Altair Downgrade...

So there was a discussion here about the true nature of Altair's Abstract Existence.

Under the current justification for Altair's abilities, Altair is the conceptual embodiement of "The Story Altair" which has no canonicity, constantly being changed and enhanced by different creators adding to her story. With this interpretantion, she's the collective embodiment of all Altairs created by different creators....Lancer's blog on that is here...I reject this interpretation. I think her abstract existence is played up to a ceratin degree.

1) First, the only evidence provided for her being the conceptual embodiment of "The Story Altair" is a character saying "The plot we created the foreshadowing, the characters....they were all no match for Altair..Or the story known as Altair." This could be interpreted several ways, but it certainly isn't by itself enough to say that she is the embodiment of "The Story Of Altair" herself and contains all aspects of every Altair ever created within her.

2) To say that Altair has type 1 Acausality because it is stated that Altair has "No Background" is fallacious. Altair is still bound by linear time (Because there's nothing to suggest that she isn't), the same as anyone else in her verse, using this as an argument to back up that claim is....not correct...the only reason the creators couldn't just change her character description (Her past, which means...she has a past to change..which completely negates the "no background" reasoning.) to make her weaker is because the audience (The other creators) likely wouldn't accept it (Meaning, if the audience did accept it, they could do it), which is more so a resistance to temporal manipulation feat rather than flat out not being affected by temporal attacks (Which is a true type 1 Acasual).

3) "So are you saying that Altair is not a type 4 conceptual?" No. I believe she is a conceptual embodiment...I believe she is the embodiment of the "The idea of Altair" and as seen here she states that her existence is sustained by the creators constantly creating different stories for her. As seen on Lancer's Blog , when a creator creates using their thoughts and imagination, those creations are manifested as different possibilities in alternate timelines. So, I say all of this to say that Altair is indeed a conceptual existence of "The idea of Altair" but she relies on the imagination and thoughts of creators creating alternate Altairs, perpetuating "The idea of Altair".

Also, there is no evidence to suggest that Altair is the collective of every single altair ever made by creators....Which is the current accepted interpretation. This interpretation wouldn't be so bad if Altair had at least displayed memories of the other stories and creators....but she hasn't so there's 0 evidence for it.

4) Now I'll be talking about the weaknesses behind her regen which relies on the the "Idea of Altair" being perpetuated by the creators. What are ways to get around this? Oh...I don't know...possibly busting the universe/world that the creators reside inside of...and since standard battle assumptions and verse equalization should make the humans surrounding the fight be the equivilent of Altair's creators, this would mean if her opponent decides to bust the entire earth, Altair would cease to exist because the idea of Altair would cease to exist.

5) If we haven't seen Altair using an ability without weapons, we shouldn't assume she can. Also, just because we've seen Altair use some abilities without weapons, doesn't mean she can use all of her abilities without the use weapons or objects. There are several abilities which Altair has that have never been used without the use of a weapon or object.

SOME STATEMENTS MADE BY LANCER AND ASSALT:

Assalt ~"None of what you listed is anything we haven't already seen and doesn't indicate reliance or even existence of multiple Altairs."

Lancers blog begs to differ. In the first two sentences he provides proof that creators imagination gives birth to new "worlds" each world being different from one another along with the characters being different (AKA alternate timelines and alternate characters). There is no statement anywhere that says the abstract existence know as Altair is a collective of all of her alternate selves created by different creators (Which is what lancer and you are saying).

Lancer~ "Altair has no Alternate Versions. She IS the collective idea and creation of all the fanfics and Fanarts and fanvideos. This is one of the reasons why she exists as an Abstraction. Burden of proof falls on you to show that she has Alternate Versions because it was never implied that she has Alternate Versions."

That's not how burden of proof works.

TL; DR:

Altair shouldn't have type 1 acausality.

Altair's Abstract Existence is overplayed without proof.

Altair can only use an ability without weapons, that she has been shown to use without weapons.

Altair's regen has a severe weakness considering the fact that creators sustain her existence.


My...first downgrade thread....

Following

"Altair shouldn't have type 1 acausality."

I don't entirely recall if there was any instance of her walking around when time is frozen, unless if you count a separately created dimension/universe.

