Zelda tiering and scaling revisions

[Dust_Collector]

The moon part of it no, we're discussing the clouds being moved.

 

[Chariot190]

Clouds go brrrr.
Speaking of clouds, Vaati has a country wide (maybe continent) cloud feat too.

 

[Dust_Collector]

That's from Four Swords Adventures right? Been a while since I've touched FSA, but I recall something about Vaati covering Hyrule in dark clouds.

 

[Chariot190]

That's from Four Swords Adventures right? Been a while since I've touched FSA, but I recall something about Vaati covering Hyrule in dark clouds.

Yeah.

Video.

 

[Chariot190]

Skyward Manga Demise's onslaught context (While I'm against the manga in almost all cases due to blatant disregard for canon and taking way to many liberties, the SS manga is probably like, the single manga I'm ok with using, at least for supplementary purposes, it gives context we didn't have prior and is bundled with Hyrule Historia with intent to basically shed and give context to canon. There's only really one (large) canonicity issue with it and the rest checks out so I wouldn't say it's canon but I'd say the events that took place within it reflect canonical events, as both happened in canon and this, we just don't get any details in canon).



And 3/4 **** the world statements, two of which coincide with the above actually, one for the Trident (Which coincidentally is for a weaker Ganon). Which don't really mean much on their own (Except Demise's given we know the context as seen above), just support for tier 6 is all , we can tack onto the end of their AP.

Also while we're at it, Dust, ya wanna redo that Argorok and Wizzrobe feat?
I noticed you got country lv for both which is a bit eh, seems off (Though in that same vain, KE for Calamity Ganon's cloud feat might actually be legit over CAPE so stupid ******* high cloud feats might not be lost, we could be looking at 6-B for the Calamity). Argorok is kinda weird personally, I'm not sure what the best method to use is, doesn't look like KE, but I don't think it's cape either given most of the clouds were already there. Wizzrobes probably condensation or storm stability.

---

*・コンナ体デハ 我ノ魂ハ スグニ消エテンマウ･・・
残サレタ時間デコノ世界全テヲ 滅ボシテクレルワ!!
This body...my soul will disappear soon
In my remaining time....i will destroy this world!!

Ok so the line is legit for Malladus, 100% in the original so that's aight. Issue is I don't think it's calculable. We know it'll be fast, like extremely fast, the issue is less the timeframe but how many attacks he plans on doing, which is the unquantifiable part. Unless we like just wanna say **** it and assume he was gonna raze the new world/whole world after he killed Link, and given his soul was about to extinguish and probably only had minutes to do his shit, eh.

 

[Theglassman12]

Wouldn’t the timeframe sorta give us an answer on the type of attack given he’s gonna lay waste to it all in a short timeframe?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also while we're at it, Dust, ya wanna redo that Argorok and Wizzrobe feat?
I noticed you got country lv for both which is a bit eh, seems off (Though in that same vain, KE for Calamity Ganon's cloud feat might actually be legit over CAPE so stupid ******* high cloud feats might not be lost, we could be looking at 6-B for the Calamity). Argorok is kinda weird personally, I'm not sure what the best method to use is, doesn't look like KE, but I don't think it's cape either given most of the clouds were already there. Wizzrobes probably condensation or storm stability.

Not sure if it's worth redoing the feats for Wizzrobes, they'd just be one of the standard results listed on the storm calculations page so we can just link to that. Argorok as you said is kinda weird, the clouds are already there he just makes them all thundery so I have no idea what method to use for that.

 

[Armorchompy]

I still personally don't think the Wizzrobe feat has enough evidence for scaling to physicals. Idk about Argorok

 

[Chariot190]

Wouldn’t the timeframe sorta give us an answer on the type of attack given he’s gonna lay waste to it all in a short timeframe?

Don't think so, because the timeframe is just "short", it could be one, but it could be like a dozen attacks. He has some pretty fast DPS all things considered. We could just say **** it and high end with and calc it under the assumption it's one attack tho.

Not sure if it's worth redoing the feats for Wizzrobes, they'd just be one of the standard results listed

Would it? Can't we get an actual value aoe for it? The weather system in BOTW isn't like just making it effect the whole map at once, the weather actually varies depending on your location and you can literally just like, walk out of a storm or into rainless patches if you want. It's actually a pretty based weather system. So a horizon calc isn't really that accurate to the feat at hand. I'm actually not expecting a high result, maybe not even 8-A, maybe 8-B even, if you go strictly by in game, but I think it'd serve as a good feat to scale some bosses off of that atm we have **** all for. Because we've mostly been focusing high tiers, we still need to flesh out low and mid-low tiers. Beyond like, 9-A bokoblins.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I still personally don't think the Wizzrobe feat has enough evidence for scaling to physicals.

