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BIG Fate Extra additions (mainly Extella) + upgrade for the tier 2.

QuasiYuri

QuasiYuri

They/Them
VS Battles
Retired
6,605
4,155
Sorry for the bad grammar.

Upgrade for the tier 2
Let's start with the upgrade: currently the Moon Cell is considered as low 2-C, however it can goes to 2-C or 2-B.

We all know that the Moon Cell is kind of supposed to observe and "stock" parallel worlds inside of it right? Now we know it exist a huge number of them, expanding indefinitely.

And the Moon Cell contains them litteraly, Velber also took some. In case you're wondering if they're litteral alternate worlds, Extella games have shown to have at very least more than 20 parallel worlds (each route is revealed to be one of them).

So it would make everyone at High 3-A/Low 2-C upgrade to 2-C or 2-B.

"Possibly higher" upgrade
This time it's for Venus Nero, In the final fight she connected to a "higher plane" to receive the power of Gods (more especially Venus), with her becoming "a covergence of mana from a higher plane".

Depending of how high the plane of God is, it can give a pretty good tier to Venus Nero (if it's beyond Avalon), even without it being concrete, it looks good enough to qualify as "possibly higher" on her page.

The Regalia
Despite the Regalia being very powerful, none of its abilities are on the pages of its possessors.

Most of it is for the Incomplete Regalia, which apply to Altera, Nero, and Tamamo. The complete one only apply to Nero and Hakuno however, I'll precise when it's the last case.

Statistics Amplifications: Tamamo was able to boost her speed with the Regalia

Mind and Soul Manipulation: Is able to reunite the mind and soul of someone (it's also the reason of why Hakuno mind, soul, and body were separated to begin with).

Clairvoyance (?): Allows the user to see all of SE.RA.PH.

Creation: Can create a digital decoy.

Barrier Creation: Can errect a barrier.

Wish Granting: Stated to be a sort of portable version of the Holy Grail.

Power Bestowal: Nero bestowed herself the Presence Concealment skill with it.

Power Modification: Using the Regalia, Altera was able to redefine the servant-master stuff.

Memory Manipulation: Hakuno projected their memory into their alternate self (Altera route - Golden Poem).

Likely all of the authority/all of the powers of the Moon Cell [Complete]: Can do "miracles", which is another name for Authority and is stated to be like "holding the Moon Cell in your hand", so it should give every abilities that BB gained from merging with the Moon Cell.

Altera
I'll precise when it's the titan for with [Titan].

Space manipulation or EE for her casual attacks: Can shave pieces of existence with her regular attacks.

Conceptual Manipulation (?): The Sword of Mars is stated to have the concept of cutting.

Creation [Titan]: Recreated money, cage, and some others stuff.

Healing [Titan]: Can heal with her cage or via simple touch.

Another kiind of Size Manipulation: Can make others being growth to titanic size.

Life/Age Manipulation: Distorting their life force shortens their lifespan.

Multiple Personnalities (?): Titan - Servant Altera.

Shapeshifting: This.

Nero Claudius
Resistance to Space Manipulation or EE: Can tank Altera's regular attacks.

Power Nullification (?) [Venus Nero]: "Severed" the link between Altera and Velber.

Space Manipulation [Venus Nero]: It also produced a huge level of dimensionnal magic.

Tamamo no Mae
Luck/Probabilty Manipulation: Can guide luck when etablishing connection with a certain negative energy.

Power Bestowal (?): She can also remove others' mana limit with her NP.

Resurrection (the one she has is for Amaterasu): Resurrected Jeanne.

Resistance to Space Manipulation or EE: Can tank Altera's regular attacks.

Archimedes
Resistance to Space Manipulation or EE: Can tank Altera's regular attacks.

Fate Manipulation: Can cast Time Lock, which make an event impossible to change past a certain point.

Hacking (?): "Hacked" Altera.

Space Manipulation and Attack Reflection:Set a multi-dimensionnal barrier to reflect Venus Nero's attack.

