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Zelda tiering and scaling revisions

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Theglassman12

Theglassman12

VS Battles
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Alright, these two threads ended up somewhat derailed as more and more and more Zelda feats are being put into question, whether it is the whole fact that the feats aren’t legit, they don’t check off the standards on the wiki, or the calcs being inflated, here’s a thread to just discussing it all and trying to rescale everything since not only are a lot of the top tiers feats are in question, but also the lower tier feats too. So here’s a list of all the current feats in the series, so let’s try to find which feats are considered legit or not and find the ways the characters scale across these games.

Not accepted feats:

Bombs yield (High 7-A): not legitimate enough.

Yuga reacting to light arrows (Not considered legit light by our standards)

Flurry Rush calc (Has a lower end calc and the higher end is debunked)

Demise making a pocket dimension (High 4-C)

wind fish making a universe (3-A possibly Low 2-C)

Vaati making a pocket dimension with a starry sky (4-A)

Zant's merging twilight realm and Hyrule

Ganon stopping the rotation of the planet in Wind Waker (5-B)

Light arrows flipping the earth in Majora's Mask

Zelda timeline split in AoC

Malladus making a pocket dimension

Accepted:

Eldin creates a volcanic eruption (8-A+)

Faron floods her entire province (8-B+)

Levia’s storm (7-C)

Link clears a storm with the Ether Medallion (recalced to High 7-A)

Hylia made an entire cloud barrier (6-C)

Bombs explosion yield (8-C+)

Dark World warped by the triforce (potentially 3-A; only scales to the Sealing War Ganondorf)

Ganon makes a storm (6-C)

Gyorg raising temperature of Termina Bay (High 6-C)

Majora making a pocket dimension with a star (High 4-C)

Dodging Guardian lasers (1.67c)

Majora's moon drop (High 6-A)

Malladus destroying New Hyrule (High 6-B)

New scaling:

Zelda 1 and 2 Link, Dark Link, Adult OoT Link, TP Link Endgame, ALBW Link,: At least 6-C+, possibly High 6-A (Via scaling to Triforce of Power Ganondorf, who's power, thanks to the triforce makes him superior to creatures like the 4 giants, who can stop the moon from crashing on termina, which yields this much power)

Four Swords Adventure Link, Minish Cap Link: 6-C (Is capable of defeating Vaati with the Light force drained from Zelda, which should make him comparable to Hylia, who's capable of creating a cloud barrier)

Spirit Tracks Link: possibly High 6-B (Is capable of defeating Malladus, who can destroy New Hyrule in a short timeframe)

ALTTP Link, WW Link, Oracles Link, and Shadow Link: 6-C (Fought an unamped Ganondorf, who's capable of creating a storm that yields this level of power)

Skyward Sword Link: 8-C+, possibly higher [Given that Ghirahim was toying with Link at their first fight and only left because Zelda and Impa left] with the Goddess sword (Is capable of withstanding bomb explosions, which yield this much power) | 8-A, possibly higher with the goddess longsword and white sword (Is actually capable of defeating Ghirahim, who's superior to the Dragons Faron and Eldin, who can cause a flood and a volcanic eruption) | 7-C with the Master Sword (Can stop the Ocular Parasite: Bilocyte, who's able to control Levias, who's capable of creating a massive cloud storm) | 6-C+ with the full powered Master Sword (Is capable of defeating Demise, who's comparable to Hylia, who's capable of creating a cloud barrier)

Child OoT Link and Pre-Master Sword TP Link: 8-C+ (Is capable of withstanding bomb explosions, which yield this much power)

Link's Awakening Link: High 7-A (Has enough magic power to use the Ether Medallion, which can clear a thunderstorm, which yields this much power)

MM Link: High 6-C (Is capable of defeating creatures like Gyorg, who's capable of increasing the temperature of Termina Bay's ocean with little effort)

Trinexx: High 7-A, possibly 6-C (Is capable of withstanding blows from the Ether Medallion and the master sword)

Shadow Nightmare and Wind Fish: High 7-A (Should be comparable to Link, who can use the Ether medallion with his own magic, which can clear a thunderstorm, which yields this much power)

Iron Knuckle, King Dodongo, Barinade, Dead Hands: 8-C+ (Comparable to Child Link, who can withstand bomb explosions, which yield this much power)

