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Dragon Ball Super Cosmology

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That's arrogant. As far as I am aware, we are still on the page that the Dragon Ball cosmology is 2-C with universes having separate spacetimes. Before making claims that Zeno can't destroy more than one timeline, wait for people to actually agree on whether or not the universes are separate spacetimes.
 
That the first thing ^.

Shadow, you're the one arguing that things are different than what is currently accepted, so YOU prove all your points. You're the one making the claim to change things as they are. Especially when you're making the assumption that Zamasu would become stronger than the established absolute god tier of the verse, who no one should ever be stronger than. YOU MADE THAT CLAIM. The burden of proof lies on you.

And lastly, no. He merged with the space-time of the entire multiverse if the downgrade stands, and him forcing his way into ANOTHER timeline is a 2-C feat, or at least an attempt at one. He's low 2-C no matter what via being a part of the space-time of the universe itself. A 4D being.
 
This baseless argument is foolish anyhow. This thread is regarding whether or not each universe has its own spacetime. This thread has absolutely zero relation or connection to scaling characters. Trying to claim Zeno isn't 2-C or that Infinite Zamasu would have 'matched Zeno' is utterly absurd and has no basis. This thread is about building or destroying the basis for any such claims.

So before raising arguments, wait for the thread to dictate the basis.
 
No, it is up to YOU to prove that Zeno can destroy more than one timeline when what's shown points to the contrary (there's a Zeno per timeline, Zeno refers to all of existence as the 12 universes).

It's the same reason Jiren isn't 2-C, there's no indication of him being stronger than a fully realized Infinite Zamasu as that never happened in the show, just the (for now) Low 2-C version.
 
Again, the point of this thread is to decide whether or not the universes share a spacetime. Zeno has destroyed six universes on a whim, as outright stated by Beerus and Whis. Zeno is conclusively 2-C if each universe has its own spacetime.

Please, return to the actual topic of discussion and debate whether these universes have a separate spacetime. As I already said, you are arguing with a basis that has not even been established.
 
I'm standing by the claim that Zeno will be stronger than Zamasu no matter what, going by everything in the verse. Anything Zamasu could have become seems to be meaningless in the face of Zeno, and there's nothing to explicitly suggest that Zeno was going to be weaker than Zamasu.

Nothing. At all. Jiren not being stronger than a fully realized Zamasu is not the same as Zeno. Zeno is objectively the strongest thing and cannot be beaten by anyone in the verse, no. The Franchise. We have no reason at all to believe that Zamasu could surpass him in power. You're making that claim with no evidence.
 
@Amexim If a fully realized Infinite Zamasu can do something that is beyond the capabilities that Zeno has demonstrated then yes, I do have evidence to say that he surpassed him in power.
 
He merged with the space time that universe 7 is a part of, and THEN was going to the past timeline as well to do the same thing. At worst, he merged with the 4D space of one universe, and was about to do more 2-C shit due to traveling to a whole other timeline.

It's headcanon that Infinite Zamasu at Max potential is superior to Zeno.
 
So, what you're saying is that you're going to assume that Infinite Zamasu, who even Beerus thought was fodder, wouid grow to be stronger than Zeno? Ok.
 
@Amexim Again, you have no evidence that he merged with any of the other universes.

Beerus thought Zamasu was fodder because he didn't become 2-C in the actual show.
 
And what's crazy is that Zeno nuked everything. If Zamasu didn't merge with the timeline of the multiverse, and just the universe 7's space, why nuke the rest of the universes? Likely because Zanasu was infecting the whole quilt. Makes sense considering he was starting to travel to a whole other timeline, which, in and of itself, is at least low 2-C if not 2-C.
 
Shadow, you have no evidence to suggest Zeno wouid he weaker than Zamasu. End of it.
 
Not only that, but you don't even understand that universes are 4D spacial constructs in and of themselves, and merging with just 1 universe is already low 2-C anyway.