Sleep Manipulation (?): He has a sedation thing.

Interdimensionnal travel: Can do "time slip" which allow him to go to others timelines.

Elizabeth Bathory
First, Elizabeth should have a "Corroded Elizabeth" key, the form after she ate the Regalia, in term of stats it should just scale to the Regalia Users (more their Moon Crux form).

Better Resistance to Mind Control: Karl's "assimilation" (which is basically high level mind control) didn't worked on her (not totally), while it worked on people like Scatatch or Karna.

Life Absorption: Bloody Iron Maiden.Also wanted to absorb Altera's lifeforce.


Absorption [Corroded]: Ate the Regalia, gaining power from it.


Likely all of the Regalia's power [Corroded]: Absorbed it + can even manipulate the Zero Dark, a part of the Moon Cell that Hakuno, the original possessor, couldn't.


Existence Erasure [Corroded]: Erased Archimedes.

Iskandar the Great
Resistance to Space Manipulation or EE: Can tank Altera's regular attacks.

Summoning even without Ionoi Heitaroi: His active skills do this. Also do it during the game.

Stats Amplification: The more he conquers, the more powerful he becomes.

Gilles de Rais
Stats Amplification: Can boost others.

Stats reduction: Can slow others with Festival of the Foul God.

Mind Manipulation: Can create a field of mental corruption.

Better Resistance to Mind Control: Karl's "assimilation" (which is basically high level mind control) didn't worked on him at all (not totally), while it worked on people like Scatatch or Karna. (I don't have the scan right now, but it's near the end of the story mode)

Astolfo
Possibly Self-Sustenance (type 1): Litteraly went on the Moon before being a servant without any problem.

Dimensionnal Travel with the Hippogriff: Why didn't he already has this?

Jeanne d'Arc and Gilgamesh
Resistance to Space Manipulation or EE: Can tank Altera's regular attacks.

Conclusion
-Everyone High 3-A/Low 2-C because of the Moon Cell now becomes 2-C or 2-B, with Venus Nero gaining a "possibly higher".

-Everyone who canonically fought Altera gains Resistance to Space Manipulation or Existence Erasure

-Everyone who possessed the Regalia should have his abilities on their page.

-Elizabeth gets a "Corroded" key.

-And the rest should just have the additions added on their respective page.
 
Following. Gonna wait for the experts to come in. Although I'm unsure on the higher plane stuff, but that would imply higher dimensional tiering, but its too vague.
 
If it's a higher-plane than 4-D... It's 5-D. But it isn't specific enough to really note anything other than a "possibly Higher"

Otherwise.. It's possible for the tier 2 stuff... But I'm neutral for now.
 
I don't have time to respond at length atm, but I'll be brief. I think that they would be 2-C or 2-B hax wise, not raw AP wise, but if it were to get added to the AP section then it would merely be possibly as opposed to an absolute thing.

As for the other stuff, it looks fine by skimming it. If miracle are truly authority then Martha should gain limited authority of her own
 
"Higher plane" is not specific enough, which is a shame.

2-C/2-B can be discussed. I believe that the Moon Cell stores timelines in Universe of Record domain.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
If it's only 20, it would be slightly above baseline 2-C.
Click to expand...
The 20 I talk about is only the ones you are playing in. The total amount is way higher according to what it's said.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
I don't have time to respond at length atm, but I'll be brief. I think that they would be 2-C or 2-B hax wise, not raw AP wise, but if it were to get added to the AP section then it would merely be possibly as opposed to an absolute thing.
Click to expand...
It would be 2-C or 2-B for the same reason as the current High 3-A/Low 2-C.
 
It was more considered as an outlier if I remember correctly, but with the tier 2 it should be legit. Also the Moon Cell wasn't confirmed to litteraly contains parallel worlds at the time I think.
 