"Altair's Abstract Existence is overplayed without proof."

I do agreed on this. Altair needs to be a very embodiment of a concept, thought, or information. She can take over one's existence in given conditions, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's straight up an abstract existence.

"Altair can only use an ability without weapons, that she has been shown to use without weapons."

What do you mean by this, specifically?

"Altair's regen has a severe weakness considering the fact that creators sustain her existence."

That could be true unless it's confirmed she's able to have that ability without having her creators present. I even question if she has regen unless the regen part naturally comes from the effect of an hax.


That's how I'm thinking right now about this

1) Altair exists as an idea. She was created by Setsuna but was not fully created as nothing about her was described or given any form or way. She lacked a background and was born without a Universe as Setsuna never created a story but rather a concept art just to show Sota. When Setsuna died, that concept art was never developed and instead used by everyone who have seen her in their own stories and creations effectively using the Idea of Altair. So here "The Story of Altair" isn't "The Embodiment of a Story" but rather "The Idea of Altair"

2) Either you don't know what Acausality is or what Fallacious is. Being unbound by Linear time does not make you a Type 1 Acausal and being bound by Linear time doesn't mean you aren't a Type 1 Acausal. The Acausality part was explained and accepted in This Thread as well as Here too By multiple members as well as the Staff. She was born without a Universe or a Background Story as stated Multiple times and was additionally stated to Transcend the Yoke which binds the Storyworlds (Aka the Causality) for which she could easily interact and exist in any Universe and could not be controlled in a story like the Elimination Chamber and gets Type 4 Acausality. And LMFAO no one is using that scan to prove her Acausality. No one could change her character description and effect her because even if they did, the Audience would not accept the changes as their perceptions and emotions towards her shape her powers Which was also shown here

3) So you agree with the Abstract Existence but don't even understand how it works and just made point 2?? Lol. Also The Verse doesn't work at all like that. There was shown multiple times that a threshold has to be made for a story or Character to be accepted and just creating them doesn't create a parallel universe or story. Case in Point is Selesia's Revision or Aliceteria trying to create a new story forcing her author and they failed since the threshold for Audience Acceptance wasn't accepted. Also there are no Alternate Altairs or Alternate Universe Altairs and nothing indicates or implies that there are any such Altairs. The Altairs shown in the videos are just the raw creations of different people using "The Idea of Altair" as I've pointed out in my first point. She even goes on to say how she is sustained by the Creators contributing to the story of Altair.

4) That's.... Literally given in her Weakness for Low 7-C form. However, in her Low 2-C Form her Abstraction is extended as she is perceived by the Real World, the Universe she creates for Setsuna, and the Countless Universes that she and Setsuna create where they will be considered as Gods.

5) I've already addressed that part In this thread. She doesn't necessarily need weapons to execute an ability as she has done executed an ability using Weapons and at a later Episode without any weapons. Those Weapons are literally there for her showing dramatic effects and are not anything special. Anyone who has watched the entire series knows that.

Debunking Your Statements

1) My blog refers to how the creators can create Universes from their thoughts as possibilities and Altair was created in such a manner without any background story or information or description but was accepted by the Audience. What you missed is that there exists a threshold of Audience Acceptance/Approval which is needed to turn that possibility into Reality. And Refer to my 3rd point.

2) I'm sorry but Burden of Proof falls on the positive Claim and in this case You made the claim that there exists multiple versions of Altair. Now can you show me where was it stated that there Exists Multiple versions of Altair and how Altair relies on them????. Because Both me and Assalt have explained to you Using my Blog that she exists as the Very Idea of Altair perceived by others and how the perceptions of her changes her powers and Attributes.

Dragopentling said:

"Altair shouldn't have type 1 acausality."

I don't entirely recall if there was any instance of her walking around when time is frozen, unless if you count a separately created dimension/universe.

"Altair's Abstract Existence is overplayed without proof."

I do agreed on this. Altair needs to be a very embodiment of a concept, thought, or information. She can take over one's existence in given conditions, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's straight up an abstract existence.

"Altair can only use an ability without weapons, that she has been shown to use without weapons."

What do you mean by this, specifically?

"Altair's regen has a severe weakness considering the fact that creators sustain her existence."