Morpha, Bongo Bongo, Phantom Ganon (OoT), and Volvagia: 6-C (Is comparable to the Master Sword)

Majora (Host possessed) and the 4 Giants: High 6-A (Can drop the moon on the land of termina, and stop the moon from crashing respectively, which yields this much power)

Majora's full power and Fierce Deity Link: High 4-C (Is capable of creating and sustaining a pocket dimension with a star inside, and his death causes the moon to vanish, the former feat yielding this much power)

Onox and Veran base form: 7-B (Onox is capable of creating thunderstorms easily, which yield this much power)

Onox and Veran true form: 6-C: (Is capable of withstanding blows from Link with the Master Sword)

Four Swords Adventure Ganondorf: 6-C+ (Should be comparable to his unamped self, who's capable of creating a storm that yields this level of power)

Phantom Ganondorf: 6-C (Can trade blows with full powered Master Sword Link)

Molgera: 7-C(Can take on Link with an incomplete Master Sword)

TP Link with Master Sword: 6-C (Wields the master sword, which can defeat Demise, who's comparable to Hylia, who's capable of creating a cloud barrier)

Argorok and Zant: 6-C+ (Should be comparable to Link with the master sword, and was amped by Ganondorf during the events of the game)

Midna: 6-C+ (Can kill Zant effortlessly), much higher in her true form and Fused Shadow state

Bellum: possibly 6-C+ (Drained the life of Tetra, who wields the light force, which makes him comparable to Vaati)

Fraaz: 8-C+ (Comparable to early game Link)

Ghirahim [Base and Partially transformed]: 8-A+, possibly higher (Is capable of defeating Faron and Eldin, who can flood her entire province and cause a volcanic eruption respectively) | 6-C with true form (Can take on Link with the full powered Master Sword)

Faron: 8-B+ (Is capable of flooding Faron province)

Demise: 7-C (Is superior to base Ghirahim and Levias, the latter is capable of creating a storm with this much energy) | 6-C (Is comparable to Hylia, who's capable of creating a cloud barrier)

Levias: 7-C (Is capable of creating a massive storm barrier)

Yuga: 6-C (Is capable of utilizing magic only the master sword is able to break) | At least 6-C+, possibly High 6-A (Is fused with Ganondorf and amped by two pieces of the Triforce, who's power, thanks to the triforce makes them superior to creatures like the 4 giants, who can stop the moon from crashing on termina, which yields this much power)

Lady Maud: High 7-A, possibly 6-C (Is superior to bosses comparable to Trinexx, who is capable of withstanding blows from the Ether Medallion and the master sword)

Guardian, Thunder/Wind/Water/Fireblight Ganon, and Monk Maz: 6-C (Should be comparable to Link with the master sword)

Everyone in Hyrule Warriors: 6-C (Should be comparable to Argorok, who's able to withstand blows from Link with the master sword)

Endgame HW Link, Cia and HW Ganondorf with the Full Triforce: 3-A (Wields and is amped by the Full triforce, which is capable of recreating the sacred realm to be a dark reflection of the user’s heart)

Gohma: 8-C+ (Can withstand attacks from child link), 6-C in TP (Is capable of fighting Link with the Master Sword)

Twinrova: 7-B (Is superior to beings like Onox, who is capable of creating thunderstorms easily, which yield this much power) | 6-C (Can take on Link with the Master Sword)

Gorons, Hylian Knights, and Gerudos: 8-C+ (via scaling to the bombs)

Ganondorf: 6-C [pre-Triforce of Power], Botched Resurrection, and Calamity Ganon (is capable of creating a storm that yields this level of power, is also capable of taking on Link with the Master Sword) | at least 6-C, possibly High 6-A [with the Triforce of Power] (Wields the Triforce of Power, which makes him superior to creatures like the 4 giants, who can stop the moon from crashing on termina, which yields this much power) | 3-A [Sealed War Ganondorf] (Was stated to have been amped by the full power of the Triforce during the Sealed War, the Triforce being capable of warping the Sacred Realm to the dark reflection of the user's heart)
 
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High 7-A bombs definitely need to go, the Phantom Hourglass bomb calc has the same issues as the Skyward Sword feats in that it uses a inflated map size, as well as several other problems Armorchompy pointed out. There's another feat in PH with bombs that was City level+ but again, inflated map size makes it way too high. I think there's also some 8-A to Low 7-C bomb feats from OOT, but iirc they're also outdated and likely need recalcs (I'll try pulling up those calcs in a little bit).

