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do you have that?
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Zelda tiering and scaling revisions
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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"When all was chaos and nothing yet existed, it is said that three goddesses created the world. Din, the Goddess of Power, created the land. Nayru, the Goddess of Wisdom, created order. And Farore, the Goddess of Courage, created all life. When the creators departed the world, they left behind three golden triangles symbolizing their power: the Triforce, which grants the wish of anyone who touches it. Upon their departure to the heavens, the three goddesses entrusted another goddess, Hylia, and a legion of spirits and fairies (page 22) with protecting the land they had created."
Maybe that? Well anyway this doesn't really matter atm, unless we gonna toss the millions of worlds statement but I don't think there's much issue with that atm.
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It’s the English Translation of the Golden Goddess cutscene in OOT, likely translated from the “when there was no reason in the world” but. I dunno if there are any other statements that say the same.
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Where is his from?
And I wanted to discuss is there 2-c
Did they make all the timelines at once or separately? Also just wanted to know if we had a citation if they actually did make them
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Encyclopedia. Just Crtl+F "Create".
It says they accidentally created them and is worded like it was all at once so I'd assume.
Edit: From here.
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i guess their rating is fine then, though where is it stated they made the Downfall Timeline and the Adult Timeline?
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Din
Din is a minor but important recurring figure in The Legend of Zelda series. When nothing yet existed, Din and her sisters descended upon chaos and created the universe, with Din herself being responsible for shaping the earth. Once the three goddesses had created everything they departed back...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Yeah, who knows. That I don't know, and I at the very least know enough about Zelda to be considered knowledgeable. That must come from some website or whatever because I have no ******* clue.
Ask Cal.
Ask Cal.
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Anyway, there isn't any information that I could find that really had any indication of the Sages' effectiveness outside of sealing Ganon. The Imprisoning War tells of most of the Knights Dying protecting the sages, but in terms of their combined raw power against Ganon and the Triforce, we don't have any direct statement on that. Here's the thing right? This sealing still created physical barriers separating the Dark World from the Light World. So clearly in some capacity they were able to hold back the Triforce's power in the short term. Their power combined is even able to break the barrier to Ganon's Tower. To be able to do that in any capacity is enough to at least show that their combined power can at least get into the same ballpark as Triforce Ganon. Obviously not equal, but a start.
Now combine that with a twice upgraded version of the Master Sword, which was described like this:
as well as the Moon Pearl which has this description:
and to me that seems like it could very plausibly pass narratively and logically speaking.
The sages in OOT also have a feat that's arguably universal in scale. Remember that Ganon's dark power flooded the entire sacred realm with the exception of the Temple of Light.
And they were able to contain all of that dark energy along with Ganondorf. And we know that they undid the Sacred Realm's corruption because we can literally see it back to normal when Link and Zelda are talking to each other.
Now combine that with a twice upgraded version of the Master Sword, which was described like this:
as well as the Moon Pearl which has this description:
and to me that seems like it could very plausibly pass narratively and logically speaking.
The sages in OOT also have a feat that's arguably universal in scale. Remember that Ganon's dark power flooded the entire sacred realm with the exception of the Temple of Light.
And they were able to contain all of that dark energy along with Ganondorf. And we know that they undid the Sacred Realm's corruption because we can literally see it back to normal when Link and Zelda are talking to each other.
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Ard. Gotcha dude. Adult Timeline and Downfall timeline should be common sense, given they created time altogether, and who else could’ve done it. Child Timeline exists because of time screwery so it’s exempt.
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... you do realize the fact Link dies is enough to create the downfall timeline right? Unless you're telling me the goddesses for some reason fated Link to die.
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See literally all of OOT.
We do, Link in OOT was amped by all seven as well (The game literally tells you that you added their power to your own after every temple), and that merely put him on par with ToP Ganon, and he lost in that timeline. See the issue?
That just means the Triforce doesn't have Multiversal range. And no, not happening, seven sages aren't equal to the full might of the Triforce, they aren't even equal to a single piece as seen in other games. You're effectively putting the seven sages above themselves here, basic circular scaling. It's evident it's an outlier if only because of that.
You're assuming we've agreed that AlttP Ganon is amped to begin with, that hasn't been decided yet. Not only that, who's to say ganon but the full might of the Triforce behind a simple forcefield spell?
Or it could just mean Ganon didn't put the full might of the Triforce behind a forcefield or that it's an outlier given multiple more recent showings showing seven sages being nowhere near even a single triforce piece let alone the combined artifact that is consistently and constantly stated to be the most powerful thing in the verse bar the Golden Goddesses that is so far above everything else it's considered omnipotent.
You realize this goes against what you're arguing right? The Master Sword is designed to kill Ganon, it could be normal 9-C blade, and it'd still be able to kill him. That's his whole thing, it's like kryptonite to Ganon, the blade of evil's bane. The Master Sword could be any tier and it'd still be helpful against killing any Ganon. Also the line has been retconned heavily, it's no longer true, the Master Sword was created by Hylia, forged by Link, and is resistant not to the Triforce, but to evil.
That's resistance, doesn't scale to physical stats.
Again, resistance, though not even that, all he did was create a tiny secluded area.