That could be true unless it's confirmed she's able to have that ability without having her creators present. I even question if she has regen unless the regen part naturally comes from the effect of an hax.


That's how I'm thinking right now about this

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1) Type 1 Acausality doesn't grant you any such thing. Acausality Type 1, 2, 3, 4 in general has nothing to do with Time Stop. So idk what y'all are on about.

2) Altair isn't the Embodiment of any concept or thought but rather she IS the Idea of Altair that was initially conceptualized by Setsuna. I've went about that in my blog which were accepted by multiple staff members including Assalt, Kaltias, Celestial, Antvasima

3) Refer to my previous comment in point number 5

4) Her Regen was shown throughout the series. She even Regened from nothing when Sirius erased her during their first meeting.

Lancer45Man said:

Dragopentling said:

"Altair shouldn't have type 1 acausality."

I don't entirely recall if there was any instance of her walking around when time is frozen, unless if you count a separately created dimension/universe.

"Altair's Abstract Existence is overplayed without proof."

I do agreed on this. Altair needs to be a very embodiment of a concept, thought, or information. She can take over one's existence in given conditions, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's straight up an abstract existence.

"Altair can only use an ability without weapons, that she has been shown to use without weapons."

What do you mean by this, specifically?

"Altair's regen has a severe weakness considering the fact that creators sustain her existence."

That could be true unless it's confirmed she's able to have that ability without having her creators present. I even question if she has regen unless the regen part naturally comes from the effect of an hax.


That's how I'm thinking right now about this

Click to expand...

1) Type 1 Acausality doesn't grant you any such thing. Acausality Type 1, 2, 3, 4 in general has nothing to do with Time Stop. So idk what y'all are on about.

2) Altair isn't the Embodiment of any concept or thought but rather she IS the Idea of Altair that was initially conceptualized by Setsuna. I've went about that in my blog which were accepted by multiple staff members including Assalt, Kaltias, Celestial, Antvasima

3) Refer to my previous comment in point number 5

4) Her Regen was shown throughout the series. She even Regened from nothing when Sirius erased her during their first meeting.

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Oh okay, then I have mistaken. Thanks for clarifying, then, I guess. I don't really have any further comment.

1. She exists as an idea which the blog details it and points it out.

2. Type 1 Acausality isn't related to being bound by time and she exists as chara with no background story or universe in addition to transcending the causality of the Storyworlds in the verse. There's even a thread for that iirc and even people accepted it in the recent upgrade thread.

3. There really aren't any alternate Altairs as people have only used the idea of Setsuna's Altair to create their creations that only contributed towards the abstraction of Altair.

4. You're contradicting your own self here. You're saying that she relies on alternate altairs but then saying she'll die if the planet is destroyed as she is reliant on the idea of Altair???

5. This was brought up before in the Altair vs Medea thread and lancer proved how she can use the same ability using weapons and without using weapons.


Gonna have to be honest here. I'm not the one to judge but your downgrade thread was really poor as you lacked basic fundamental understandings of the pages such as Conceptual Manipulation, Abstract Existence, Acausality,etc and also the entire Verse. You went on to contradict yourself in the post and couldn't bring up a new point that wasn't used previously in a debate and addressed. Sorry if this sounds rude, my apologies.

Well, it seems like the others have already covered this a decent bit, but most of this just seems to come down to lack of understanding. Your interpretation, unusual as it is, isn't even internally consistent nor does it propose what you seem to think it proposes.

Like Tman, I'm sorry if this sounds crass but I just don't see the validity here.

However, while the overarching downgrades I strongly disagree with, I actually see pieces of the 5th point.

Altair can use many abilities without her swords/guns, including her 14th Movement, but the other movements seem to need her gun and sword to properly activate, so I'm with you there. Nothing on her page would change, though.

Imo we don't know if she really requires to swipe guns and swords like violins to use her movements or not because she seems to do so for some dramatic thing just to get audience approval by entertaining them. However, I'm neutral on this.

@Tman

Well, we don't KNOW, but we can infer as much and can't assume the contrary. When she turns Selesia's sword into flower petals, despite not being seen using her movement or needing approval yet, she is still holding her sword and gun.

