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Altair (Re:Creators) vs Medea Pideth Machina

Maybe a mismatch, actually from further inspection Medea is likely 2-A...but i'm too busy working on another verse for that CRT.

Altair might also be screwed by perfect slave because evidence provided in the series suggests that most of her "Holopsicon Movement" Abilities require some kind of instument or object which Medea can steal.
 
She doesn't require any instrument or object and neither are those weapons she uses any special. It's just for theatrics as she has displayed thought based abilities without using any weapons or theatrics. The Holopsicon itself is an abstract power source just like Altair herself.
 
@Lancer

Is there any proof of this? I mean just because she doesn't need an object for a few of her abilities doesn't mean she doesn't need them for the other ones. Altair isn't really a show-off type, so I have no idea why she would do something like that for theatrics.

Anyway, if Medea isn't outright 2-A, I could argue that she has either 2-A conceptual death manipulation or 2-A EE....Which...considering Altair's type of Regen/Abstract existence, is definitely capable of killing her.

Also one must consider the fact that the true incarnation of Medea will be far outside of Altair's attack range...
 
It's shown throughout the series that she doesn't really need to necessarily use her weapons for her Abilities and neither are they anything special or magical. Like her Info Manipulation which she used to change Selesia's Sword in Ep 10 which was done via her weapons and yet after taking over Sirius she instantly rewrote Sirius into Altair 2.0. or about her Causality Manipulation or EoS Powers like Law Manip, Reality Warping,etc. They didn't require any weapons.

Altair IS a show off type. Not in Character but to gain Audience Acceptance she will show off. That's what happened throughout the entire Elimination Chamber Festival when it was directly stated she has the power to erase everyone but would not do it as she wants Audience Approval.

As per Medea's page, her Death Manip/EE/Conceptual Manip just enforces the concept of death on a person and erases them in all timelines and past present future. Cool ability but to bypass her Abstraction she'll need to literally bust the Multiverse since people perceive Altair or the Idea of Altair in all those Universes she created EoS apart from the real world and Setsuna's Universe. So as long as People Perceive her or remember her, she'll come back.

If Medea is 2-A then it's mismatch. If she's not and Low 2-C then Altair has multiple ways to kill or incap her while Medea has none. Even Type 9 isn't helping as 66th movement bypasses Immortality, Conceptual/Abstract Existence, Mid-Godly Regen and essentially becomes the target by Nullifying, absorbing and rewriting the target on a conceptual level.
 
Hmm...I see what you mean in terms of Altair being a show off, although the other stuff is questionable...I'll leave that alone for now.

As for Medea's ability; Altair would be EE in the past, present, and future of all divergent and parallel worlds. There won't be an Altair for them to remember.

The reason why Medea might be 2-A (At least her true form) is because appearently, The Wave Of Calalmity (Which she is factually responsible for) reality warped the entire infinite multiverse (Which...I'm not sure if this is true or not..I have to re-read the novel for facts...).

We as an audience never even see the true incarnation of Medea who is presumably much more powerful.

Also, it's not about negating Medea's regen/immortality. It's about the fact that her true form would just re-create another avatar with even more power to attack Altair, or snipe her from countless universes away. And Altair would be able to do nothing about it because she doesn't have the range.
 
Thing is Altair is an Acausal with no past for being born without any background story, plot or universe and transcends the Causality of all the Storyworlds in the Multiverse. So erasing her past present future isn't helping as there is no past to erase and Mid-Godly brings her back along with the abstraction.

If it's 2-A for that then it's a stomp for Medea.

I'm not even focusing on the Immortality or the Regen but that fact that Altair can Conceptually absorb and rewrite Medea to become Medea herself. Since her concept itself is gone, even the very idea of Medea would ceased to even exist. This Ability was the only ability the nearly ended Altair so yeah, it's very OP.
 
The abstract existence of Altair herself doesn't need to have a "background", because the alternate versions of Altair (Who she gets all her power from,and are the reason why she can even maintain as a consciousness) aren't abstract like her.

Her acausality is contradictory to her entire moveset. How can she be an "independent existence without a background or story who can no longer be manipulated by the normal powers of creation."

But be directly empowered by the powers of creation, and their background? I mean, all of her abilities come from alternate versions of herself created by different creators.

