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Overlord: Ainz's Tier

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Assaltwaffle

Assaltwaffle

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In regards to some of Ainz Ooal Gow's tiers (and as a result Shalltear Bloodfalle's as well), I have some questions.

1. Where does the Island level stat come from? It is listed as "Environmental Destruction" but simultaneously has no calc for it. Actually, it has literally no justification.

2. His Small City calc is flawed. I will probably be redoing it soon, despite my departure from the calc group. I'll be doing this mostly for me, since I just binged the series and enjoyed most of it, and thus want to do it justice.

3. Why isn't Ainz higher tier? His guardians and he himself have stated that they have the ability to "reduce (Baharuth) to ashes". A country level statement. While some may suggest that feats > statements, and you're correct, Ainz has over 700 spells and many may be suitable for AoE rather than short-range obliteration like he used against Shalltear. If anything, a "possibly" in front of a 6-B stat wouldn't be unreasonable, in my opinion.

Thoughts on any of this?
 
I would like to see this quote about destroying a country. No one in overlord is even close to country level. I want proof they can instantly destroy a country when their super tier spells destroy the equivalent of a city block.
 
https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/welcome-to-the-rice-fields-************-overlord.26517/

I think it's this one
 
The island level bit came from him freezing the lake of the lizardman tribes. Pretty certain there used to be a calc there, but it looks like that got unlinked at some point.

As for the country level statements, I agree with that. I believe there have been several statements of that nature, and we haven't really seen them seriously attempt any large scale destruction to my knowledge. It should at least warrant a likely rating.
 
While I agree with this, and it is in fact stated that his servants could destroy entire countries alone there is no feats even comparable yet to prove this.

Food for thought though, Evileye, a character half the levels of Ainz has been stated to have a spell to be able to level an entire city.

From Overlord Wiki

"According to YGGDRASIL standards, she is thoroughly estimated to be around level 50. It was implied that Evileye's innate talent has the ability to easily annihilate an entire city, but didn't want to dwell further on the subject since it is her ace in the hole"

And Evileye is only around level 50, already boasting the capability to destroy a city. With Ainz and his servants obviously being far stronger than her.

Volume 13 Overlord has Ainz fighting Jaldaboath causually throwing around minature Nuclear Blasts that apparently do very low damage to him and Jaldaboath, but harm the battle maids(Acting as Jaldaboaths demon servants) and wipe out entire districts of a city of what used to be 150,000 people. I think its quite safe to say we haven't seen what they can really do yet.

At least I don't think a tier of 6-B would be unreasonable either, at the very least 6-C.
 
Why was the 6-C calc decided to not be used for Ainz's primary tier? It's a weaker version of the magic he uses in battle.

Similarly, his Maids are able to storm clear across the horizon in seconds.

Also there are a lot of things to consider when I re-calc Fallen Down.

1. Shalltear and her armor were vaporized. Even assuming her armor to be regular steel, that raises the minimum temperature increase undergone by the area. Stone's vaporization point was assumed since that's the minimum, but it is clear that the spell was capable of temperatures far above that.

2. A LOT of the spell didn't even hit the ground. It's a pillar attack that has a lot of upward range; using only the base as the full area vastly undersells it. Heat change of the air in the full area would give a better result than the small amount of land it vaporized.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
1. Shalltear and her armor were vaporized. Even assuming her armor to be regular steel, that raises the minimum temperature increase undergone by the area. Stone's vaporization point was assumed since that's the minimum, but it is clear that the spell was capable of temperatures far above that.

2. A LOT of the spell didn't even hit the ground. It's a pillar attack that has a lot of upward range; using only the base as the full area vastly undersells it. Heat change of the air in the full area would give a better result than the small amount of land it vaporized.
Click to expand...
Honestly those two points you bring up are really great, If i had to guess, its because nobody really thought of that, just like me, I didn't think about those two points at all.
 
Unfortunately without calcing I don't know. I'd probably wait until the storm revisions complete before doing it, but it is probably in low Tier 7.
 
I heavily disagreed with downgrading it from 6-C in the first place, but they said that Creation is far more powerful then any other super tier spell and shouldn't scale.
 
Why would Creation be so much more powerful than other spells designed for combat that are considered to be far better feat-wise?

Storm controlling magic is tier 6 at minimum, but can go into 7. I don't think that even freezing a lake holds a candle to his Super tier spells.
 
I dunno. It just was. I heavily disagreed, like I said.

I'd say calcing it is a great idea
 
However, on a lower note, his Black Hole Creation should be downgraded to Psuedo-Black Hole Creation. The attack didn't function fully like a black hole and shouldn't be regarded as a true one. If it was accepted to be true would could calc the black hole and that would shove him into 5-B lol.
 
