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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread

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LazyHunter

LazyHunter

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So me, DontTalk and LordAizenSama have been improving Toaruverse character profiles and making new ones. Our discussions on this subject do clutter DontTalk's message wall a bit, and sometimes we end up talking about other things/characters in the verse unrelated to the thread's topic. I suggested making a more general thread to talk about the verse, and they both agreed it might be a better idea than doing it over multiple message wall threads. If we're lucky we'll also get the input and contribution from other members of the wiki that might be interested in the series.

This thread is intended to promote discussion about the verse, mainly to improve and create new character profiles, but conversations about the characters, light novels, anime, manga and other media of the series are also welcomed here. Of course as DontTalk pointed out, large or general changes in the verse's stats should still be discussed in a separate thread on the content revision board in order to get the necessary attention. This thread is for discussing individual characters and for general talk about the series.
 
oh, to be honest they are all probably mid tier at the moment, with Accelerator pushing the boundaries a bit, it's kind of hard as you mention, they aren't all equal, at least in combat anyway like Misaki, but she has some pretty good mind control.

on seconds thoughts though you could probably Put Accelerator as a High tier
 
Their in-universe tier is harder to place due to the way the series works. Unlike magicians, who can learn magic to protect themselves and move faster, you're pretty much screwed as an esper if your power doesn't have a defensive/speed boosting application. IMO the current in-universe tier would be something like this (names in each tier are not in order of strength):

God tier: Magic Gods, Aleister, likely Aiwass

-huge gap-

Top tier: Ollerus, Fiamma, Gabriel

-gap-

High tier: Accelerator, Kakine, Kazakiri, Level 6 Shift Mikoto, Saints and Saint-level magicians, possibly Gunha

Mid tier: Skilled magicians, Mikoto, Mugino, Misaki (just her ability, otherwise low tier), some strong espers (mainly some Level 4s)

Low tier: Weak magicians, lower level espers, people without powers

Normal High School Boy Tier: Touma, Kakeru

Golden Retriever Tier: Noukan
 
^ I'm currently trying to make more Science profiles to balance out all the Magic ones we've done so far. Kiyama Harumi and the AIM Burst are definitely two of the ones I want to make soon. Besides the esper in wannabe ITEM with the hax defensive power, of course.

I just finished making Komaba Ritoku's profile, since we can likely scale most powered suits' melee AP and speed to him. I was thinking of doing the HsPs-15 next, but I'll have to search through OT14 to see what it was capable of. We can likely scale the Durability of most powered suits and advanced AC machines to it unless they're explicitely fragile like the Equ.Dark Matters.
 
lol probably some of the Kiharas then. Though tbh science other than Aiwass and Aleister can't really compare to magic as of yet lol
 
AIM Burst would be interesting. It would basically regenerate from everything as long aa the minds of the 10000 level upper users keep linked to it, and even after that has high regen.

List of abilities (Basically list of all abilities the effected espers have and Harumi displayed):

-Telekinesis: Moving things from a distance and levitating objects, also powerful enough to stop bullets in mid air and move large pieces of ground and rubble, either that or earth manipulating can be used to make a bridge collapse

-Flux Coat: The ability to manipulate the movement and change the viscosity of asphalt

-Dummy Check: The ability to not be noticed by people, even if one is seen by them.

-Synchrotron: The ability to accelerate gravitons and by that turn alluminium into bombs.

-Pyrokinesis: Creating flames, that can chase the target (that would be anime only though)

-Aero Hand: The ability to Propel objects by using ejection points of air.

-Trick Art: The ability to distort light around oneself to create an illusion of oneself with a changed position.