Once she gets EE, the creators would not know of Altair because Altair would not exist in their world...not in the past, present, or future.

Edit:

Also, conceptual absorption doesn't matter much since it would only be happening to a weaker avatar of Medea and it hasn't been shown to absorb 4-D and above concepts.
 
She doesn't have any alternate versions. That's the main point for her being an Abstract. She's a collective idea of all the people who thought of her and wrote about her.

Contradictory?? How??? She was never manipulated by the creators even inside the plot of Elimination Chamber. And about that directly empowered by the powers of creation, that's part of her abstract existence. She exists as a Type 4 Concept and as such, however the people perceive her will shape her and her powers. There's an entire blog about it as well as her Acausality justifying it on her page.

Like, I've explained before, moot point since Acausality + her Abstraction + Mid-Godly Regen protects her from that.

Funny thing because EoS Altair's powers work on 4D scale too. So don't see how it won't affect Medea unless she's beyond 4D which would make her 5D or High 2-A and this matchup a stomp. Assuming her true form exists as a higher D being and this version is just an Avatar, Altair still has ways to incap her via Info Rewrite, Power Mimicry, Power Null that bypasses resistance to Power Null, Cloning, Law Manip,etc
 
It's contradictory because the powers of creation don't just manipulate her, they are the source of her being, the reason for all of her powers....and they themselves who create these alternate Altair's have "backgrounds" and "pasts".

As I said before, the alternate versions of Altair arent abstract and have backgrounds in their respective worlds.

I just read the blog, which doesn't explain how her regen or abstract existence can help her against Medea's abilities...In fact, "She explicitly stated how she is completely different from the rest of the creations and how the thoughts and emotions of the creators sustained her existence due to their creations"

^^This completely negates the entire notion.


I don't doubt that Altair has 4-D power, but to say she would conceptually absorb a concept beyond baseline 4-D is a..."base"less assumption (I'm saying beyond baseline...because the concept of Medea exists far beyond a sigular universe). Especially considering the fact that she's never even used absorption and when it was used by the character who she scales to, it only had infinite 3-D range.

Also, not saying that Medea is 5-D at all.
 
But would Altairs mid-godly save her if she is 4-D erased?

What I mean is, even if she can always come back after being erased, since the one that would come back is a future version of her, that would also be erased again straight away.

So wouldn't it be a cycle of trying to regenerate and being erased the instant it works? (I mean the aside entire public opinion issue that I have no idea about)
 
They don't manipulate her at all. And it was stated already that the creations once created are separated from the Causality of the Real World. And neither is there any Alternate versions of Altair. She was born as an idea from Setsuna and once she died, Altair became an independent existence with no Canonicity or background or anything. Creators and People just created their own Fanfics and drawings and videos of Altair with each having it's own traits and powers and due to this, her concept itself was perceived by them which made her the Character she was in the show. There are really no alternate versions of Altair and neither are there any proof nor implications of her having them.

And pretty sure you don't understand how an Abstract Existence works. The link doesn't negate the notion because it supports the fact that as long as people Perceive her or Think or Create about her, her idea, her concept, her Abstraction will live on. Now, Does Anything Medea has that can AFFECT Abstract Concepts???


That's cool because Altair Abstraction EoS has a 2-B range for being perceived by the Real World, Setsuna's Universe, Altair's new Universe, and the countless/supposedly infinite universes she's creating with Setsuna. So her ability is more likely to work than not. And also, it's part of her Holopsicon because the ability is 66th Holopsicon Movement which is Altair's powerset that was also used by Sirius. EoS her abilities got boosted to 4D level.
 
DontTalkDT said:
But would Altairs mid-godly save her if she is 4-D erased?

What I mean is, even if she can always come back after being erased, since the one that would come back is a future version of her, that would also be erased again straight away.

So wouldn't it be a cycle of trying to regenerate and being erased the instant it works? (I mean the aside entire public opinion issue that I have no idea about)
Click to expand...
She can due to her Acausality + Abstraction present across the Multiverse. And no i really doubt that would happen as she can reform in another Universe and copy Medea and gain her powers and stuff and go to battle or reform in another Universe and snipe or incap Medea from there.
 
