for general talk about the series.

The Previous Discussion thread is here
 
We need some character pages for the character in the Accelerator spin-off. I haven't read the manga's myself and have only followed discussions on them so I don't think I can make one myself.
 
I don't think there are very good feats though. Accelerator hasn't really been pushed by these enemies, only ever being taken out of action because he messed with magic and because his power interacted with another one in a strange way. Maybe teddy bear girl would be worth it, I guess.
 
I think that Seike girl would be a interesting profile, honestly think she has quite good potential.

Also those mechs seem cool.

Also, reading the new translated chapter today gives me a strange sense of star wars, on how losing limbs decreases your power output and the talk of a soul..
 
So your saying that because they can't harm Accelerator they aren't worth it? You do realize it's not really fair to call some "unworthy" for losing to a guy who is literally untouchable by conventional means.
 
No, I mean we can't scale them to Accel or anything, the only really scaleable character shown so far.

Unless you wanna scale with Yomikawa...yea...
 
Just because they were no true threat to accel doesn't mean they are not worth it there are a lot of characters who around the same level with profiles in this the page seriously the only esper in the entier seires who can take accel head to head and be threat to him kakine

we can go by feat ...

also i would love to see a profile for Seike
 
Oh yeah, we never got around to adding that or removing the "can partially control divine entities and magic" bit. Now that I think about it, Mikoto's Power and Abilties section should probably be simplified, leaving the more specific applications of her ability to the "Notable Attacks/Techniques" part. I can't do anything with Accelerator's page, but I'll fix Mikoto's.

As a side-note, I'm kind of curious as to the reason the Taotie could teleport Accel. Is it because of the boost it just received or the Qiong Qi's trick to bypass his reflection? Or is it because it, being an ability that swaps the positions of two objects, has different mechanics than normal Teleporters?
 
Since the Accelerator spinoff was mentioned, I chose Hasami's page as the third page to do from it. Do you think this merits Supersonic reactions? After that page she also reacts to Accelerator moving between her and the bullets, and she fought Naru who reacted to a DA soldier shooting her in the back by intercepting the bullets with her papers.
 
It likely does. Its technically easy enough to calculate how fast she moved her arms there to be sure, but I don't have time today to do so.
 
Most of them don't have much going for them:

Prototype Coffin seems able to cause notable damage to the ground fighting Accelerator. It shot its fireballs, creating an explosion and damaging a large section of the ground and making a crater around Accel. He later makes a large wall of fire. Anti-Skill estimated it to be Lv 4 in power. Durability is Unknown since Accel oneshots it, but likely Building level, as it's hard to believe an experimental superweapon being weaker than a mass-produced HsPS-15. Speed is Unknown, so the best we could do is "at least Superhuman".

Other Coffins should also be Building level Durability, with Qiong Qi possibly higher with its Lv 5 Psychokinesis. Speed likely "at least Subsonic", as Hundun escapes from Accel using some kind of rocket boosters, and Qiong Qi and Taotie mostly keep up with them. Hundun's AP since it didn't attack before being destroyed, it just grabbed the Sister and ran. Possibly Street level with its mechanical arms, just to give it something beyond flight and its apparent camouflage ability (Maybe the same Chameleon stuff the DA grunt used in chapter 1).

Qiong Qi destroyed a ceiling, fought against Accel with its undescribed trick and dispersed Accel's wind attack and wind wall. It also melted a human (somehow).

Taotie has its gatling guns (likely Wall level by scaling thm to the Tarantula's), its missiles and its super cannon. Problem is that the chapter where it used the cannon seems to have some scale issues (Just look at the Qiong Qi become gigantic as it peers around a building, or at Accel become a giant as he stops the building's section from crushing a whole street of civilians), so I don't know how reliable the calc for it would be. We could always scale it to at least Building level, as it's clearly much stronger than an anti-barrier shotgun or Mikoto's Railgun.

The Scavenger leader is a recon/tracking-type support esper like Takitsubou, so her page is probably not worth it.

Ya has her special coolant that can quickly freeze a person and her liquid thermite reactions.