-Air Manipulation: The ability to move the air around (seemingly caused an explosion, but unknown if directly related to that ability and how it was done) can also slice stuff using that

-Water manipulation: Manipulating the movement of water and by that create streams of water to hit opponents, can also create water bullets that can leave relatively large holes in walls

-Causing explosion powerful enough to send cars flying

-creating some beam vaporizing stuff

-teleportation (move point of unknown level to be accurate)

-(likely some other abilities to moving specific objects, but its properly best to just list them all under telekinesis)

-flight

-growing larger while regenerating

-Insulating Forcefield

-Ice projectiles or something like that


In a way Harumi might be a better fighter due to intelligent use of the abilities.

To the stats:

Not much good there. No speed feat for either of them. Well Harumi probably Supersonic+ reactions for stopping bullets mid air. teleportation helps.

AP: Wall level for now, but I may calculate some of the explosions and see if I can find something good.

Durability: Town level against electricity with forcefield. Aside from that not very high, basically average flesh durability.

Striking strength: Wall level for aim burst.

Lifting strength: Probably Class 5 for some of the larger boulders, not sure.

Any Additions?

(Sources: Obvious parts of volume 2 and 3 + ToAruWikia for list of Users)
 
I'd like to see Laura Stuart do something, she's supposedly stronger than Kanzaki, and Didn't she have the other index remote control? would be OP.
 
^^^

That's more or less the level I was thinking about, since most of her abilities are low level esper ones. Here's a video of her fight with Mikoto (non-english subs, however):

Looking through the video for other stuff:

She created a small circular hole in the bridge at distance, the matter appears to simply disappear and she didn't need to point at it so it's not the same as the similar ability she uses later to cut concrete. Possibly the same ability used in the manga to do this to one of the security robots, though that could have been her vaporizing beam.

There's also the energy beam she produced from her palm like a blade to smash a piece of concrete Mikoto threw to her.

She has some kind of ability to slice circular pieces of concrete at distance by pointing, she uses that when Mikoto is sticking to a pillar to make her fall in the anime (instead of disintegrating/vaporizing it like she did in the manga).

She creates a slicing wave that travels through the ground (seems bigger in the manga than the anime version).

She slows down her fall, likely with Telekinesis (so possibly levitation).

To teleport things (anime-only, in manga she uses telekinesis to move the can around in a big circle while Mikoto is distracted destroying the othes) she seems to need to touch them, so normal Teleport instead of Move Point.

She should also have the ice manipluation AIM Burst used, considering the two have access to the same Level Upper network.

Collapsing the section of the bridge and Synnchrotron (which would be Level 4, as the two Synchrotron users shown that had used Level Upper were a Level 2 that boosted his ability enough to be considered Level 4 and an actual Level 4) could be higher than Wall level, but that's it. Her strength in-universe is more of a "versatility over raw power" deal, as espers can't have more than one ability.

Here's the AIM Burst vs Mikoto (non-english subs): it also uses some kind of yellow energy bullets at the start.

^^

But that's from the Silent Party Arc and a particularily terrible anime filler if you know the source material. The only thing that I consider legitimate is Mikoto using her electricity to move her muscles after being paralyzed with a drug. We already knew she can conduct electricity through her own body, so it's a logical application of that skill. Not like the super speed she suddenly displays out of nowhere in the last episode.

Fortunately Kongou should be capable of doing that in cano.

^

She has been depicted as the only person who more or less is still competing with Aleister in manipulating the world, she knew about True Gremlin, etc... Laura Stuart will likely do some good stuff near endgame, but for now all she has is the Index controller and the thing where she blew up the carriage she and Elizard were prisoners with her hair in some way despite being under magical restraints.

Powerscaling would put her at least over Kanzaki and maybe at Elizard levels, as Knight Leader told Kanzaki that to face him she would need to bring the leader of one of the two other English magical factions.
 
DontTalk said:
Maybe a bit above wall level?
Click to expand...
...Well, that's a bit higher than what I expected it to be. Nice calc.

I've been looking for stuff for the HsPs-15's stats. So far I've got:

AP: Wall level melee; should be at least as strong as Komaba Ritoku, who's using Hard Taping found in powered suits, likely a bit higher considering it's an entire suit and not just part of it, but probably not enough to increase level.

