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Zelda tiering and scaling revisions

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The Hyrule encyclopedia that I was given had labels for what was considered parallel worlds or not, Lorule was not labeled as one.
 
latest.png
 
Ok, I'm not talking about the guide though, I'm referring to the game itself, because as helpful as guides may be, they don't take precedent over what's established in game itself.
Otherwise we'd still be using the wind fish.
 
the lorule restoral by the triforce and its original decline are super weird to use as feats under our current system:

Lorule has its own Triforce and that destroying it sent the kingdom into a downward spiral of decline. It’s important to note however that the entire universe didn’t simply “explode” when the Triforce was removed. This decline happened over a period of generations (Hilda says her “ancestors” got rid of the Triforce) and most of the effects of decline was progressive damage to the planet and monsters appearing. Even at the end of the game when Lorule’s Triforce is restored, Lorule isn’t instantly warped back to normal and still has tons of fissures.

lets look at what the encycolpedia says the removal of the triforce did:

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From what im seeing here is that the sun gets blot out by the clouds, and the land is slowly crumbling apart
 
I mean, guides are good and all, but there is a whole game we could check for specifics, pretty sure context wise, at least in game, it wasn't generations, pretty sure it happened while Hilda was alive, in fact pretty sure he father did it.
On another note, if memory serves, Link moves between worlds (idk why nobody pointed out the game itself treats them as two different worlds as early as the game's title) via things called "dimensional rifts".
 
Chariot190 said:
I mean, guides are good and all, but there is a whole game we could check for specifics, pretty sure context wise, at least in game, it wasn't generations, pretty sure it happened while Hilda was alive, in fact pretty sure he father did it.
On another note, if memory serves, Link moves between worlds (idk why nobody pointed out the game itself treats them as two different worlds as early as the game's title) via things called "dimensional rifts".
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Explaining "Hyrule"

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

"Let's talk about this country for a bit. Long ago, there was a triangle that if touched, grants any wishes in Lorule. It's called Triforce. People fought over for this power, resulting in kingdom's collapse. The kingdom of Lorule, to stop this, destroyed the Triforce. But it backfired..... Triforce is a power of God. It's existence is the pillar of the world, holding it. With Lorule, not having the pillar, is destined to collapse. This land needs Triforce."
Click to expand...

sounds like even in game it was a long time ago, at least in the japanese version
 
My dude, that blog only has a fraction of a single scene from the game. Lorule isn't talked about only once, this whole collapse thing is talked about multiple times over. The blog doesn't exactly help us get a full picture, it helps start, but it's missing a lot of shit.

sounds like even in game it was a long time ago, at least in the japanese version
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Possibly, I'm only going on memory from a game I played like 8 years ago, or whenever it came out idk, but I can guarantee there's way more we can learn by checking the game in full and not just snippets from a single scene.
 
uhhhhh

werent you saying the english one was the one that said it was in hilda's generation?

the english translation here is backed up by the encyclopedia
 
Cyberblader90 said:
uhhhhh

werent you saying the english one was the one that said it was in hilda's generation?

the english translation here is backed up by the encyclopedia
Click to expand...
I never specified which translation I was talking about, just that pretty sure that was clarified in game somewhere.

What I'm saying is we should probably check the full game, instead of taking a single instance from the game and a few tidbits from a guide as the entire basis for any argument.
Because it's dumb, we have a full game with far, far more information in regards to the specifics, timeframes and even nature of Lorule in and of itself, using the absolute bare minimum, some of which is already contradictory, isn't exactly a good idea when there's gotta be no less then a few dozen pieces of information we're just ignoring here.

Encyclopedia and eng translation be damned, the japanese version takes precedent over both, we need to check that in full before we make any decisions here.
 
Just went through a text dump for the game, and the only other notable mention of when Lorule began crumbling is Ravio talking about it after Yuga is defeated. Any other mention of Lorule is about how it's a pretty shitty place to live in or people getting mad that the royal family destroyed the Triforce without mentioning anything about when it happened.

We should try to get a english translation of what Ravio says in the japanese version and see if he says anything more concrete about the timeframe there.
 
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There's definitely more then that, even mundane shit like a random NPC remembering when Lorule wasn't completely shit, or various things like what's ass exactly can help quantify this.
It's not as simple as just looking for mentions of Lorule.
 
I don't think it's worth the effort to find the timeframe, since the destruction it won't count as anything notable by the sites standards.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.
 
hmm this brings up a semantics question i guess.

do we treat the triforce as a character, or does this rule apply objects as well
 
I say we make an effort to find it anyway, even if it won't count for a solid tier, it's still something that matters and our purpose is to index things and the like, even if mundane. (Like **** we just gave Gio body control over the most mundane useless shit ever, but it be like it do).