I can't remember why we treated the endless night as Ganon stopping the planet itself back when he had his 5-B rating, atm I don't see why it shouldn't be just some form of time manipulation. Link clearing a storm also got a recalc, same blog as the Levias and Faron recalcs, but Phantom Falcon pointed out it should likely be island or country level.

I have no idea if Gyorgs feat needs a recalc or no, but the feat itself should be fine to use. Although he does only use physical attacks when fighting Link, and I don't think we have evidence that Gyorgs physicals are comparable to the energy he gives off to heat the ocean so maybe that feat doesn't scale to anyone. Maybe if we don't get anything above High 6-C for other characters we could maybe scale the magical power of people like Ganondorf with the ToP to Gyorgs? I dunno.
 
The OOT bomb calculations ranged from 8-B to 8-A based on recalculations for fragmentation of rock.
 
Honestly I think tier 8 feels a lot more consistent than High 7-A for bombs and mid-tiers.
 
... How tf do you end up with 40 meters for the size of the rocks? By that logic every home in Kakariko village is hundreds of meters wide.
 
Like, I understand the logic, but at the same time, it's kinda silly to say that literally everything in those areas is scaled down for the sake of the player despite the enemies being the same size as any other area when it's so much simpler to say. "Oh hey, 5 meters wide rock. It's five meters wide."

I think it's pretty obvious by now that Zelda games don't draw things to scale, which is fine, it's a videogame, walking for five hours every time you have to get anywhere isn't particularly fun, but I disagree with using that to inflate a calculation, since just arguing "everything is the size it should be except for jabu jabu/death mountain" makes a lot more sense than "literally everything is scaled down and the world of oot is enormous"
 
Armorchompy said:
which is fine, it's a videogame, walking for five hours every time you have to get anywhere isn't particularly fun
Click to expand...
This sounds like a joke at the expense of BotW, I promise it's not

It might be a joke at the expense of The Phantom Pain, though.
 
Link clearing a storm also got a recalc, same blog as the Levias and Faron recalcs
Click to expand...

Didn’t TP have a storm calc on the same level or is that another outdated rating?
 
Yeah it did. Argorok creating a storm that was High 6-B, but that was back before we revised how we handled creating storms and using horizon distances. I don't think his storm would get beyond 7-B with our updated standards
 
I see, also should we include Malladus’ statement of destroying the world in ST? Or is that the Demise statement issue all over again?
 
I think Cal might want to comment on the High 7-A bomb stuff.
 
The former was rejected heavily, but the latter might have some hope.
 
I... seriously doubt the Light Arrows are actually turning the entire planet upside down. I thought it was just them activating some gravity manip switch.
 
Just commenting here to watch, as I've recently started to get interested again in LoZ and might help a bit, dunno.

This probably doesn't help scaling or anything, I feel even silly mentioning this, but I do remember Link in A Link to the Past causing quite powerful earthquakes with the Quake magic. Can it be used to scale to some enemies?
 
The Dark World being the size of a universe is legit for reasons I don't remember, but the warping it got to be evil just made the planet getting darker and some hax around it to mess up its population. It's not even a 5-B feat, mostly just hax.
 
No it affected more than just a planet, they always just mention the Sacred Realm being transformed into the Dark World not just a portion of the realm. In OOT there's even a statement that the chamber of sages is the only place that remains unchanged.

Although there's a decent chance it won't make anybody straight up 3-A, had a small discussion with SamanPatou about it and it seems like anyone who's owned the full Triforce never actually had it absorbed and used it to empower themselves, they always seem to have it outside their body somewhere like with Ganon in ALTTP keeping it in another chamber (And Skyward Sword makes it arguable if it's even possible to keep the full thing absorbed, it seemed to force itself out of Links body like half a minute after he obtained it, maybe this could change depending on if BOTW2 confirms if Zelda truly has the full Triforce or not but atm it's not likely).
 
I’ve asked some staff on the creations revision CRT and a couple said the Dark World feat would just be a hax and range feat rather than an actual AP feat, though if there are any additional informations on how the Dark World was made that could justify the ratings it would be nice.
 