Speed: at least Subsonic; Powered suits use Hard Taping to obtain mobility and speed superior to normal vechicles. The novel claims powered suits can move 10 times faster than a normal vehicle with Hard Taping, but doesn't especify which kind of vehicle, so instead I went with the "outstrip a train" statement given for Ritoku's Hard Taping, as that's supported by later feats of Powered Suits in OT20. It is possible that Hard Taping users can't actually use it to its full potential due to the strain subsonic speeds already cause in their bodies and the lack of safety measures a Powered Suit would have. But HsPs-15 are described in the novel as increasing the wearer's mobility from twice normal to dozens of times normal. Should we leave it as Subsonic or add a "possibly Transonic"?

Durability: Wasn't harmed or bothered by a car exploding after landing on it and crushing it, Tsuchimikado states they should be able to take an anti-tank missile straight on despite their armor looking thin.

Now, I also want to make a profile for the anti-barrier revolver shotgun, as we've seen them in use by normal HsPs-15s, by Therestina and even by Anti-Skill during the fight with the AIM Burst (as a prototype). I've got this part from the novels for the actual shells:

The shells used in those guns were special. Inside a single shell were a few dozen bullets that would usually be classified as anti-materiel. Each shot could blow straight through a tank and at close range a few shots could force open the door to a nuclear shelter. Usually, the barrel wouldn't hold up to the explosive force of the gunpowder, but, by delicately controlling the type and arrangement of the gunpowder, the direction of the explosive force could be controlled so that the lowest possible amount of damage was given to the barrel and the greatest possible amount of destructive force was released.

Considering this profile: M1 Abrams, should it be small building to building level?

The blanks the HsPs-15 use against the rioters in the novel are described as knocking the air out of people's lungs and knocking them to the ground, shattering a car's windows and bending in its metal door, so Street level.
 
About Accelerator reflection, in a lot of threads people are putting an cap to the speed he is able to reflect and saying is lightspeed, but shouldn't his "cap" reflection speed be related to his calc capabilities? If so, he should be way beyond c since he is faster than supercomputers.
 
slightly unrelated to that, I have been doing a little unrelated thinking on his reflection, Wouldn't Accelerator be harmed by UV light now due to the lack of pigmentation, or whatever it was that protects against it?

I've been thinking, maybe he has enough calculation ability in his "off esper mode" state just to reflect UV light, correct his walking/hearing/coordination and nothing else. thoughts?
 
^

No, I don't think the choker's normal mode allows him to reflect UV. It's described in the novels as just making up for his basic damaged brain functions:

The normal mode that allowed him to walk, talk, count, etc.


He has to explicitly turn esper mode on to use his vector control. Would be funny if Kamachi went and say it did, because the battery in normal mode lasted 48 hours originally, while it was consumed in 15 minutes by turning esper mode. The difference in calculation support by the Misaka Network is very obvious and it would destroy the "can only reflect up to lighspeed or 2 times lightspeed" limit we have for him..

^^

Problem with Accel's ability is that the series describes his ability as redirecting vectors away from him no matter the magnitude by inverting their direction. He has problems with attacks with weird vectors or that trick his reflection, but normal physical vectors should be a piece of cake for him since he has had his reflection since he was a 6 year olds kid and has only gotten better calculation abilities and stronger since that point. But that's a NLF, so by now Accelerator is limited by his biggest feat, which is reflecting light very casually.

As a side note, we now have the profiles of the four ninjas of the verse. Shame Hanzou's cool line about ninjas is too big to put under his picture.
 
However assuming it doesn't, he should be affected rather badly by Light. and wasn't the Normal mode just him using very minimal calculations to do such things?

about the NLF though, it shouldn't be one as it doesn't fit the Description of NLFs, however for simplicities sake we just go with that line of reasoning though.