Yes yes. And iirc she also info rewrites Sirius into becoming Altair after taking over her without needing to swipe no guns with swords. Hence why I'm neutral. But like you said before, this doesn't change much on her profile as anyone familiar with the series knows such.

@Tman

Well I think we can take it as we see it. Her generic powers don't need her weaponry. Her movements do, except 14th which is passive (she didn't even need to do anything at all to activate it, since she wasn't wounded even before she spoke and Alicetaria accidentally killed herself with her punch afterwards, again without moving or speaking).

@Assalt that's plausable. And yeah her 14th is passive cuz on top of what you said, it delayed the effects untill Altair spoke about the ability and in that instant Aliceteria was the one to be affected. This makes me believe that Altair is a character who lives for dramatic stuffs and timings lol.

For a second there I thought this was Altair Ibn'La-Ahad

XD, carry on.

I'll be honest with my thoughts here and I'll probably be wrong, anyway, because I don't have a whole lot of memorable moments watching Re Creators....but I feel like most of her abilities will just go off anyway without her swiping her guns and swords whatsoever. Basically, I think she's trying to be stylish or graceful. *shrugs*

She's more likely gonna get off one or more of her abilities, regardless.

Dragopentling said:

I'll be honest with my thoughts here and I'll probably be wrong, anyway, because I don't have a whole lot of memorable moments watching Re Creators....but I feel like most of her abilities will just go off anyway without her swiping her guns and swords whatsoever. Basically, I think she's trying to be stylish or graceful. *shrugs*

She's more likely gonna get off one or more of her abilities, regardless.

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That's also what I've been getting at after watching the series.

Tman766 said:

Dragopentling said:

I'll be honest with my thoughts here and I'll probably be wrong, anyway, because I don't have a whole lot of memorable moments watching Re Creators....but I feel like most of her abilities will just go off anyway without her swiping her guns and swords whatsoever. Basically, I think she's trying to be stylish or graceful. *shrugs*

She's more likely gonna get off one or more of her abilities, regardless.

Click to expand...

That's also what I've been getting at after watching the series.

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I mean, she's literally at least equal to God in her verse, if not above. She can be allowed to show some swag...LOL

Dragopentling said:

I'll be honest with my thoughts here and I'll probably be wrong, anyway, because I don't have a whole lot of memorable moments watching Re Creators....but I feel like most of her abilities will just go off anyway without her swiping her guns and swords whatsoever. Basically, I think she's trying to be stylish or graceful. *shrugs*

She's more likely gonna get off one or more of her abilities, regardless.

Click to expand...

My point exactly.

Lancer45Man said:

Dragopentling said:

I'll be honest with my thoughts here and I'll probably be wrong, anyway, because I don't have a whole lot of memorable moments watching Re Creators....but I feel like most of her abilities will just go off anyway without her swiping her guns and swords whatsoever. Basically, I think she's trying to be stylish or graceful. *shrugs*

She's more likely gonna get off one or more of her abilities, regardless.

Click to expand...

My point exactly.

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Yea I see now. Sry for misunderstanding the first time.

It's cool. No problem.

@Lancer
1) "Altair exists as an idea."

I agree. plain and simple. I say this in the OP.

2) "Either you don't know what Acausality is or what Fallacious is. Being unbound by Linear time does not make you a Type 1 Acausal and being bound by Linear time doesn't mean you aren't a Type 1 Acausal."

Okay. Maybe I came off a bit too strong here with confusing wording.

The rest of your post was completely debunked in my second statement. If they had audience acceptance, they could change her character description, which means she isn't a true type 1.

It's a resistance feat.

3) "There was shown multiple times that a threshold has to be made for a story or Character to be accepted and just creating them doesn't create a parallel universe or story."

Well yes. They can be created without creating a universe but that's only within the context of the real world...Not the story worlds, but this isn't too relevant to the main point tbh.

"She even goes on to say how she is sustained by the Creators contributing to the story of Altair."

This is part of my point...but seperate from the one I'm about to make.

She's the imbodiment of the idea of every Altair ever created. But that doesn't mean she IS every Altair ever created..which is a simplified version of my original point.

4) "That's.... Literally given in her Weakness for Low 7-C form."