Seike has lifting a grown man and breaking his neack with one hand and using her powers to stop the Tarantula from charging her. She can also boost herself with her special gun.

Naru has her explosive paper planes (still don't know how she did that, maybe they were carrying Ya's chemicals) and reacting to Hasami and bullets. Her bunny suit has creating a crater, blitzing Yomikawa and breaking her combat shield, throwing Hasami into a wall and the whole excavator thing. Her paper can block bullets and tank Ya's liquid thermite reaction.
 
For Freyja: Was the 500+ meter Mokkerkalfe not also a spell from her? It was stated that it is Freyjas territory at least.
 
Yeah, it was said to belong to Freyja. But like I mentioned in the first thread, given that the Mokkerkalfe mainly operates on its own and that Freyja's page already has several keys, I thought it would be better to give it its own page. There's also a much weaker British Mokkerkalfe that could be added to that page as a second key.
 
Hmm.. fair enough. Might be listed as possible equipement for her if that page is created then or something.

Reminds me that I still wanted to figure out which AP that size justifies...
 
I can't believe we're almost done with Gremlin. We could always do a page for the Artificial Valkyries, they are pretty tough to put down.

Would swatting some HsBs out of the air give Mökkurkalfe Hypersonic reactions?
 
So calc 2/3 finished. This gives exactly what expected and what is already noted as likely on the profile. So if it gets accepted the likely can probably be removed.


I would think swatting them out of the air would justify such reactions, yes.
 
It's still good to have a calc backing up her reactions. And Mokkurkalfe's calc got more than I expected. Pretty good for Kamachi's second biggest monster.
 
Just looking at Thor's profile, do we not have a key for his Almighty form? how exactly do we interpret that? He did solo gremlin after all.
 
It's hard to say how that fight went since it was... Well, I was going to say "solved offscreen", but this is a novel so I'm not sure that's the right term. Anyway, we don't know how he defeated them, and going by his following fight with Touma, Almighty Thor is a spell he throws on top of everything else and not something that increases his strength. Normally he would be able to use it with his arc blades and super strength, but without Mjolnir's support it's just the Almighty spell alone, which is why he told Touma that it was his best chance to beat him.
 
Mmm, In either case hes certainly the top guy after othinus, so his current tiering seems odd. kinda like how Ollerus used to be in tier 8.

I mean:

> Silvia was astonished at his level of power, considering it comparable to hers


>8-A

Looks silly. He should be scaled to either Silvia or Hel, since his superior to the latter.
 
I agree with you, but besides his own claims that he'd be the leader of Gremlin if Othinus didn't exist, him being the "representative combat member" of the organization, and Silvia being surprised at his power we don't have much going on for him.

I discussed the possibility of upgrading his AP with DontTalk in the first thread, but considering none of Gremlin's combat members has good durability and that Almighty Thor already puts him pretty far up in the power scale due to hax alone, we decided to leave it as 8A, as being "strong" or "powerful" doesn't always necessarily mean raw power in the series, and Thor appears to be one of those cases.
 
Mmm. Just the fact that Thor would not even be able to tickle a saint according to our profiles irks me so.

By my rough estimates the difference between Thor and Silvia would be (assuming thor is highest end MCB and Silvia is lowest Mountain level) a difference of...100,000x ;\
 
It might be another of Kamachi's inconsistencies. He probably doens't realize how powerful he has made Saints be, just like he doesn't realize how fast he has made some of his characters. In the same fight Thor says that he doesn't know who to praise more, Mikoto for keeping up with a Saint, or Brunhild for continuing to fight at supersonic speeds after a Railgun, when Saints have tanked or blocked much more powerful attacks without trouble.

Personally, I also think Thor is much higher than 8-A. But I think the "at least 8-A" for the statement about destroying half a city in a clash is a good compromise.
 
Mmm, however reading your discussion with DT leaves me confused. I'm getting the impression somewhere down the line confusion crept in.

I mean the city thing quote you mention is eeeh, Destructive Capacity is a bit different from Attack Potency. And hes also mentioned a country likely being destroyed in the process of a fighting strong foes.