Assuming all 12 universes share a timeline, and Zamasu merged with the portion of the space time that belonged to universe 7, which, is connected to the rest of the universe's by the timeline they share, Zamasu effectively became part of the multiverse itself. Doesn't have to be one with all of the universes, never said that either.
 
@Amexim I don't have to prove that Zeno is weaker than Zamasu, you have to prove Zeno can destroy more than one timeline.

Yeah and this is a thread questioning the validity of the universes in Dragon Ball being separate 4D constructs in the first place.
 
Talk about trigger happy but you're so quick to jump the gun on what the verse says is objectively the most unbeatable being in the franchise being beaten by fodder.
 
You do have to prove Zeno is weaker than Zamasu. You're claiming that Zamasu is stronger than Zeno.

And there's a difference between 4D universes and universes with separate timelines. 4D universes have 4D space. They can all share a timeline and still have separate 4D spaces from the others. This goes with the fact that you can't normally physically travel from one universe to another without some teleportation or special device as the angels.
 
Zeno's highest count for destroyed universes, before erasing the future, was erasing six universes for an unknown reason. Implying Zeno would erase ALL universes for no reason is pure headcanon.

Seriously, Shadow. Go take a rest. I think you are being blinded right now by something external to this thread. I doubt you are this unreasonable normally.
 
"A world like this must disappear". This was said by Zeno Sama right before he erased Zamasu. Mind you Goku never said erase the universe or multiverse (Zeno wasn't even told Zamasu fused with anything) he only said erase Zamasu. If it takes multiversal destruction to get rid of Zamasu and Zeno said a world like _this_ must be destroyed, then it means that Zamasu already became one with the multiverse and it couldn't be saved anymore. Why does no one see this?
 
^ What I am saying. Though, i'm Talking about him becoming one with the greater "quilt" rather than being a part of all of the individual universal spaces.

All of the universes are clearly separated by space. They do not share a spatial dimension together that can be physically traversed, as shown by the bubbles they exist in, as shown by the methods used to travel to them, and the afterlives of each universe work the same way. They share the same timeline, but not the same space. The separation between universes is similar, but on a greater scale, and the afterlives are a part of the same universe. These other universes are separate spaces. Not space times, but still separate spaces. I was taught by Ultima that you can have 4D space and it effectively doesn't necessarily have to do with time travel, read the 2-C vs 2-A thread to see what I meant. But either way, I argue that they have separate 4D spaces but not timelines due to them being impossible to physically traverse, them being infinite in size, and them so far matching our universe in terms of structure sans the quilted multiverse.
 
@Amexim Because feats > statements.

You can't physically travel between the mortal universe and the Kaioshin Realm or the Afterlife but they aren't separate universes. That isn't an argument.
 
As you can see, that's because they're the same universe. These other universes are not the same universe.

And by that logic, plenty of verses need to have featless god tiers downgraded to below human level, because if we never saw someone do ANYTHING, they must be weaker than someone who has done something, context and logic and sound inferences be damned.
 
As a matter of fact, shouldn't cell be only dwarf star level, given he didn't actually destroy the solar system and that the context surrounding statements mean nothing for their viability. Oh, and **** 3-A dragon Ball. Those were statements that never actually turned into feats. What verses do you like, Shadow, i'm sure that all their statements are worthless too.
 
Like, Zamasu isn't even special like Goku or Jiren or Broly. He was arguably weaker than Goku in SSG— if not comparable in power, fine. Do you know how difficult it was for Goku to even come close to scraping Beerus in power? And the gap between Beerus and the Angels are twice as wide. And then there's the gap between the Angels and the Grand Priest/Zeno that's even bigger than that. And you're telling me that Zamasu, who couldn't even one shot a tired Goku, is going to climb that massive ladder of power so high— with context like this— was going to become STRONGER than Zeno all because Zamasu was doing something Zeno didn't ever show the need to do? That one thing trumps every idea of what the verse has established about Zeno in your mind, to the point where you think it's reasonable to discard the idea that Zeno is unbearable, when the Franchise as a whole, canon and non-canon material, disagrees? They call him omnipotent in the card games for ***** sake.
 
