Zelda tiering and scaling revisions

[Chariot190]

you said that OoT and WW link aren't that different, implying that they would scale in some way to the same feat.

Yeah, what's that gotta do with Gohma though? (Besides the feat being from here but you get my point).
Any semblance of scaling wouldn't be because they both fought Gohma's, it'd be for entirely different reasons that involve shit like the hero's blood, Ganon, and a slew of other reasons that Gohma has zero effect on.

OOT Link having fought Gohma is a literal nonfactor in that, you said it yourself, the two Gohma's aren't the same, which is why Gohma wouldn't scale to Gohma 2 based on being named Gohma. Which is why I said the two Links are likely not that different, not that the two Gohama's aren't, because they are different.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with a death explosion scaling to physicals, even if it is done with the same power usually this kinda stuff is presented as a "all the energy i've got left is released at once" deal, nevermind that iirc Volvagia doesn't even attack with magic but just with its fire breath and the environment.

 

[Theglassman12]

So I’m assuming Volvagia’s feat is a no go?

 

[Chariot190]

I disagree with a death explosion scaling to physicals, even if it is done with the same power usually this kinda stuff is presented as a "all the energy i've got left is released at once" deal, nevermind that iirc Volvagia doesn't even attack with magic but just with its fire breath and the environment.

Well it has to scale to him in some manner, after all it is his energy that caused the giant magical burst that cleared the sky.
We can't just ignore it and act like it didn't happen, even if it's just a "releases this much energy upon his defeat" slapped at the end of his AP, should be sufficient though i'd agree it wouldn't inherently scale to his physicals if at all.

Though as for the eruption itself, that I'm less eager to say scales at all, it's a bit weird given the whole spiritual link between it and the mountain.

Then again, Volvagia may not even need it, doesn't Morpha have a water freezing feat that's pretty ridiculous? Plus a lake draining feat? Volvagia and Morpha are pretty comparable all things considered.

 

[Armorchompy]

Again doesn't Morpha mainly attack you by smacking you with water tendrils tho? That's not really "magic"

 

[Theglassman12]

Then again, Volvagia may not even need it, doesn't Morpha have a water freezing feat that's pretty ridiculous?

Do we still allow freezing feats? I heard they were a bit contentious but I don't recall if we discarded them or not.

 

[Theglassman12]

Actually, do we really need those two feats when they could scale to the master sword? If we get the storm calcs and the farore flood calced that should scale them, unless scaling the bosses to the master sword isn't exactly legit?

 

[Chariot190]

That's, actually true. Both can take hits from the Master Sword, all things considered, the feats tehy have aren't gonna be any higher than just scaling so it's a bit redundant.

And yes, we still use freezing feats, at least for AP of the character in question, it just doesn't scale to durability of others who tank said attacks. Though this would make scaling said feat difficult but I'm sure something along the lines of "magic goes brrrrrrr" exists.

Again doesn't Morpha mainly attack you by smacking you with water tendrils tho? That's not really "magic"

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[Armorchompy]

There's a reason we call it environmental destruction, doesn't have much of an effect on people

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

imma be honest, Armor, a lot of the things your saying “don’t scale” are things we use daily to scale, and I’m not talking about TLoZ.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also Volvagia never killed Darunia. The two never fought, at least iirc.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah I think the whole “all the sages are dead” thing was like a fan theory or smthn.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m 99% sure the sages were confirmed to be dead. Pretty sure some of them mentioned the fact that they died.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This has never been stated. The most that has been stated is Ruto being unable to marry Link because of her duties as a Sage, and that none of them can return home due to being Sages (the latter being more implied than stated).

 

[Theglassman12]

I thought Ruto said she was dead? And so was Saria and Darunia?

 

[Dust_Collector]

None of the sages mention anything about being dead, they just thank Link for saving their people and for allowing them to awaken as a sage.

 

[Theglassman12]

Huh… I guess I was misremembering the scenes then. Also Dust, Cal, can you guys give your opinions on the triforce amp? Cause we might as well finish that discussion and move onto the other feats.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Whether or not the Triforce amps its owner to its full power I'll just side with what the majority goes with, I'm not too fussed about how we will treat the way it does (Or doesn't) amp people.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Triforce does amp. Yuga is like the prime example. He got amped by 2/3 of the TF and wall fully intending to become god when acquiring the last third.

 

[Theglassman12]

Triforce does Amp: Tenttaku, Cal, Chariot, DDM, Dust???

Triforce doesn’t Amp: Foxthefox, SamanPatou, Armor, Dust??

 

[Armorchompy]

imma be honest, Armor, a lot of the things your saying “don’t scale” are things we use daily to scale, and I’m not talking about TLoZ.

It doesn't make sense for a boss' magic to scale to their physical attacks if the only way they use it is environmental destruction. We can use it daily or not, if it's wrong it's wrong.

 

[Theglassman12]

@The_real_cal_howard do you have a clip of that? It’s been a while since I’ve played ALBW.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@The_real_cal_howard do you have a clip of that? It’s been a while since I’ve played ALBW.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It doesn't make sense for a boss' magic to scale to their physical attacks if the only way they use it is environmental destruction. We can use it daily or not, if it's wrong it's wrong.