It can likely scale to physicals, they use the same magic and wands to make their storms, and they're durable enough to withstand being blasted with attacks by the same wand and magic. Bigger issue would be whether or not it's an outlier since Wizzrobes at best are considered minibosses and are usually below monsters like King Dodongo.

Would it? Can't we get an actual value aoe for it? The weather system in BOTW isn't like just making it effect the whole map at once, the weather actually varies depending on your location and you can literally just like, walk out of a storm or into rainless patches if you want. It's actually a pretty based weather system. So a horizon calc isn't really that accurate to the feat at hand.

Fair enough, I'll quickly boot up the game and find out how far Link needs to travel to leave their storm.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean my issue is that just cause the wand is making the storms too doesn't mean it uses the same power to shoot fireballs (or ice/thunder), considering they don't appear when Link uses them to me it feels that it's a completely separate effect. Hell, maybe it's just something the Wizzrobe itself does, not the wand. The existance of magic doesn't inherently prove a universal power system or something

 

[Chariot190]

I still personally don't think the Wizzrobe feat has enough evidence for scaling to physicals. Idk about Argorok

Maybe not inherently but it would scale to magic or at least the weapon, given they do it by shooting like some lightning laser beam into the sky.
Though I will say magic and physicals can scale directly in the case of some characters, e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶b̶a̶s̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶x̶c̶l̶u̶s̶i̶v̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶G̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶b̶o̶d̶y̶ ̶e̶l̶s̶e̶.̶

The existance of magic doesn't inherently prove a universal power system or something

Depends on the game actually, in a game like WW there's a clear universal magic system and every single magical effect takes a varying amount of magical power to do and if one doesn't have enough magical power they can't complete their feat.
BOTW is a bit tough because it completely ***** the magic out, in fact, I agree, it might not even be the Wizzrobes doing the feat, it's the wand, but that still essentially means Wizzrobes given only Wizzrobes have that weapon and magical artifact/weapon scaling do be a thing (Even though it's nearly impossible to scale proply besides Master Sword>Magic Sword>Basically everything else).

Fair enough, I'll quickly boot up the game and find out how far Link needs to travel to leave their storm.

Things you shouldn't have said, now I have a few things in mind for ya to do.
You know the shrine that's in a mountain side and you gotta bomb the cliff face to get into it? Ya mind getting shots of that, it'd scale to bombs in that game, it's a pretty blatant 9-A feat we can scale to low enemies, there's a few other bomb boulder busting feats in BOTW but I think that might be the best one.

I wouldn't call it an outlier though, even in BOTW Wizzrobes aren't actually low end enemies, they're like just a step below minibosses. And in other games, they can even be temple half bosses, like in Majora. They're clearly a step below main bosses but obviously above fodder, I'd say maybe take the calc and scale that to some various bosses that apply. Then again, I'm not sure what bosses we'd even scale it to, like there's the Majora's Mask bosses, who are well beyond that anyway so it wouldn't matter, I'd have to check through the games honestly.

Also, have we looked into the oracle game bomb feat? Where they set off a chain of volcanos? That could be completely unreasonably based as **** feat, also some Zelda 2 feats could be worthwhile given we're explicitly told, even in game that the game takes place over continents. To the point it's been implied that the whole of something like Zelda 1's Hyrule or the map of Tri-Force Heroes is probably seen within the game itself, aka, Zelda 2 is canonically so big entire other game overworlds are just a tiny overall fraction of it.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Great now I'm the errand boy who needs to play the game to get pictures

That's the Maka Rah shrine right? Or was it another one, I can't remember which one required bombing a cliff face . I don't think we've looked too much into the oracle feat of bombs setting off a chain of volcanos so that should be a good feat. Also yeah the Zelda 2 world is huge, the first games map is a extremely tiny area tucked away at the bottom of death mountain and I believe the northern parts of the western continent are confirmed or heavily implied to be the kingdom from Tri-Force heroes.

 

[Chariot190]

Well first off, **** this dude for putting an early game shrine at the end of his video.
Second off, Kenai Shakah.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well there wasn't a way to get a shot where you can directly measure the hole made by bombing the cliff face to Link, but I can get a clear shot of the hole compared to the shrine doorway and a shot of Links height compared to the doorway (And another of him compared to the stand you scan the slate on). Not perfect but the shrine and bombed hole are so close together it shouldn't matter much.