This just popped into my head, but we should get a calc for the cloud barrier Hylia created to separate the sky from the surface world. I'm pretty sure it's meant to be on a planetary scale, so a calc for creating an entire barrier of thick clouds across the world has gonna yield decent stuff right?

Theglassman12 said:
I’ve asked some staff on the creations revision CRT and a couple said the Dark World feat would just be a hax and range feat rather than an actual AP feat, though if there are any additional informations on how the Dark World was made that could justify the ratings it would be nice.
Click to expand...
Oh. So even ignoring the possibility of nobody actually using it to empower themselves we might not even be able to rate it as AP for the Triforce itself.
 
Yeah the Hylia calc would be a necessity at this point since the pocket dimension feat isn’t gonna work for Demise. And hopefully it scales higher than the bomb calc to avoid contradicting scaling.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
Just commenting here to watch, as I've recently started to get interested again in LoZ and might help a bit, dunno.

This probably doesn't help scaling or anything, I feel even silly mentioning this, but I do remember Link in A Link to the Past causing quite powerful earthquakes with the Quake magic. Can it be used to scale to some enemies?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, the medallions are likely under stuff like the triforce pieces so it's definitely possible to scale to those if there's nothing better, but while it does use Link's mana I'm iffy to scale an item to the person using it, considering that for all we know it has the same strength no matter who uses it
 
Couldn’t it technically scale since certain bosses could survive the medallions attacks and Link could harm them with normal strikes?
 
Here's the thing, they wouldn't be tanking the full blunt of the earthquake, that's basically never the case. An 8-A earthquake doesn't even cause 9-C damage to buildings, let alone people.
 
By this same logic we can upgrade fodder for surviving attacks in gameplay tbh.

Unless we have definitive proof Link canonically used these on bosses. Like, are these medallions required to defeat bosses? That might hold weight.
 
Not quite, although you have to use a couple of them to enter the dungeons.

However, I think the logic would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the damage an earthquake would inflict on a target is actually really low.
 
Armorchompy said:
I'm not sure, the medallions are likely under stuff like the triforce pieces so it's definitely possible to scale to those if there's nothing better, but while it does use Link's mana I'm iffy to scale an item to the person using it, considering that for all we know it has the same strength no matter who uses it
Click to expand...
Definitely under the Triforce, in fact, everything is.
The only thing in the whole of the verse above it is the Goddesses, and Link that one time but that made zero ******* sense, it's been awhile, but I gathered like a good dozen statements regarding how jacked off the thing was throughout all the games and books, it's essentially omnipotent comparatively to anything else, that's how much greater it is, it's considered the greatest power of all. Forget which thread though, I could go looking again if need be.
 
If we talking medallions, doesn't one clear a storm?
 
The storm feat is also in a recalc from Cyber’s blog that I linked in the OP.
 
Armorchompy said:
Not that it changes much eh
Click to expand...
Either or. Some of the lines were in reference to the pieces, though a few were the whole of it, either way 🤷‍♂️
Though, unless I'm just tired as ****, one in AlttP makes a storm vanish right? That could be worth calcing.
Or the ice storm in Majora (imo probably above the Gyorg feat of warming up the ocean).
Volvagia's death causes an eruption that instantly ***** the giga huge cloud around Death Mountain and makes it vanish (along with a suspicious looking energy) and even knocks people on their ass in Kakariko.
Morpha has a feat like Gyorg's iirc.
Argorok storm as mentioned above.

I'll look over more feats later, there's definitely a good chunk I'm not remembering, so if we need feats we could look at those.
Theglassman12 said:
The storm feat is also in a recalc from Cyber’s blog that I linked in the OP.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's not gonna work unfortunately, the size there has its own share of issues. It's using the Skyward sword Hyrule size if I'm reading that right, when our main issue to begin with is the ludicrous changes and discrepancy in Hyrule's sizes.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
By this same logic we can upgrade fodder for surviving attacks in gameplay tbh.

Unless we have definitive proof Link canonically used these on bosses. Like, are these medallions required to defeat bosses? That might hold weight.
Click to expand...
It’s required for Turtle Rock
 
Regardless, the storm feats are probably stronger than earthquake stuff
 
Does anyone have any objections in regards to not counting the Ganon endless night feat and Dark World feat or should I label both of them unusable?
 
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