Zoro Upgrades

[Xulrev]

Agreed with Cin. Zoro flexed out of the gravity well, it's Lifting Strength, not Attack Potency for cryin' out loud, that's the best scaling you can get out of this whole debacle.

The mere fact that Zoro couldn't simply one-shot Pica until it became, solely, a battle of Haki is also only a feat for his Haki being superior, not his AP. Pica used full-body Haki, Zoro focused his all in a single slash, makes sense that Pica got overcome in the clash and lost after an extended battle.

To say Zoro is two times Pica's AP due to that is.....well it's something alright. Definitely comes off a bit as wank.

Gotta agree with Cin on this

 

[Eminiteable]

Then Zoro doesn't scale to Fujitora: that wasn't the discussion to begin with; it was Zoro upscaling to baseline 1 gigaton based off one shotting Pica; that isn't a 2 times increase its not even a 1.2 times increase and was likely already being taken into account in every Zoro match-up so far.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; with the current revisions on Pica's ratings, that scaling is currently called into question. So it would be probably best to hold off on this anyway.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

I also agree that Zoro shouldn't get High 7-A for breaking through Fuji's gravity, but shouldn't his Lifting Strength be upgraded because of it?

Zoro should still be upgraded due to Shishi Sonson and Asura, and I agree with PlumCrayfish's suggestion: "So, Dressrosa Zoro should be "At least 7-A+, higher with Shishi Sonson, High 7-A with Asura".

 

[Eminiteable]

Yes definitely there is no reasonable opposition for the technique stuff, the Shishi sonson was already accepted previously but just didn't get applied: I might do that now actually.

 

[Eminiteable]

if the Pica revisions go through:

"At least Mountain level, Higher with Shishi Sonson and Asura" Assuming Zoro would keep his at least rating for Dressrosa(which I think he would either way); however he would still have the at least for Wano due to what he did against Basil Hawkins.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh my god, quit being petty and drop it already, this is ridiculously childish

 

[Eminiteable]

@Schnee One what was the message, it was removed.

 

[Damage3245]

It doesn't matter.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, looks like what has generally been agreed on is adding Zoro's Asura multiplier and Shishi Sonson.

As for Zoro's specific rating, that depends on the results of the Pica revisions.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Eminiteable]

I suppose it could be relevant to bring it up in this thread; Zoro seems at least from what I'm seeing is missing Advanced Armament Haki from his Post-timeskip profiles (I tried to get input on the discussion thread from staff with no luck.)

• Essentially since Zoro can use koka on his blades (like Kin'emon) and since he has mastered the use of cutting steel via the Goken sword method similar to Mihawk (and other swordsmasters from Wano according to grandpa Hyou which is what brought advanced Armament for Zoro into discussion)

 

[LordWhis]

@Schnee One what was the message, it was removed.

I said he started it

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump for haki shit.

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[Eminiteable]

Depends on the results of the Current Pica Revision:

If the CRT gets approved Zoro will look like this for both keys (unless Law gets upgraded if so Wano key will be different):

"At least Mountain level, Higher with Shishi Sonson and Asura"

If the CRT gets denied Zoro will look like this:

"At least Mountain leve+, higher with Shishi Sonson, at least Large Mountain Level with Asura.

There also needs to be discussion on Zoro having advanced Armament Haki for both his Post-timeskip keys (this is pretty straightforward and only requires staff acknowledgment)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. Noted.

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn't Zoro only qualify for Proficient Armament Haki judging by the guidelines on our Haki page?

 

[The_Calaca]

Yes, I just got confused over the whole imbue power and I gave Kin'emon Advanced Armament.

I'll fix the profiles later.

 

[Eminiteable]

This was before the Grandpa Hyou explanation of cutting steel was revealed; i.e an old thread I made in the past but in the end the thread only ever focused on pre time-skip Zoro.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump

 

[CinCameron20]

IDK how well it is explained in the manga, but it seems Goken has different stages from Hyo's explanation. He notes how users can transfer their haki to their blade, and cut even steel as being an "earlier" level of application before showing Luffy what Goken can truly accomplish when used by a more masterful hand.