EDIT: forget that second part, didn't realise you were talking about Light, Thought u just meant reflecting AP/DC in general
 
But what about his reflection speed be linked to his calculation ability? if his inteligence exceeds hundreds of super computers and he reflects UV rays more than casually his maximum speed should be pretty high, couldn't be just added a third note about this?
 
^well, there's also the argument it only works upto lightspeed because of Physics, theoretically nothing should be normally going faster than Light.However this is To Aru and Accelerator has been able to reflect teleportation so that probably throws that out

EDIT: also nice work with the profiles Lazy, you did a crapload of them. heck I think we're running out of characters now
 
i think this is a good thread to ask:

why are saints rated as hypersonic/HS+ or high hypersonic? (this is mach 20 or higher)

i can understand it if it is reaction time but the novel uses "around the speed of sound" for the upper-regions of a saints movement speed and this several times :I
 
^^

Once again you try to downplay Toaru characters with flawed reasoning, like when you argued Accel's statement about reflecting light was false because another character in the verse had lied once, despite Accel being able to reflect normal light being an important part of his fight with Kakine thus proving he was telling the truth.

Kamachi describes almost everything that is moving faster than sound as just "supersonic" or "faster than sound" much more times than he uses "around the speed of sound", no matter how many times faster than sound that thing or character is. For example, the HsF-00 and the HsB-07 are described as supersonic planes despite having a top speed of 7000 km/h. "Supersonic" and "faster than sound" are technically correct terms to refer to anything that's above 343.2 m/s. So we go by feats to determine speeds, as we can't expect fiction writers to give us all speeds in Mach terms or use categories like Supersonic+ or Massively Hypersonic in their stories.
 
yeah @gabriel the reasoning with that argument is Accelerator uses physics, and follows the laws of science to a degree

@GreatestSin because the author has no clue how fast hes making characters, and it's also just a way to describe they're really fast, otherwise we would get Lightspeed attacks, and lightspeed reactions from Misaka clones based on this:

"She released a lightning spear from it.

The spear of purple electricity moved forward at the speed of light and held enough

destructive force to knock someone unconscious."
 
GreatestSin said:
i think this is a good thread to ask:
why are saints rated as hypersonic/HS+ or high hypersonic? (this is mach 20 or higher)

i can understand it if it is reaction time but the novel uses "around the speed of sound" for the upper-regions of a saints movement speed and this several times :I
Click to expand...

The light novel actually uses mostly Supersonic or faster than the speed of sound to describe their movement speed, which could mean any amount of faster actually. They are scaled of Mjölnir, who is for one thing a normal magician and for the other thing was fought by Kanzaki.


@Gabriel 00: even hundreds of supercomputers couldn't calculate fast enough to refelect light actually. Basically his ability activates like 1 cm over his skin, but the electric circuits to calculate something are longer than that, so the computer parts would need to some FTL things going on. So that isn't a good reasoning. It is c in base 2c in pre-headshot + angel, for more we just not have solid reasoning.
 
@DontTalk: what i'm trying to say is that he acts like a calculator, if he can calc fast enough he can reflect. for example: for him to reflect light 299792458 x -1 or (speed) x -1, if exceeds his capacity he can't deflect like a trillion digit number
 
@aizen and @donttalk

but kamachi mentions sonic boom and "slightly above speed of sound",

yeah, it gets inconsistent but this shouldnt change explicity stated stats, he even made a attempt to limit her speed in kanzaki SS,

afterall kanzaki is not able to react to a moving bullet (that means she isnt faster than mach 5 at most, it wasnt specified what gun, i assume mach 5 belongs to fastest types) but she can dodge if she reacts to the small light caused by the explosion in the gun,

i think this was said by the shop-owner who travelled with kanzaki, he and another girl stayed in the car while kanzaki attacked a ship (which was the last "fight" right before brunhild showed up)...

all that should limit her speed to supersonic+ at best :(
 
if they were supersonic, Gunha wouldn't be able to punch lightning into the ground.