I thnk it was because they decided his Creation skill which aloowed him to freeze an entire lake has the description of making "large-scale changes to the land." Becasue of this, they decided that should be considered Environmental Destruction and his physical strength should not scale. As well as any spells that aren't Super-tier.
 
6-C with PW doesn't fit with how they are scaling Ainz rn if even his other Super don't scale to Creation.
 
They don't scale because the energy of Fallen Down (another Super tier) is vastly inferior to the effects of Creation. FD is a meant to damage the opponent while Creation is specifically meant to change the environment. If the output of your offensive spells are so much weaker, why would you scale PW physicals to something else.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
Why was the 6-C calc decided to not be used for Ainz's primary tier? It's a weaker version of the magic he uses in battle.

Similarly, his Maids are able to storm clear across the horizon in seconds.

Also there are a lot of things to consider when I re-calc Fallen Down.

1. Shalltear and her armor were vaporized. Even assuming her armor to be regular steel, that raises the minimum temperature increase undergone by the area. Stone's vaporization point was assumed since that's the minimum, but it is clear that the spell was capable of temperatures far above that.

2. A LOT of the spell didn't even hit the ground. It's a pillar attack that has a lot of upward range; using only the base as the full area vastly undersells it. Heat change of the air in the full area would give a better result than the small amount of land it vaporized.
Click to expand...
 
AnonymousBlank said:
They don't scale because the energy of Fallen Down (another Super tier) is vastly inferior to the effects of Creation. FD is a meant to damage the opponent while Creation is specifically meant to change the environment. If the output of your offensive spells are so much weaker, why would you scale PW physicals to something else.
Click to expand...
People have vastly underestimated the power of fallen down, just look at how much didn't even hit the ground, the blast goes up(I don't think we can even see the full extent of how high up it is in the anime). Admitely, I didn't even notice this myself. The greatest example is the 2nd and final fallen down against shalltear and when you take into consideration she is able to tank multiple of these, it puts it into perspective.
 
Because Ainz max offensive output is measured by his strongest shown offensive spell. If FD gets recalc'd with a higher output and its approved, great, until then he remains at Low 7-B.
 
Then wait for Assalt to calc it with the things noted in that post and hope it gets accepted. Nothing is gonna happen without an alternate calc.
 
It doesn't scale because it's an "Environmental Alteration Spell", I.E., it specifically affects weather/temperature and isn't something that would operate the same as his combat-applicable spells like fallen down. It would be like giving a weather manipulater the ability to channel the energy of an entire storm into a narrow funnel without ample justification, which is just silly.

I also love how people are complaining about ED only after it starts affecting verses they like (Which it doesn't even really do, it just makes those instances more apparent due to there being a standard), as I had literally no opposition when I proposed it.
 
@Dargoo I don't know if that "complaining about ED" line was directed at me, but I never liked the concept. I think it is safe to assume that if an character can use power to manipulate the environment, they have the power to do it with their attacks as well.

Imagine a generator. This generator is capable of heating up a room to blazing temperatures when attached to a heater (assuming the temperature obtained by the heater is determined by the intensity of the power source). The generator is then attached to a laser. Is the energy output of the generator suddenly lower? No, it's constant.
 
I find it dumb how World Class Items don't scale despite it being clear that World Class Items >>> Literally anything else in the verse.
 
Then why didn't you speak up when it was proposed? Would have saved me a bunch of trouble having to explain it over and over again.

As the ED page says it's normally nonsensical to scale storm creation to other feats unless you can prove they run on the same energy, or has a good reason to scale. In Ainz's case, spell is an envrionmental alteration one and not one that he can use purely offensively.

Hurricanes and Tornados can be survived without any injury by 9-B characters. Being able to create them says nothing about your ability to harm an opponent, unless, as I've said, there is good reason. In this case, there isn't.

ED is part of the rules now, either way. If you want to debate it, make a CRT to remove it.
 
Why didn't I speak? In all likelihood I wasn't on the Wiki at the time. I was gone for two months, Dargoo.

Also the only reason that it's nonsensical is because you say it is. Your using the exact same argument Matt and I (originally) used in the Electricry thread.
 
However, ED is a rule on the site as it stands. We're not debating 'whether or not ED is a good idea', we're debating 'does ED apply or not'.

The former should be argued on a separate thread to prevent derailing.

We do the same thing for Mass-Energy Calcs, Assault. There are times in fiction where applying science bloats results if you don't provide good justifications. Lifting your hand and making a storm doesn't immediately mean the fireballs you throw deal more damage than a nuclear bomb.
 
The fact that it's a noncombative spell is the exact reason it wouldn't scale.

Funny Valentine doesn't suddenly cause people to suffer 7-B damage because his stand caused a storm to form.
 
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