 

[Chariot190]

Notably I need the thickness of the rocks, could you get a shot of Link standing next to one so I can get the depth?
Though the other ones are helpful as well.

 

[Chariot190]

On the other side of things, Gerudo is referenced as a country in the Historia and WW, could we use that?
been looking at ways to get FS Hyurule's size to get Vaati's wind manip AP, it won't be as high as Ganon's or Hylia's storm feats, but Vaati is also weaker than both so he needs his own feat atop of supporting theirs quite well.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Thickness of the rocks

Link compared to shrine doorway

Link compared to the shrines slate stand if that's better

Size of the hole left behind when the bombs do their thing

 

[Chariot190]

Based as ****

 

[Chariot190]

Palace of Winds is literally reliant on Vaati's magical power, when he goes, it goes because his strength isn't sustaining. An actual blatant sustainability feat with no mental gymnastics involved (Actually kinda has implications and sets a precedence for other feats). Probably only like 7-C to 7-B though, but it's good for a constant feat done with zero effort.
Don't know if it's worth spending a ******* day scaling the palace out though when clouds go brrrrrrrrrrrrrr and probably ends up higher.

Also, destroying that rock wall got

1.32 Tons of TNT '''8-C+''' (Rock Frag).

11.37 Tons of TNT '''High 8-C+''' (Rock V.Frag).

I'll put it in a blog soon, but mind you, that's actually a low end due to a tiny bit of it having been cut off, so 8-C+ is what we gonna end up with (Unless we go with V.Frag for some reason).

 

[Chariot190]

Also why is TP Link the shortest Adult Link, you'd think he'd be the tallest if anything but it ain't even close, the others vary between like 160cm, to a generous 5'7''. But TP Link isn't even 5ft, he's like 4'5'', dude barely comes up to Ganon's dick.
Hell Hero's Shade dwarfs his ass, and that's just the Hero of Time who clearly started drinking his milk.

Also that was topical, I mention this for a good reason, what are we gonna scale Midna and lads to, Link and Ganon are obvious, we have feats for them, Ganon especially because it's literally the same dude, but Midna, even with the Fused Shadow kinda like, literally died when she squared up to Ganon so she ain't gonna scale to him. Should I try and calc Hyrule Castle getting blown to shit for a feat for her?

 

[KobsterHope07]

1.32 Tons of TNT '''8-C+''' (Rock Frag).

11.37 Tons of TNT '''High 8-C+''' (Rock V.Frag).

I'll put it in a blog soon, but mind you, that's actually a low end due to a tiny bit of it having been cut off, so 8-C+ is what we gonna end up with (Unless we go with V.Frag for some reason).

11.37 Tons is 8-B

 

[Chariot190]

11.37 Tons is 8-B

Thought it started at 12 tons, doesn't matter much though, I doubt we're using v.frag, it's just high end frag, if that makes sense.

In other news, I managed to find backups of CT's old calcs, or well, a few. Ill slap them in a blog so we can eval them, thank **** too, I almost ended up doing one of them, and it would've been annoying if I had, only to find the calc that is sufficient enough.

Well the low-end of the Hylia calc was given the ok.
Though I don't know why the low-end in particular, if the low-end was ok, the high-end is too from a math and calc standpoint, it literally just depends on which end we're using within the context of the game and feat.
I'm going to take the fact that any end was given the ok to mean both are ok, and we can just discuss which end is more legit here and fits the context of the game (Might even be the low-end to begin with, but I just want to make sure).

Ganon's storm seems to be have context issues (I mean, the context isn't wrong, just the evaler doesn't quite know the context fully to properly eval, once that's clarified it should be good to go).

The bomb feat was also given the ok, low-end 8-C+ is fine (about what I expected, didn't come off as V.Frag, well, a bit of it did, maybe like 10% but the majority of the feat was basic frag). So that scales to a handful of low end dudes.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but isn't the state of the sacred realm a reflection of a man's heart that wields the triforce? So, Ganondorf warping it is cause he's an asshole, not cause he's strong?

 

[Chariot190]

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but isn't the state of the sacred realm a reflection of a man's heart that wields the triforce? So, Ganondorf warping it is cause he's an asshole, not cause he's strong?

We've went through this extensively, with numerous scans posted on both accounts. We've long since past that.

The warping of the sacred realm due to Ganon's malice and the sacred realm becoming the dark world due to the Triforce are two separate events.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Bump

 

[Theglassman12]

I just added the Hylia and bomb calc to the OP, is there anything else I missed or is that all so far?

 

[Chariot190]

Ganon's storm by Dust.