Silvia says his strength is equal to hers whilst thinking to herself watching his arc fusion blades, I think DT got confused with thinking Thor's almighty form was the reason Silvia thinks Thor is comparable to her? (I don't think she is even aware of that power?)

Another reason I saw against the scaling was that he had the disadvantage the entire fight, however that would be attributed to the speed discrepancy and not the attack potency.

In any case, if nothing comes of discussing it here it'll would probably get more recognition/opinions in a actual upgrade thread.
 
I should point out that the Saints despite being mountain level in attack power. (Although I'd still argue that they are town/city level.) That doesn't mean they can directly tank the attacks themselves. Kaori with her fight with Gabriel blocked and sliced the wings and never once took a direct hit. In fact Carissa with the Curtana shards is the only magic side character to take a direct hit from a wing and even though she survived it was implied to really hurt and knock the wind out of her. And Carissa is implied to by WAY above a Saint with the Curtana in stats.

The Railgun might be seen as like a bullet to a Saint. a lot of force in a small area, if that same force was spread out it might not hurt as much, Thor's Arc Fusion blades also seem to act like Light sabers and Touma couldn't negate it due to be generated continueously. The Saints might be able to enhance their stats but they are still vulnerable to burns and cuts and piercing. Mikoto's Lightning is not even a fraction of Mountain level but I can see it hurting someone of that level if they have a nervous system and aren't particularly electric resistent. (Which is what happened until Brunhild "forcibly recovered" which I'm assumed is healing with the Stigma.)

So there is that.
 
@LazyHunter: To the railgun discussion we had in the vs-thread. You're right, seems to be stated in the volume. Personally I think it shouldn't work in the logic of IB as the movement of the coin isn't more related to misakas power than are for example objects thrown around by accelerator or basically the heating up of another object after throwing a fireball at it. For misakas iron sand I always assumed that it basically stops on contact since it's sand and will, once the force is gone, stop almost instantly due to dispersing and high friction and stuff.

But looking up the railgun part I came upon a quote from volume 1:

"Not even the Level 5 Biri Biri girl's Railgun that could destroy a nuclear shelter in one blow was an exception to that. "

Opinions on that?
 
Thinking about it again, it's probably an inconsistency since I can't remember if it was stated again later on. I know the crossover isn't canon, but there Mikoto's Railgun did nothing to Yukari, so he might have changed his mind on the matter and decided it didn't count as supernatural.

As for the quote, I had almost forgotten that one. The problem would be the inconsistencies, wouldn't it? I can't remember it being described as powerful as that in other novels. In WWIII the Sister that was with her noted that modern tanks shoot at Mach 4, surpassing her Railgun, and Mikoto's retort is that she has more than the Railgun in her arsenal, even if some people reduce her to that. Plus the FIVE_Over and the AAA are supposed to have stronger railguns than her. Earlier volumes have some stuff like that, such as the "Mikoto's lightning=speed of light" stuff. If we disregard the later, we should probably disregard the former too.
 
So the raws for Railgun 87 are out. I wasn't expecting it, but we have more cameos! This time from the Accelerator manga, as apparently the Scavengers were sent after the machine Kuriba. They are going to get their asses kicked again, aren't they? At least we might get to see machine Kuriba in action.
 
Hmm... Yes, I agree about the railgun. In a sense it seems to be an outlier given how many people it would scale to that are currently ranked far lower like therestina, salome etc. and as you mentioned the five_overs.


So the scavanges were sent? hmm... Is railgun currently playing before or after the accel manga?
 
After, Railgun manga is currently after OT15 since Battle Royale already happened. Accelerator manga is just after OT5, as Accelerator and Yoshikawa were still recovering in the hospital at the start, his head injury reopened in the earlier chapters and his choker is even more limited than in OT8.

Accelerator 26's raws were also released. Predictably, Estelle and Accel didn't manage to stop Hishigata from inserting the memories of the Sisters' deaths into Hirumi, so I hope we're getting to the end of the arc with Hirumi/Taowu as the final boss. The first Railgun arc were just 17 chapters counting the first 3 or so that were an introduction to the characters, so this is a pretty long first arc.
 
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