YuriAkuto said:
Nevermind for the 2-C or 2-B, I re-found scans for 2-A.
Click to expand...
Iirc there is also a 2-A feat at the end of Last Encore. Although, I again say that this should be more of a hax feat rather than something that would scale to AP. Authority and the like would scale in potency of hax, but busting the moon cell or being a threat to it would not yield 2-A hax.
 
Just found a thread where he was against it, it was the same one where he was against Low 2-C, so it can at least being reconsider a little, with all the previous revisions.
 
Infinitely expanding and infinite are, like I said before, NOT the same. And that's what the alternate worlds in Fate are - infinitely expanding then being pruned after a certain amount of time because the amount of energy the universe has is FINITE, and if they just kept multiplying, reality wouldn't have enough energy to last a century. 2-A is a definite no.

I am also against 2-C at all. The Moon Cell is a super computer, it scans the Earth every nanosecond or something like that, it stores "information", not literal realities. It can affect reality but, as I've kept saying, what the Moon Cell replicates inside itself using spiritrons and the extent to which it can affect reality is not the same. There's no timeline literally stored, there's records on a computer that got wrecked when a mean, annoying alien came and ****** it up the manual way. Velber destroys civilizations, it has no reason and need to "take timelines".

The higher plane thing has already been brought up before. An incarnated soul using Third Magic is higher dimensional, the gods after becoming Divine Spirits by growing weaker also go to a "higher dimension" and can't interact with humanity. There's not much to fundament that Nero is literally higher dimensional in the sense we use here, otherwise we would need to make a Lugh Beowulf profile from Mahojo and give him Tier 2, as he's exactly what would happen with a soul incarnated by Third Magic, or close.

The addition of abilities I'll look over but it seems mostly alright.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I am also against 2-C at all. The Moon Cell is a super computer, it scans the Earth every nanosecond or something like that, it stores "information", not literal realities. It can affect reality but, as I've kept saying, what the Moon Cell replicates inside itself using spiritrons and the extent to which it can affect reality is not the same. There's no timeline literally stored, there's records on a computer that got wrecked when a mean, annoying alien came and ****** it up the manual way. Velber destroys civilizations, it has no reason and need to "take timelines".
Click to expand...
Alternate timelines are shown to litteraly exist in it, it's part of Extella's plot.
 
"Moon Cell is a computer"

"it's not real"

Like I'm watching a comment on r/whowouldwin. Of course the stuff inside the Moon Cell is real.
 
Yes, Alternate timelines have existed since ever.

Do you also remember what the Moon Cell is? A massive computer that replicates the outside world and the souls of heroes in it's artificial inner world based on information it has scanned.

Information it has also scanned on potential timelines. That's literally how it works.
 
Yeah, it exactly replicates stuff in a litteral way. I don't see how it goes against 2-C/2-B.
 
It's an artificial world you can't enter except by hacking in or through your soul, not physically at all.

I don't care how you wanna put it, it literally analyses things and keeps the data in it's databank. Even if we go with "all of the inside is real", are you gonna equate data it has stored with it literally physically existing instead of being just that, data? Do the heroic spirits also exist until they are summoned because they are recorded in there? Is planet Earth hiding somewhere just because it's data is recorded there?

I am sure it's not. The artificial world of the moon cell it's not made up of everything it has analyzed. There's no multiple timelines exisiting in it at once, unless you have actual proof of this.
 
Hakuno litteraly was in the Moon Cell as his body, his mind, and his soul. So no, it's not just through your soul.

Heroic Spirit exist without being summoned in the first way.

Proof of multiple timelines? Litteraly the plot of Extella.
 
You are losing taste? I am here reading arguments like: "...there's records on a computer that got wrecked when a mean, annoying alien came and ****** it up the manual way.."

Nobody is really forcing you to be here if you don't want to.
 
His mind that has a body, his body that has a body and his soul that has a body. Not to mention you are using Hakuno as an example, the dude that only exists in the Moon Cell because his real body is dead. Care to find me something to reture Extra where the Moon Cell can't be accessed physically?