I don't know why you're deciding that "supersonic" is consistent, theres more than one quote of Misaka or her clones having lightspeed lightning. it's clearly just describing it as very fast moving.

also, Feats>Statements, and we have plenty of feats way above supersonic.
 
^gunha reacted to lightning, he never showed to be able to move faster than it...

im not saying suprsonic is inconsistet but that kamachis explanation is making the feats to statements inconsistent...

still, if kamachi was really using a "hyperbole" like you suggest than he wouldnt have given the example with the gun, different than the stuff like "accelerators all-over-the-world-scream in vol.15" an more i always saw kamachi being rather insistent in using "around mach 1" as top-speed for saints/valkyrie...
 
he reacted, and punched it into the ground. which is a close combat feat also. you just said kanzaki could not react to a bullet,easily anyway. So she would be roughly 300 times slower in reactions and close combat than Gunha, and he could effortlessly stomp all saints described as supersonic then.

also sigh.. you want speed feats? you have Mjolnir, you also have Accelerator moving to intercept Fiamma's attack at mach 20 something, and Accelerator again flying kilometres into the sky against touma also.

So tell me, what makes you think Lightspeed lightning is inconsistent, and Supersonic characters aren't?
 
And if he didn't want to have characters move that fast he wouldn't have literally wrote that Mjölnir moved over 125 km in 10 seconds.

And not like most other verses don't have inconsistencys (like for example every other verse where characters use guns), or as if there aren't other calcs that put to aru characters above supersonic.
 
@LazyHunter: If you keep making profiles that fast you will soon have created more To Aru profiles than me. Amazing ^^
 
@aizen

at most he reacted to lightning like touma did and than "punched it down", yeah, he moved his arms but this is it, the side story that gave gunha mach 2 movement speed never said how fast he is if he simply needs to move his arms, that means he can very well be mach 2 movement speed and still have a incrdible high close-combat speed with fitting reaction :I

im not the one who made the example, the author did, it is explicity said by a char who fought alongside kanzaki for a long time so it cant be disrgraded simply as "character statement", kamachi was serious by giving them this speed(maybe he forgot later but we dont know), other stuff can often be excused by his overusage of hyperboles, that also includes the "lightspeed lightning" :)

you want speed feats? you have Mjolnir, you also have Accelerator moving to intercept Fiamma's attack at mach 20 something, and Accelerator again flying kilometres into the sky against touma also

i never wanted speed feats =I and i dont get the example with myölnir etc.

So tell me, what makes you think Lightspeed lightning is inconsistent, and Supersonic characters aren't?

i never said either one is inconsistent, i said that kamachis explanation (or better: way of writing) makes the feats to statements inconsistent...

@donttalk

i dont know what kamachi wants but i can surely say that he uses a lot of hyperboles if he describes action-scenes, but if he uses explicit numbers (or gives "out of his way"-examples for char limits (like in kanzaki SS with the saint vs gun)) than it is mostlikely a literal description, if he gave mjönir 125 km in 10 seconds movement speed than she is that fast...

i never said other verses arent inconsistent, but if it is stated and made clear that it isnt a hyperbole than it should be taken as "the real thing" even if other feats dont really fit...
 
@GreatestSin Well, I'm not sure how to change your MindSet, but it is how it is, and the speed stats are fine as they are

on a different Note building on what ^^DontTalk Said, the profiles have certainly come a long way since a few months ago, Lazy's been a great help!
 
@DontTalk and LordAizensama

It's not really that impressive, most of them were easy to do since the Saint level magicians scale to each other and the street level characters don't involve a lot of thinking about stats, mainly their equipment and skills.