For Medea to Kill Altair, she'd need to Bust the Multiverse or Kill everyone in the Multiverse who knows Altair or even perceived her along with erasing Altair. It'll destroy her abstraction and will automatically make her cease to exist, which was weakness displayed by Sirius.

However, Medea don't know that about Altair in a death battle and even if she knew, she probably won't do it in character.
 
Lancer45Man said:
She can due to her Acausality + Abstraction present across the Multiverse. And no i really doubt that would happen as she can reform in another Universe
Click to expand...
Infinity destroyer erases her in every universe, though.
 
Destroying "Her" isn't the solution. It has to destroy her Abstraction itself aka it has to destroy everyone who has perceived her throughout the Multiverse due to the fact that as long as people who have known, heard, perceived, or even thought about her survives, it would be enough to Ressurect her back due to her nature of a Lesser Realist Abstract
 
Thing is the instant she resurrects she would just be deleted again in the same instant through the same initial attack. It is practically being dead or, if you want so, it's winning via permanent incapacitation.
 
It really won't work due to her being an Acausal. From what I'm getting, is that her "Infinity destroyer" destroys an enemy all through Space Time in past present future and even in Alternate Universes on a 2-A where every possibility of the enemy existing gets erased. This is cool but Altair really has no past and she transcended the Causality of the Multiverse that allows her to work under a different System. So her ressurecting isn't going to be a problem as she's not bound by the Cause (Initial Attack) and Effect (Her Getting Erased after her Ressurection/Regenerationn) that's working here.

But let me humor you and say the attack does work and she is continuously trapped in a cycle of erasure+Ressurection. That really isn't stopping her from Probability Manipulating+Possessing Medea even if she doesn't Ressurect as she was nearly erased on a conceptual level but pulled off the same on Sirius, an Acausal being, and possessed her.

And this is IF and only IF Medea gets to attack her. Because as soon as the match starts, Altair can Info Rewrite her, Null her, Copy her powers and gain all her abilities and resistances, make a duplicate of Medea to fight her, Reality Warp her away, Law Manip her, Plot/Fate Manip the battle so that no matter what happens Medea can't win,etc. And yes, it's completely in character for her to do so and EoS she has shown to possess Thought based Abilities that includes the above ones.
 
If this is still going and not considered a mismatch/stomp for either side, then I'll have to vote for Altair FRA cuz a lot of ways to incap Medea while Medea has possibly only one.
 
As I said before, how is Altair going to win if she can't affect Medea's true form and Medea uses Infinity Destroyer or teleports away the second she feels even minimally threatened at all?


"And pretty sure you don't understand how an Abstract Existence works. The link doesn't negate the notion because it supports the fact that as long as people Perceive her or Think or Create about her, her idea, her concept, her Abstraction will live on. Now, Does Anything Medea has that can AFFECT Abstract Concepts???"

Once again. They cannot think of or create her if she is erased allthroughout time in their universe. We know for a fact that these thoughts, ideas, and stories of alternate altairs are indeed parallel versions of her in other worlds. I mean, in those screenshots Altair flat out states "My existence is sustained by the infinite number of creators who add to this poem."

I'll leave out the fact that there aren't actually an infinite amount of creators, and focus on what she says afterwards.

She is sustained by the story of "Altair" constantly being added to and changed.

As I said before, even though the main version of Altair has no background to erase or affect, that isn't the case for the alternate altair's created who sustain her existence.


I'm fairly certain of Medea using her powers before Altair because despite what her profile says in her weakness section, she's actually a fairly careful person who would immediately use her stongest attack on an infinitely weaker opponent just because she couldn't one-shot them casually, or teleport away just because her opponent landed a single successful attack.

^^This combined with the fact that Medea can sense Altair's power and Altair would start off fighting a weaker fragment could spell Altair's end.

I mean, even when she was nerfed by Naofumi's infinity zero and Raphtalia's infinity bunker, her EE was still 2-A. Then we have to consider that even disregarding 2-A stuff Medea has a pretty big AP advantage. Even after fusing most of the eight worlds together she couldn't even manifest her true form within them without busting them via her presence alone.

Then there's the question of Altair needing weapons for certain abilities...which we can talk about after everything else.
 
As I said before, how is Altair going to win if she can't affect Medea's true form and Medea uses Infinity Destroyer or teleports away the second she feels even minimally threatened at all?