Zoro technically uses Goken as he can have his Haki transfer from his own body and into his weapons unlike someone like Dressrosa Luffy or current Sanji. He however can not seem to make barriers and certainly can't use Goken directly on an opponent unlike current Luffy.

If anything, it should be safe to assume characters such as Fujitora, Zoro, Doflamingo, Kinemon, etc can use Goken by a rudimentary level

• (Lol no, they do not neg durability, they just enhance the durability/attack power of their weapons/armor instead of just themselves. Doflamingo via his threads and coat, Zoro and Fujitora via their sword and ranged attacks, and Kinemon from his sword)

If needed, Goken should have it's own sub-section, and mentioned on each user's profile accordingly for either "lower level Goken" (ex. Zoro, Doflamingo) or "upper level Goken" (ex. Current Luffy, Rayleigh, possibly the OG 3 Admirals).

Lower level = simply using Haki on tools and clothing.

Upper level = barrier creation and dura neg

 

[The_Calaca]

Since the Dura Negation is explicitly called a level beyond what Hyou used, Goken should be divided in three sections, having Barrier Creation as Mid level and Durability Negation (and possibly the full transmutation of black blades) as High level.

 

[Damage3245]

From what I can tell imbuing an object with Haki is different to Goken. I'll give the chapters a quick re-read.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Personally I rather "Goken" was removed entirely as a term. At best leave it as a alternative term used by Wano people. The reason being it is clear Wano (Being isolated) has different terminology for pre-existing abilities so to use Goken as something seperate from armament haki confuses things going forward.

Instead just list "coating", "energy projection". "Shields", & "Durability negation (Via bypassing external layers)" under armament haki.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Calaca and Damage - Now that I think about it, when Luffy uses Gear 4th, he might actually be using a very basic application of Goken. He can use his Haki on his DF body without disrupting his bouncy and elastic physique.

It's like how Doflamingo's haki-threads still act as threads, Fujitora's (assuming he did this) gravity blade still acted as a gravitational force, Zoro's air-slash (not a df obv, but follows a similar method) was still in the form of air, and how other users are capable of harmonizing their Haki with their Devil Fruit without disrupting its functions.

• This is unlike when Luffy has to just turn his fist to Haki so that the rest of his body can stretch, how Smoker has to keep his fists solidified with the rest of his body turning to smoke, and other such cases like this.

(This is ASSUMING such a technique is also Goken, but it doesn't exactly have any merit for now)

 

[The_Calaca]

Wano inhabitants call Goken to the technique, while they call Haki "Ryou", so it's not the same.

Not like it matters as we would call Observation Haki "Mantra" if we weren't have the "official" name for it. Wait until Goken gets such treatment or accept that Goken as a term summarizes the phenomena much better than listing any of its applications, which turns to be impractical.

 

[Eminiteable]

I agree with Damage on this case; utilizing Koka on a blade isn't the same as what Hyou was describing; Koka imbueing into objects like sword as described by Mihawk makes them "unbreakable", however what Hyou describes and what we see during the Zoro Vs Mr 1 fight it seems the Goken swordsmanship thing is a sort of resistance negation.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Exactly. Wano has different terms. Why use them at all? Just use the official name of Armament Haki.

 

[Eminiteable]

What I'm essentially saying is the thing I'm proposing (whatever we decide to classify it as) isn't the same thing he does by imbeuing his blades with armament; whether that classifies as advanced Armament or not depends on how we classify it (although I imagine most are more inclined to say it's a proficient usage.)

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump

 

[Eminiteable]

Since the pica revisions are done can the Asura and shishisonson additions be made?

 

[Damage3245]

Should be fine.

 

[Eminiteable]

it's been added. since Pica revisions went through then there is no support for an upscale argument. this can probably be closed now.