@GreatestSin

Once again using the poor excuse of hyperboles to dismiss actual feats (an hyperbole would be the narration describing Mikoto's lightning as lightspeed), but instantly accepting a minor character in a side story's word as the absolute truth despite the series having better feats elsewhere. I'll try to find the part you're talking about, just to see the "clear statement/feat obviously made by Kamachi going out of his way to limit Kanzaki's speed" you're talking about.

So it's in Norse Mythology SS, Chapter 1 Part 7:

"Oh, I see," the shop owner replied halfheartedly. "Then do you know that Kanzaki can see a handgun bullet coming for her and dodge it?"

"...What?"

"The same with lightning." The shop owner sighed. "When you fire a handgun, the sparks of the muzzle flash fly from the barrel. The speed of light and the speed of the bullet are not the same. The bullet will always arrive after the light. Due to this, Kanzaki can move her head to the side after seeing the light from the barrel and dodge the coming bullet.

Just as he was making that perhaps exaggerated boast, about half of the soccer stadium in front of him suddenly crumbled.

"Saints are people who can move at the speed of sound and slice a bomber in two," he said sounding bored "I'm not sure we should count monsters like that as humans, much less girls."

First, it's not even an actual feat. Second, it's obvious Kamachi wasn't going out of his way to reduce a Saint's speed nor it was a clear "Kanzaki can't dodge a bullet without doing this". It was a statement made by a minor non-fighter character in response to another one questioning why were they leaving Kanzaki to fight a magic cabal on her own, with the Jeans Shop Owner (who hasn't fought alongside Kanzaki for a long time, he's a support magician, not a frontline one like her or Stiyl) dismissing the idea of being of any help and the thought of normal magicians being a serious threat to Kanzaki as ridiculous, thus giving an example as to how powerful Saints can be, but never stating anything about that being their limit. And like we have told you, Kamachi's way to describe speed is not consistent and centers in repeating the expressions supersonic, faster than sound or as fast as sound despite characters having much better feats, probably because he thinks it sounds cool. He's a writer first, so his only concern is writing a compelling and entertaining story, not making sure all the feats from his characters stay balanced.

Just for fun, other lines in the same novel that debunk your claim of Kanzaki not being able to react to a bullet itself or Saints/Valkyries only being around Mach 1 in movement speed. Notice how even in the same novel the descriptions of super speed do not remain consistent.

That was not enough. Kanzaki swung her head to the side just slightly. She was one of the fewer than 20 Saints in the world. No matter how strong and detailed a spiritual item he held and no matter how complex a spell he put together, it would not work on her. She could see a fired bullet and then evade it, so she could not be stopped by handcuffs or shackles.

"You fool. How am I supposed to have proper romantic feelings for a monster that can see a bullet fired from a handgun and evade it?"

Kanzaki lowered her hips slightly and then chased after the magician as quickly as a bullet.

This applies also to Gunha. It's even easier to debunk your claim since Kamachi has described his fist as reaching the speed of sound, which would also be lower than the time he was describing as moving at Mach 2. But even then is easy to explain how he could have displayed better speed feats: Gunha is playing to be a superhero like 99% of the time and not taking things seriously is his modus operandi (he was stabbed and shot by normal bullies that one time while he was trying to talk to them, does this suddenly mean he's slower than normal humans?), the only times we have seen him actually serious was against Ollerus when he talked down guts in front of him and at the end of the fight with Level 6 Shift Mikoto.

So again, I fail to see why a character being described as supersonic or faster than sound means that Mach 1 is their limit when we have better feats and the author is known for using "supersonic" and "faster than sound" to describe any speed superior to sound's almost every single time. Or why would we use the lowest feat as the limit of a character when they have better ones and the lowest feat isn't actually described or stated to be their limit. Or why it is so hard for you to understand than faster than sound and supersonic can be used to talk about people that are faster than sound, no matter by how much. Light is faster than sound. The same happens with characters described as moving faster than light, in fiction the expression is used for character who are only a bit faster than light and for ones that reach "now we're getting ridiculous" levels of FTL movement.
 
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