If that's true, my bad. But I at least glanced over her weakness section before making this point.

"However, in her Low 2-C Form her Abstraction is extended as she is perceived by the Real World, the Universe she creates for Setsuna, and the Countless Universes that she and Setsuna create where they will be considered as Gods."

I really don't understand how this gets rid of her weakness.

5) Dead.

D

1) I see what you're saying a bit here, but because Altair has no canonicity some of those audience acceptance rules might not even apply to her. I mean...every audience member percieves her to be as powerful as she is? That makes little sense in context.

2) "I'm sorry but Burden of Proof falls on the positive Claim and in this case you made the claim that there exists multiple versions of Altair. Now can you show me where was it stated that there Exists Multiple versions of Altair and how Altair relies on them????. Because Both me and Assalt have explained to you Using my Blog that she exists as the Very Idea of Altair perceived by others and how the perceptions of her changes her powers and Attributes."

I provided evidence for my claim. Using other characters statements for ammo. I can't without a shadow of a doubt prove alternate Altairs, I can only infer using information given. As I said: "This interpretation wouldn't be so bad if Altair had at least displayed memories of the other stories and creators....but she hasn't, so there's 0 evidence for it."

It's probably my own fault that you guys can't understand the OP

Tman~ "You're contradicting your own self here. You're saying that she relies on alternate altairs but then saying she'll die if the planet is destroyed as she is reliant on the idea of Altair???"

You missed my whole point here.

2) Audience Acceptance doesn't change Character Description. Did you even read what I said. It's the perceptions of the Audience that changes her power in the present time. They aren't rewriting Altair to change her powers. Even the creators couldn't do that. They see her as she is and their perceptions make her powers fluctuate and evolve the more they believe on her. And that's really not why she gets Type 1 Acausality. Type 1 is for having no true background or story or born of a Universe. What you said about the Resistance part is already covered in my Upgrade thread which gives her additional resistances.

3) No they aren't created as a story world. She is every Altair ever created because she is the ORIGINAL IDEA OR CONCEPT that was created by Setsuna and used to create Fanfics. You even accept that in point 1 which Contradicts this point.

4) Because her weakness in Low 7-C is now absent in Low 2-C. In Low 2-C form her Abstraction is reliant on the multiple Universes she created.

5) F

D

1) I'd suggest you read Conceptual Manipulation page especially Type 4 Concepts. It's literally what Altair is. So you'll get the idea.

2) No you actually haven't. Different people creating their own version of Altair doesn't make them Alternate Altairs but rather they're expanding the very idea of Altair and feeding it information.

Like Tman and Assalt said, you really haven't understood the basic ideas of Concepts, Abstracts, Acausality and even the verse and you have no idea what you're trying to propose. You're consistently contradicting your own points.

2) I wasn't saying that's what gives her type 1, I'm saying it contradicts it. If she can be affected negatively by having her character description changed under any circustances, that means she's not a type 1.

3) Not true "She is every Altair ever created because she is the ORIGINAL IDEA OR CONCEPT that was created by Setsuna and used to create Fanfics." I never accepted this.

4) Do we have proof of this? If there is proof of this I'll concede on this point.

D

1) That's fine. I'm not arguing against that. I was arguing against your acceptance rules statement. Under acceptance rules a creation is as powerful as a substantial group of creators percieve them to be. It makes no sense for a majority of the audience to percieve her to be as powerful as she is, I mean a lot of them didn't even know about Altair. (Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.)

2) That's plain and simple a difference of interpretation, because this " Different people creating their own version of Altair doesn't make them Alternate Altairs but rather they're expanding the very idea of Altair and feeding it information." is never directly stated, same as alternate world Altairs are never directly stated.

2) It doesn't. Because her character description isn't getting changed or rewritten or retconned. She was not negatively affected throughout the series and the series itself establishes that changing her character description won't do anything.

3) It's literally explained in the blog and you failed to debunk it.

4) It's literally how Type 4 Concepts work. Her Low 7-C had planet ranged weakness because people in the Earth perceived her and Destroying the planet destroys her Abstraction. In her Low 2-C form not only does the real world people perceive her, but Setsuna who lives in a different Universe perceive her along with the people of the numerous Universes she's creating with Setsuna perceive both of them as Gods.