Incap is a thing and Altair has a 2-B, Possibly 2-A range even with Teleportation. Heck even if Medea sees her and Teleports to the farthest location from the battlefield on a 2-A scale, her perception of Altair would now extend to that Universe Medea is in and allow her to arrive there.

Once again. They cannot think of or create her if she is erased allthroughout time in their universe. We know for a fact that these thoughts, ideas, and stories of alternate altairs are indeed parallel versions of her in other worlds. I mean, in those screenshots Altair flat out states My existence is sustained by the infinite number of creators who add to this poem. I'll leave out the fact that there aren't actually an infinite amount of creators, and focus on the what she says afterwards. She is sustained by the story of Altair constantly being added to and changed. As I said before, even though the main version of Altair has no background to erase or affect, that isn't the case for the alternate altair's created who sustain her existence

1) Let elaborate again, Altair has NO PAST for NOT HAVING ANY BACKGROUND STORY OR BEING BORN OF A UNIVERSE. This forms her Type 1 Acausality. Additionally, she has Type 4 for Transcending the Causality system that binds the story worlds in the Multiverse. So Medea isn't killing anything in the past to begin with.

2) Altair has no Alternate Versions. She IS the collective idea and creation of all the fanfics and Fanarts and fanvideos. This is one of the reasons why she exists as an Abstraction. Burden of proof falls on you to show that she has Alternate Versions because it was never implied that she has Alternate Versions. Her Abstraction in Low 2-C form is because how all those Universes created by her and Setsuna view her as they are Gods to them.

I'm fairly certain of Medea using her powers before Altair because despite what her profile says in her weakness section, she's actually a fairly careful person who would immediately use her stongest attack on an infinitely weaker opponent just because she couldn't one-shot them casually, or teleport away just because her opponent landed a single successful attack. This combined with the fact that Medea can sense Altair's power and Altair would start off fighting a weaker fragment could spell Altair's end. I mean, even when she was nerfed by Naofumi's infinity zero and Raphtalia's infinity bunker, her EE was still 2-A. Then we have to consider that even disregarding 2-A stuff Medea has a pretty big AP advantage. Even after fusing most of the eight worlds together she couldn't even manifest her true form within them without busting them via her presence alone. Then there's the question of Altair needing weapons for certain abilities...which we can talk about after everything else.

1) I can say the same about Altair instantly info rewriting Medea at the beginning of the match or even possess her or Probability Manip her or Powernull via Law Manip. All of which are Thought Based and In Character for her.

2) Altair can too sense Medea's power. The Extrasensory Perceptions and Enhanced Senses aren't for decorations on her wall you know.

3) It's Low 2-C versions that's being used her and Altair is At Least Low 2-C for creating an Infinite Universes for an undefined period of time. So don't see how Medea has an AP advantage here.

4) Altair doesn't really needs weapons when she's super serious or in trouble and EOS she creates a Universe with it's own Laws and Reality for Setsuna with nothing after saving her.


So your entire argument boils down to Infinity Destroyer which is just Existence Erasure. Which like I said before, is cool and all, but not enough to put her down as Altair has several ways to get through it assuming if she even let Medea use Infinity Destroyer. Whereas Altair has loads of options to incap Medea with that Type 9 isn't gonna help with. The only thing Medea's attack is going to be erasing is the physical image of Altair.
 
1)I'm not disputing her acuasality, I'm disputing her immortality.

2) There is no proof that Altair is "the collective idea and creation of all the fanfics and Fanarts and fanvideos." This is never stated or even implied, all that's said is that she is sustained by her alternate version's existence and empowered by them.

3) Well, my whole point was that Medea would've ripped apart several universes fused together just by existing within them. But since this is strictly Low 2-C versions I guess this point might be somewhat moot, but it still gives her true form passive destruction at least, possibly passive reality warping and law manipulation (Wave Of Calamity)

4) I have a good arguement against this, but i'll save in for later.

Altair's plot manipulation likely won't help much because of Medea's ability to warp the laws of the universe itself.
 
@Yung

I'm sorry but no. Altair is borderline outright explained to be the collective abstract of all the ideas of "Altair". Lancer's blog explains it pretty well, but if you have Amazon Prime you can watch the series to gain context for this type of abstraction.