Am I talking chinese, maybe? I literally said we've known about multiple timelines since forever, I told you to prove the Moon Cell, a computer that analyzes and stores data on things, literally has space time timelines inside of it instead of replicating them, of which it has never been shown replicating multiple of at once.

"Heroic Spirit exist without being summoned in the first way."

This is getting dumber.
 
ThisIsMySwagPack said:
You are losing taste? I am here reading arguments like: "...there's records on a computer that got wrecked when a mean, annoying alien came and ****** it up the manual way.."
Nobody is really forcing you to be here if you don't want to.
Click to expand...
I kinda have to, when I see such convenient interpretation of information. I also like the idea of accuracy.
 
Multiples timelines in the moon cell is again the plot of Extella. Archimedes litteraly **** with this all the time. Hakuno from Altera's timeline litteraly send his memory to his Golden Poem's timeline version.

So you don't know that Heroic Spirit exist without being summoned? When they aren't, they returns to the Throne of Heroes.
 
Such convenience goes both ways. And I doubt your perspective of accuracy.

" 'Universe' refers to a domain that encompasses space and time. In the world of Fate/Extra CCC and Fate/Extella, two varieties of existence are referred to as 'Universe'."

" 'Universe of Record' refers to a domain of reality wherein the Concept of Time is expressed as 'Time Submitted to Record' such that the Past, Present and Future can be distinguished as categorically discrete entities per a chronological record of proceedings. The timelines represented within the Adjacent World Simulator of the Moon Cell Automaton may be collectively considered a 'Universe of Record'."

As far as I understand this quote, it says there are timelines stored.
 
I am starting to doubt even more the veracity of this with this knowledge. No, Heroic Spirits never leave the throne - a copy is made of them that feeds information back to the original, there's even a graph for it. The whole infinity and growing infinitely thing was also outright wrong.

He doesn't send his memories to a timeline, he CREATES a timeline by sending his memories back in time, which makes that Hakuno act diferently for obvious reasons. And it would be easier to think Archimedes is moving between the Moon Cells of different timelines, as there's not only one Moon Cell, and Archimedes wants Velber to destroy THE EARTH. That thing that is outside the Moon Cell and for which time keeps moving forward towards the Quantum Timelock that Archimedes is trying to evade so that the destruction of the Moon Cell remains an irrefutable and unchangeable fact, and for which said Timelock never arrives despite how many times Archimedes slips into a new world.
 
ThisIsMySwagPack said:
Such convenience goes both ways. And I doubt your perspective of accuracy.
" 'Universe' refers to a domain that encompasses space and time. In the world of Fate/Extra CCC and Fate/Extella, two varieties of existence are referred to as 'Universe'."

" 'Universe of Record' refers to a domain of reality wherein the Concept of Time is expressed as 'Time Submitted to Record' such that the Past, Present and Future can be distinguished as categorically discrete entities per a chronological record of proceedings. The timelines represented within the Adjacent World Simulator of the Moon Cell Automaton may be collectively considered a 'Universe of Record'."

As far as I understand this quote, it says there are timelines stored.
Click to expand...
As far as I personally understood it, they are indeed just records until the "Adjacent World Simulator" of the Moon Cell actually manifests them, and at no point are multiple of them manifested at once. I'd have to play the game again to see if it happens at some point and I missed it.
 
About Karl's Assimilation:

  • It's closer to Corruption that to Mind Control, as it's specifically stated that, unlike Mind-Control, Assimilation doesn't affect the target's personality and desires, but just makes them view Karl as their supreme leader.
  • The Resistance thing isn't actually based on ability, but on the target's emotions: I don't remember exactly what allowed Elizbeth to resists, but she never managed to fully do it, and you still had to fight her to get rid of Karl's Assimilation. As for Gilles, he didn't resist every time, only in one route of the whole thing they actually mention how he wasn't assimilated (because of his view of God and will or something). In the other routes, you can clearly see that he's surrounded by the same purple aura as tother Assimilated Servants.
  • Also, Jeanne, who has a Ruler has a natural resistance to corruption, couldn't resist it.
And about the additions themselves, I'm surprised you didn't add stuff like Status Effect Inducement, Paralysis Inducement, Statistics Amplification andReduction, Elemental Manipulation, etcetera.
 