Cell states he can destroy the solar system, guidebook statements say it, and he actually does do it in a game.

Beerus and Goku were destroying the universe in their fight.

So they called Zeno omnipotent, why not push him all the way to tier 0 then? Who cares if he doesn't have any feats or viable statements putting him that high?
 
At this point, it should be better if we close this and wait sera's version, the current discussion has nothing to do with OP's request.
 
Sera constantly said to disregard the cosmology debate as it's too early and we don't have the resources to debate it right now. She just came back from hiatus and the last thing she wants is to get into a heated argument, you know...the very same heated arguments that made her take such a long break in the first place.

So please, turn the passion dial down some, it's not the serious.
 
Frustration stems from the opposition taking highly illogical and obtuse stances on a fiction that they clearly have no actual interest in. I agree this thread is pointless, as Sera needs to compile their own argument first.
 
But the thing is we can't disregard the cosmology debate.

In order to get Beerus, Champa and Gogetas tiers in check we need to deal with the cosmology first as it effects whether or not 2-C anyone besides Zen'o is even possible.

If we accept the universes as seperate space-times, then Beerus and Champas combined feat is undoubtedly 2-C. But if the universes are not seperate space-times after all, then the feat is 3-A. Some argue its 2-C in favor of the upgrade and others argue its 3-A being against the upgrade. And right now its at a standstill.

So we have to address the cosmology in itself first before we get to dealing with the GoDs and Gogeta.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
But the thing is we can't disregard the cosmology debate.
In order to get Beerus, Champa and Gogetas tiers in check we need to deal with the cosmology first as it effects whether or not 2-C anyone besides Zen'o is even possible.

If we accept the universes as seperate space-times, then Beerus and Champas combined feat is undoubtedly 2-C. But if the universes are not seperate space-times after all, then the feat is 3-A. Some argue its 2-C in favor of the upgrade and others argue its 3-A being against the upgrade. And right now its at a standstill.

So we have to address the cosmology in itself first before we get to dealing with the GoDs and Gogeta.
Click to expand...
What can the Opposition say what has not been said on this thread?

Why_the_DB_Multiverse_DOES_NOT_share_the_same_space-time

The only thing missing there is the WoV
 
To be fair, a 2 year long blog isn't 100% absolute if new stuff comes to contradict it.

That said, I'm impartial and neutral about it. I'm just saying we need to deal with the Cosmology first before the statistics of the GoDs and Gogeta.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
To be fair, a 2 year long blog isn't 100% absolute if new stuff comes to contradict it.
That said, I'm impartial and neutral about it. I'm just saying we need to deal with the Cosmology first before the statistics of the GoDs and Gogeta.
Click to expand...
As far I am aware no new guides has come out in 2018/2019 explaining the cosmology of DB.
 
It's not highly illogical or obtuse, and to suggest we have no real interest in it, when they were the ones who made DBS Tier 3 and 2 in the first place is absurd.

Also, I have an argument, I always do. I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't. It's a very lengthy one at that, but I'm not in the mood to sit here for however long it takes to debate this to argue with, let's say "passionate vs debaters" (keep in mind I didn't say Dragon Ball fans).

It's literally not worth it. I could not care in the slightest if Dragon Ball's cosmology gets downgraded or not, it's not worth more anxiety and health issues. What I won't tolerate is 2-C anyone but Zeno'o, to which I gave plenty of reasons why already.
 
What can the Opposition say what has not been said on this thread?

That the English dub uses terminology not used in the original Japanese script which creates even further confusion.

That the manga is now considered the primary canon.

That the extended Dragon Ball canon is likely all one big cosmology (I am well aware of the power-scaling issues this could create).

I could go on.
 
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