Altair is absolutely a Type 4 Conceptual and that is almost not even arguable.

As for my opinion of this match, I think it can go either way. The one movement shown to be completely passive is the 14th Movement, which inverts the effect of an attack. If Medea tries to erase her, she might end up erasing herself.
 
1) LMFAO you aren't disputing her Immortality but rather her Acausality. She's Type 8 for having reliant on the people's thoughts, ideas, creations of her.

2) For the hundreth time, there is no alternate version's existence and empowered by them and nothing was stated or implied to be as such. The entire line meant she will live as long as people perceive her, believe in her, or even keep creating creations about her. She even mentions how "The Power of Creation gets handed off to someone. The person feels it and thinks about it. Then those thoughts give birth to the power of Creation again." In context the entire scene explains how people create creations about her and through their perceptions of her, the Very Idea of Altair that Setsuna created before her death is alive.

3) Altair Resists Low 2-C Reality Warping and Law Manip as well as Power Null and Physics Manip even in Base for lolnoping the Universe's attempts to affect her. So moot point again.

4) You can use your argument as none of arguments are helping here

5) Hey that's cute except Altair too has Fate Manip, Reality Warping and Law Manip on top of Plot Manip as well that big wall of Hax on her profile.
 
@Assaltwaffle

I've watched the series, read the blog, and seen the screenshots. As I said, there's nothing to suggest that she is a collective consiousness.

Also, Medea could survive her own EE.
 
@Assaltwaffle

Her EE is basically enforcing Death on it's opponent. I'm really interested to know if it was ever used on or worked against someone who is a Type 1 Abstract Conceptual Existence with Acausality and Mid-Godly Regen

@Yung

I'd ask you to rewatch since you clearly don't even know what you're saying half the time in your arguments.
 
@Yung

Then idk how you don't really understand, to be frank. When Selesia literally says "Physical attacks have no effect. We must attack her concept itself" that seems like outright, definitive proof that she is conceptual. After that all that is left is to identify how she is conceptual, and I believe that Lancer and I have.
 
@Lancer

If she enforces death on the target that is Death Manipulation, not Existence Erasure.

That last part is uncalled for. There is no need accuse his arguments as a whole. I agree he is wrong here but don't lump everything he does together.
 
From her profile:

Infinity Destroyer: Medea can use conceptual attacks to instantly kill her opponents by materializing the concept of death on the target(s) to end their lives. The attack is also imbued with the concept of "bringing an end to all possibilities", allowing it to kill all past, present and future versions of the target(s) and all versions of them in every parallel or divergent world at the same time. She can additionally have the attack destroy the laws of the world and the law of cause and effect
 
@Lancer

1) I suppose so.

2) That's perfectly fine, but that doesn't make her a collective consiousness

3) Just because she can resist the laws placed on her by the world doesn't mean she can resist a Wave Of Calamity which warps the laws and reality of several worlds...but...I want to focus on the other points.

5) Ok. Altair has a chance here, never said she didn't. I also was using that as more of a way to say that she could possibly defend against Plot Manipulation...
 
@Assalt

I'm not denying that she's a conceptual existence, I'm denying that she's a collective conciousness of all versions of Altair which sustain her existence.

Infinity destroyer is stated to be conceptual death manipulation, but it works a lot like EE given its effects.
 
2) She is collective abstract of all the versions created which is why she has everything that was ever written or shown about her.

3) That makes Medea 2-C, not Low 2-C

4) You can say that but at the end of the day, Altair has loads going on for her.


Edit: I just read her quotes for Infinity Destroyer. While it does seem to be EE, however it looks more like attacking throughout Space-Time on a scale of countless Universes and having Causality Manipulation to back it up so that no possibilities of a target being alive arises. It doesn't seem like Conceptual Manipulation as it isn't attacking the concept of the target but rather using a combo of EE, Death Manip, Causality Manip, Space-Time Attacks to erase the target in all possible points of time in the creation.
 
Anyway, I'm voting Medea.

Votes:

Altair: 4

Medea: 1

Inconclusive: 1? (Assalt)

I say that Medea's true form will ID Altair before she can put her down because Altair cannot compete with her attack range. That's my main argument at least....
 
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