DMB 1 said:
About Karl's Assimilation:
  • The Resistance thing isn't actually based on ability, but on the target's emotions: I don't remember exactly what allowed Elizbeth to resists, but she never managed to fully do it, and you still had to fight her to get rid of Karl's Assimilation. As for Gilles, he didn't resist every time, only in one route of the whole thing they actually mention how he wasn't assimilated (because of his view of God and will or something). In the other routes, you can clearly see that he's surrounded by the same purple aura as tother Assimilated Servants.
And about the additions themselves, I'm surprised you didn't add stuff like Status Effect Inducement, Paralysis Inducement, Statistics Amplification andReduction, Elemental Manipulation, etcetera.
Click to expand...
Elizabeth has a "mental super armor" and Gilles has a resistance to mental stuff. Even if both said it was because of "popularity and my fans" or "my love". I don't remember Gilles having a purple aura at any moment however.

I only used the screens I took, so I don't have everything yeah.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
He doesn't send his memories to a timeline, he CREATES a timeline by sending his memories back in time, which makes that Hakuno act diferently for obvious reasons. And it would be easier to think Archimedes is moving between the Moon Cells of different timelines, as there's not only one Moon Cell, and Archimedes wants Velber to destroy THE EARTH. That thing that is outside the Moon Cell and for which time keeps moving forward towards the Quantum Timelock that Archimedes is trying to evade so that the destruction of the Moon Cell remains an irrefutable and unchangeable fact, and for which said Timelock never arrives despite how many times Archimedes slips into a new world.
Click to expand...
Never stated to create a timeline. Not to mention y'know, it's not even the past. Since this Hakuno was the one with Altera while the one who receives the memories was the one with Nero.

Nothing stated Archimedes moving between multiples Moon Cells, it's clearly stated to be between timeline.
 
I'll have to re-play the stages.

Oh, and about the moon thing, did Astolfo go to the actual moo or Ariosto's depiction of the moon in the Nasuverse? Because yes, those are indeed different things.

Maybe I'll bring up the other additions again later.
 
And it was also never stated "he sent his memories to the Hakuno of this game path." You have read about divergent worlds, right? Only the worlds that can branch off into new ones from the actions of someone aren't culled. So yes, someone's actions if impactful enough can branch a world in another direction. This is no different from Meltlilith moving at the speed of light to go back in time and change what happens in FGO's Extra event despite it killing her, which changes the course of history. And which Hakuno it was matters even less, I never said he sent it to himself in the past. Just that he sent them to the past.

Aha... Are you listening to yourself? Do you know that there's an entire universe outside the moon cell, and that universe also has timelines, and in those timelines there would be other moon cells? The timelines inside the Moon Cell and the timelines of the actual universe the Moon Cell is in are not related at all. Even if Archimedes keeps moving to the past of a new timeline, the universe itself keeps ticking forward closer to the Quantum Timelock. Yet this isn't how it's presented, as he's been doing this a lot and seems confident he can win as long as he can find the one timeline where he can succeed, and the Timelock is not any closer. Not to mention, if this was all inside one sole moon cell... Why does he need to slip between worlds? There's a Hakuno and a Nero and an Altera and an everybody else in each one of these worlds, there should be an Archimedes in each of them as well. So is there only a single technician invoked by the moon cell despite there being multiple Top Heroes in each timeline to stop Altera? Makes no sense.
 
In another scan where I saw that, it said the same except it would destroy them all. Different subs I guess.

But yeah wow, seems pretty blatant but I don't want to open a can of worms so I'll see what the rest wanna say.
 
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