D

1) Everyone actually perceived her throughout the Elimination Chamber at the same time which Consistently boosted her powers. Prior to that people only created creations of her and only the abilities and powers in their creations gets added to her singularly.

2) It's explained in Ep 20 where she explains how she extracts desire as well as how creators add to the poem

2) The reason why changing her character description wouldn't work is stated to be because of audience acceptance. Which, as I said before, means that if the audience accepts the change in her character description something could be done. Which means she isn't a type 1.

4) That only makes sense if we consider the humans in the universes Altair creates to have the same creative powers as the humans in the real world....which is fine.

D

1) This is exactly my point. The rules for Altair's audience acceptance are clearly different from normal. She doesn't have the same threshold for approval, it seems.

Also further evidence that he is just an abstract of all ideas and isn't just sustained by other versions of herself is that she has all their powers.

The video that has Altair turn zombies into flower petals would be its own version of Altair. If she was just sustained by them, she wouldn't have every power that they do, and this specific version of Altair would be the only one to have the Third Movement. Unless of course you want to say that she isn't just sustained by the other versions, but also gains all their powers. So basically it's either...

A. Altair gains all the powers people perceive her to have and is sustained by those perceptions.

B. Altair gains all the powers and is sustained by all the different literal Altair versions that exist in their own stories that people create.

While both are interpretations of what is presented, I certainly believe that A has more evidence to back it up. Furthermore, having different literal Altairs would contradict the point of Altair not being like other creations. If she had a bunch of literal Altairs walking around the Creators could easily just change them by contacting the specific Altair version creator they wanted and publicize a new work that would then take a power from her in the same way they gave Selesia new powers.

Altair can't be changed, period, because she isn't just connected to literal versions of herself, she is independent except by thought and perception by individuals, not collectives, alone.

2) No? It's literally because she's an Abstract Existence. Audience Acceptance is people's perception of her. If they all perceive her as someone powerful enough to create Universes, she will become (and as a matter of fact, has become) Low 2-C. If they don't believe in her or perceive her to be unimportant or Non-Existent, she'll cease to exist (Case in Point Sirius). That really doesn't debunk type 1 as nobody is retconning her or rewriting her and neither is there anything to rewrite as she's completely without any background story. It's literally how people perceive her and want her to be.

D

1) look at Assalt's reply above

@Assalt

I'm not saying that Altair is directly relient on Alternate Altairs. I'm saying that she is relient on the idea of Altair which is perpetuated by Alternate Altairs. Without creators creating alternate Altairs, she wouldn't exist because "The idea of Altair" would be mostly lost.

Even if she did still exist without them, she would only have her original abilities gifted to her by setsuna.


"If she had a bunch of literal Altairs walking around the Creators could easily just change them by contacting the specific Altair version creator they wanted and publicize a new work that would then take a power from here."

I see what you're saying here, but it's conjecture. It could be an oversite on the writer's part, or PIS, or simply they didn't have a way to contact all of the fan creators.

As I said~ "This interpretation wouldn't be so bad if Altair had at least displayed memories of the other stories and creators....but she hasn't"

@Yung

She doesn't remember other stories or creators because they just added to her powerset. The attributes given to her by the other are aspects she obtains; she doesn't gain a new story or memories for each new version. In fact, she specifically stated that she was unbound by her own story, had become independent, and lacked a background.

While perception gives her different powers, it can't change the fundamental idea of "Altair", since creators can't do squat to her.

At the end of the day this may just come down to interpretation, even though I believe the original interpretation to have more backing it up. So far, though, you haven't convinced a user of your position and this may just be one of those times where, for equally viable interpretations, majority rules.

Sweet Hanyuu, the Altair downplay is strong.


This guy says it pretty well, and I don't feel like typing it all.


https://topstrongest.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:RM97/Re:Creators_Cosmology

Orion'sBow said:

Sweet Hanyuu, the Altair downplay is strong.


This guy says it pretty well, and I don't feel like typing it all.


https://topstrongest.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:RM97/Re:Creators_Cosmology

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so basically, just flat-out overpowered via strength of imagination

Basically.