Ganon creates a storm

vsbattles.fandom.com

The issue seems to be settled, and I myself can vouch for it, it does indeed cover the whole of the Great Sea, doesn't matter where you go., It even extends beyond it past the horizon, though that wouldn't add much extra to it beyond a few decimal points.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright, so all we got left is the Malladus calc and the Faron and Levia’s calc. Is anyone capable of calcing the former?

 

[Chariot190]

I probably could but there's another slight issue with that.
What type of destruction? Are we talking about razing it the surface of the continent, an explosion, destroying the continent itself like fragmentation, etc?
And if we go with the world itself, same issues apply. What method of destruction? Because it could honestly be either given how he attacks.

We might just have the go with a baseline continent lv/surface of the world.
The statement is legit and all, but the details are left vague making it hard to get a concrete value. (Whether it be 6-A, High 6-A, 6-B or even lower, all end up consistent so that's a none issue).

 

[Theglassman12]

We can try and do all forms of destruction and let a calc member decide which type of destruction to use.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Ganon's storm by Dust.

Ganon creates a storm

vsbattles.fandom.com

The issue seems to be settled, and I myself can vouch for it, it does indeed cover the whole of the Great Sea, doesn't matter where you go., It even extends beyond it past the horizon, though that wouldn't add much extra to it beyond a few decimal points.

Are we sure Ganon's feat Is not just weather manip?

 

[Chariot190]

Are we sure Ganon's feat Is not just weather manip?

It's done via his magical power, Ganon doesn't "have" weather manip in the general sense, it's not like Weather Report where it's a special ability hat he uses to manipulate the weather, everything Ganon does he does via his magical prowess.

That might be a argument for Vaati tho, though it likely wouldn't matter as Vaati actively uses his weather powers to attack and the ToP would still scale above it.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

But how do we know Ganon's magic all have the same AP? He doesn't attack with the weather. What's the proof of a universal magic system or whatever?

 

[Chariot190]

But how do we know Ganon's magic all have the same AP? He doesn't attack with the weather. What's the proof of a universal magic system or whatever?

I'm damn certain we've gone through this pages ago, but anyway. To give a quick rundown restricted to just the basic overview that way I don't gotta go looking through shit while I'm busy with other stuff atm.

Anyway, they don't all have the same AP, it's dependent on how much magical energy he puts toward it, so like, the blast he slapped Link with in OOT as a child? Held back, didn't exert anywhere near his full might, Same with the storm, it's just something he conjured up with his magic out of the blue.
We know because he has the Triforce of Power, literally any semblance of magic in the whole verse, his magical power and even physical might, scales above it, that's the thing's whole schtick, he has incomparable power to everything bar the full Triforce for the most part and the Golden Gods, I'd even wager Majora but that becomes tougher to say given alternate reality stuff makes scaling concretely difficult so it's just a possibility at best.
And yes, there is a universal magical system, ESPECIALLY in Wind Waker, the very game that feat takes place, Link himself uses it even, all magical attacks draw from the same pool of magical power, whether it be ice attacks, light attacks, fire attacks, etc, with the power of them varying depending on how much magical energy it takes. The attacks that take more are more powerful as they take more magical power. A random storm Ganon and a whole other bunch of characters casually do with their magical prowess is anything but their max output, whether that be Ghirahim creating a gigafuck tornado at the start of Skyward, Ganon creating a continental storm, dark clouds that cover a country or random blood moon shit (Blood Moon might actually be a higher end feat for Calamity as that's when his power peaks but he's also the weakest Ganon so either way), Demise casually creating a storm, Vaati creating a storm, etc. And this extends beyond just storms, almost everything really, hell Vaati's castle is reliant on how strong his magic was, same with Ganon's castle.
Storms are to Zelda what busting planets are to DBZ

 

[Dust_Collector]

Zeldas magical system is about as complex as 2+2, they just use the same magic energy to do whatever.

Also @Theglassman12 small mistake in the OP:

Majora's moon drop (High 6-A)

We're not using that calc for Majora, we're using this one.

 

[Theglassman12]

done

 

[Theglassman12]

gonna try to get a calc member to get the last remaining calcs to be finished so we can move onto scaling and adding them to the pages.

 

[Theglassman12]

Got a calc for the Malladus feat.

 

[Chariot190]

Again, doesn't really work. We don't know if was through explosion (especially given he's a physical oriented character).
World in context doesn't even mean new Hyrule, in fact, the way it's worded implies everything but new Hyrule.

There's just so much details missing that I'm not sure why we're even trying to calc it.