If we're gonna rehaul Zelda, it's best to not cut corners, the more precise we can get, the better.
do we treat the triforce as a character, or does this rule apply objects as well
Click to expand...
Probably the same, it being an artifact wouldn't change the functionality and specifics of it.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
do we treat the triforce as a character, or does this rule apply objects as well
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the rules applies to objects as well.

Chariot190 said:
I say we make an effort to find it anyway, even if it won't count for a solid tier, it's still something that matters and our purpose is to index things and the like, even if mundane. (Like **** we just gave Gio body control over the most mundane useless shit ever, but it be like it do).

If we're gonna rehaul Zelda, it's best to not cut corners, the more precise we can get, the better.
Click to expand...
Yeah I get that we're meant to index everything, but what exactly would we do if we find a solid timeframe? It doesn't seem like we can use it for AP, I don't think there's any abilities we can give the Triforce that needs anything involving the timeframe for Lorules collapse, so what exactly would we index if we find the timeframe?
 
Dust_Collector said:
I don't think there's any abilities we can give the Triforce that need's anything involving the timeframe for Lorules collapse, so what exactly would we index if we find the timeframe?
Click to expand...
🤷‍♂️ idk, maybe some weird inverse corruption, environmental shit, don't know but ya never know. Hell maybe just a mention of how long it takes in it's attack and technique section? Point is I don't exactly feel like cutting corners because something won't yield big ass numbers is optimal long-term.
 
If we're gonna rehaul Zelda, it's best to not cut corners, the more precise we can get, the better.
Click to expand...

Considering how some of Ganon’s abilities don’t have much explanation (abilities I don’t know where he gets them from), it’s better to not cut corners.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Considering how some of Ganon’s abilities don’t have much explanation (abilities I don’t know where he gets them from), it’s better to not cut corners.
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That too. I recall Majora actually being subject to that, did a CRT for him months back, added a handful of citations because some of shit shit wasn't even explained or even stated as to why he has it in the first place, a handful of the profiles are like that, things listed but no reason as to why.
 
We don't need a timeframe for environmental stuff, but I guess we can use it as a timeframe for how combat applicable any of these abilities are (Well, as combat applicable as this stuff can actually be).

Theglassman12 said:
Considering how some of Ganon’s abilities don’t have much explanation (abilities I don’t know where he gets them from), it’s better to not cut corners.
Click to expand...
Funny you mention Ganons abilities lacking explanations, I'm currently working on fixing that.
 
P&A should be left aside for now, this is an AP & related stats CRT.
 
Btw Armor, can you check on the Levia and Faron’s flood recalc that was made? I don’t think we got any proper approval there, so getting that approved will get us somewhere.
 
Could I have a link? I'm usually not very good with this sort of calculation but who knows.
 
Approved it, though there might be some minor mistakes I missed.
 
The medallion one needs to be calced within it's own game or using statements to get around the whole scale issue, and not use a map from 25+ years later with completely different geography.
The other two, eh, they use maps and scaling from within their own game so that should be ok?
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah that's not gonna work unfortunately, the size there has its own share of issues. It's using the Skyward sword Hyrule size if I'm reading that right, when our main issue to begin with is the ludicrous changes and discrepancy in Hyrule's sizes.
Click to expand...
🔫 👀
 
well that's fine i just approved the math, logic is for the people here to discuss
 
Chariot190 said:
The medallion one needs to be calced within it's own game or using statements to get around the whole scale issue, and not use a map from 25+ years later with completely different geography.
The other two, eh, they use maps and scaling from within their own game so that should be ok?
Click to expand...
bruh why were the pages using that? the verse definitely needed this revision
 
Yeah scaling maps in one game to another probably not a good idea. For the map size in ALTTP I'm not sure how exactly we should scale it, maybe scaling the size of the map assuming that Death Mountain is 600 meters tall (I think that's the default assumption we go for a mountains height if we don't have a size for it) in the event there's no statements we can use to scale the map from. Although I'm not sure how reliably we can scale the height of the mountain to the flat ground of the rest of the map, perspective and shit makes that a bit wonky, plus the map portrays the houses in Kakariko as being roughly a tenth the height of Death Mountain so unless we assume that the average single story house in Hyrule is 50+ metres tall maybe this will be like the map scaling in Chrono Trigger where we just don't use the map at all. If there's nothing in ALTTP then maybe ALBW has something we can use to find Hyrules size, it should be fine to scale map sizes in these two games specifically since they're meant to be almost exactly the same version of the kingdom.

Push comes to shove we can get a calc that assumes the size of the storm is the same as what we use for the average storm size for our standard cape results.
 
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