For starters, environmental destruction isn’t a thing. That’s just destruction. It’s energy output that can be calculated in joules no matter what. And I’m not just referring to that. You’re completely wrong when you said that we don’t scale to death throes.

 

[Armorchompy]

For starters, environmental destruction isn’t a thing. That’s just destruction. It’s energy output that can be calculated in joules no matter what. And I’m not just referring to that. You’re completely wrong when you said that we don’t scale to death throes.

Ok, calculate it in joules, then what? They still don't attack with that.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean in the case of Morpha, he actually used his environmental destruction ability against Link

The freezing I can conceede on because we have no idea how he did it besides he did, but draining and manipulation of lake hylia would probably scale.

Also y'all really had to bump as soon as I went to work smh.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ok, calculate it in joules, then what? They still don't attack with that.

If you can put it out in a passive way then obviously you could put it out in an aggressive way.

 

[Armorchompy]

If you can put it out in a passive way then obviously you could put it out in an aggressive way.

1) No, not necessarily, it's not like Link gets to use his magic in various ways the second he gets access to it, he has to find various spells for it. Just cause you have Nayru's Love doesn't mean you can use that same energy into a beam of energy or something. So we can't assume that these bosses can do that.

2) But even if that was the case, they don't (Well maybe Morpha does that's to be seen), so there's no evidence Link could tank it, and as such it's useless for scaling unless you wanna go "Triforce of Power should be stronger" which isn't what's being discussed here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not know where the "Sages are dead" comes from; especially considering Zelda is alive. They were called to wait in the realm of the sages, but that's not really dying. Though, it is noted that Darunia was implied to be holding Volvagia off while Link looks for the Megaton Hammer, but all the other sages are mostly featless aside from Nabooru becoming an Iron Knuckle, and Zelda/Sheik having a durability thing related to Bongo Bongo.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

1) No, not necessarily, it's not like Link gets to use his magic in various ways the second he gets access to it, he has to find various spells for it. Just cause you have Nayru's Love doesn't mean you can use that same energy into a beam of energy or something. So we can't assume that these bosses can do that.

2) But even if that was the case, they don't (Well maybe Morpha does that's to be seen), so there's no evidence Link could tank it, and as such it's useless for scaling unless you wanna go "Triforce of Power should be stronger" which isn't what's being discussed here.

Nayru’s Love is purely a defensive spell. It literally has no output. But I would fully expect Din’s Fire to put out as much as an Ice Arrow. In the same way that Volvalgia’s storm clearing should be relative to its fire breath. You’re saying that things as casual as a heartbeat shouldn't scale to an energy beam because “It’s not the same”. And again, Link can tank if, because Link can tank the fire breath.

 

[Armorchompy]

Nayru’s Love is purely a defensive spell. It literally has no output. But I would fully expect Din’s Fire to put out as much as an Ice Arrow. In the same way that Volvalgia’s storm clearing should be relative to its fire breath. You’re saying that things as casual as a heartbeat shouldn't scale to an energy beam because “It’s not the same”. And again, Link can tank if, because Link can tank the fire breath.

Is there proof that Volvagia's fire breath is magic? Zelda has a lot of non-magic monsters who can breathe fire, like Dodongos for example. It could just be an inherent property of Volvagia that's completely unrelated from his magic explosion. Actually, speaking of that, is there even any proof that the explosion IS magic?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Is there proof that Volvagia's fire breath is magic? Zelda has a lot of non-magic monsters who can breathe fire, like Dodongos for example. It could just be an inherent property of Volvagia that's completely unrelated from his magic explosion. Actually, speaking of that, is there even any proof that the explosion IS magic?

If the explosion isn’t magic that just supports my point even more.

 

[Armorchompy]

No, it doesn't. If there's no universal power system then "explosion power = fire breath power" has literally nothing to stand on. Either way Volvagia fought a MS-wielding Link so it doesn't matter for scaling.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Volvagia doesn’t scale to Link though. He does, however, scale to other bosses, like Iron Knuckles or Twinrova, which matters to other bosses as they exist across other games

 

[Armorchompy]

Is there any evidence of this outside of "they should be comparable"? Because the only logic is that they all fight Link, but if we call that game mechanics, then there literally is none.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Twinrova is literally Ganon’s second in command, being his mom and all. Iron Knuckle is just a brainwashed Nabooru. Both shouldn't be comparable but superior.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, it doesn't. If there's no universal power system then "explosion power = fire breath power" has literally nothing to stand on.

I also repeat what I said about the heartbeat

 

[Armorchompy]

So a random-ass Gerudo (Nabooru, not Twinrova) is now stronger than a monster summoned by Ganondorf? Nevermind that even if we want to assume Nabooru is that strong, then it wouldn't scale to other Iron Knuckles.

As for Twinrova, she fights Link with a Master Sword in two separate games, I think it's fair to say she's comparable.

And yes I literally do think that it should not scale because it's not the same, Volvagia isn't a machine or anything we should assume to have a universal power source, it doesn't have one. Also, we're not talking about a heartbeat, we're talking about its death.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. It’s death. When it’s literally on its last legs. The literal weakest a being can be.

 

[Armorchompy]

When all of its energy is released at once, you mean? Not that it matters since, no universal energy source anyway.