Again, sealing, hax. Against a Ganon who was massively weakened, was impaled through the skull, was restrained by Zelda with her comparable Magic to Ganon, and then sealed in the moment of being incap'd. (Plus the seal was broken by him eventually anyway). The sages merely sealed him away, after everyone else did the heavy lifting. BFR, you could BFR someone far, far stronger than you.
Sorry dude but this is a blatant outlier if Link were to scale physically to Ganon being amped. The seven sages don't amp nearly enough, they don't even amp to the full might of a single piece as we see in OOT (especially as OOT Link, amped by all seven, with the ToC, literally dies to Ganon in this timeline, a Ganon nigh infinitely weaker than a fully amped Triforce Ganon). They just are really, really good at sealing, and even then only with prep and help. And the Master Sword and arrows are anti-Ganon weapons, of course they'd help kill him, that wouldn't mean Link himself is 3-A by virtue of using Ganon's weakness against him the same way Batman ain't Tier 4 by knocking Supes on his ass with a kryptonite laced iron knuckle. Not only that, the rest of what you posted is more along the lines of resistances and hax resistance, which while good, and gives Link insanely good resistance to a handful of hax so that's definitely worth something, but that doesn't mean his durability or AP scales because he has hax resistance or because he has weapons that can harm Ganon in spite of his power (Which if Ganon is 3-A, it'd give Link durability negation of to 3-A anyway, but he himself physically wouldn't be that strong).
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I can agree to some ludicrous hax resistance (especially given this wouldn't even matter if Ganon was amped or not, it outright says he can resist the "golden power" via the moon pearl, so that's solid), durability negation up to 3-A (against "evil") and a few other things.
But I can't agree sages amped Link up to the point he's on par with the strongest thing in the verse by such an extent it's considered unmatched, omnipotent, and so on, especially given their other showings. And I specify the sages only, because the arrows don't amp Link at all so they're moot here and the Master Sword, while it can be inferred to amp him beyond the base Master Sword, which does indeed amp, it is still ridiculous to say it amped him to be comparable in power to the ultimate power that is second to none, over it harming Ganon because Ganon is evil and this sword annihilates evil by design.
But I can't agree sages amped Link up to the point he's on par with the strongest thing in the verse by such an extent it's considered unmatched, omnipotent, and so on, especially given their other showings. And I specify the sages only, because the arrows don't amp Link at all so they're moot here and the Master Sword, while it can be inferred to amp him beyond the base Master Sword, which does indeed amp, it is still ridiculous to say it amped him to be comparable in power to the ultimate power that is second to none, over it harming Ganon because Ganon is evil and this sword annihilates evil by design.
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I also want to point out that the sages didn't seal Ganon, the sages plus Zelda sealed Ganon, the very same sages who's total combined might amping Link, failed to beat ToP Ganon (Given Link while having been amped, literally dies against him).
Sealing very, very clearly doesn't scale to output given them amping Link who had his own piece of the Triforce, failed to beat a infinitely weaker Ganon.
And then they needed help from Zelda plus their total combined efforts to merely BFR Ganon away.
Sealing very, very clearly doesn't scale to output given them amping Link who had his own piece of the Triforce, failed to beat a infinitely weaker Ganon.
And then they needed help from Zelda plus their total combined efforts to merely BFR Ganon away.
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so for the golden sword all i could find is:
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The Golden Sword lore came from an A Link Between Worlds guide iirc, about the Master Sword becoming as strong as it's ever been. Also, the Complete Triforce does transform Ganon into a giant pig; albiet means nothing full tier wise but it's a hint about his physical strength being altered. The Triforce of Power alone was always something implied to literally amp his powers and grant him Immortality. Which I know sounds like hax mostly, but it also amps his physical strength. He was noted to be not strong enough to conquer Hyrule on his own without Triforce of Power in the Hyrule Historia back story on events before Twilight Princess, but did so easily with it in Ocarina.
So I'm leaning towards thinking Complete Triforce does amp Ganon physically.
So I'm leaning towards thinking Complete Triforce does amp Ganon physically.
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We should pinpoint the moments where characters are empowered by it in an actual way and turn them into keys for respective characters. Atm I genuinely can't remember a point where this was a thing, so please refresh my memory.
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After reading through everything since the post above (other than the Golden Goddesses' part, I'll look into it another time) I still think the Full Triforce isn't an amp. The single pieces definitely are, the full is not, despite the apparent weirdness.
Building forces is really vague and can mean anything, even just creating an army as Chariot said. The evil tribe having the Golden Power doesn't mean much either, they have the super magic relic, but it doesn't mean everyone of them is fueled by its magic, it's (kinda) like having a an arsenal of nuclear bombs on your warehouse.
The tower thing isn't useful either, as others pointed out, just sealing him away once was incredibly difficult and Zelda doubts they would be able to do it a second time.
SS Link definitely doesn't scale, the Triforce is well gone from him and we have no proof he retained that power, and this isn't supported by similar instances either, like WW where the same thing happens.
I'm iffy even on ALTTP Ganon being amped, not only because the Triforce is phisically in another room and there are no indication of it fueling Ganon, but also because of the reasons detailed by the Reddit post, which made a wonderful job contextualizing the concept and role of the Triforce and the Master Sword at the time.
About the Triforce being 3-A, I'm not sure, corrupting the Sacred Realm might not even be fully 3-A, it depends on how it was actually corrupted and if the entirety of it was, and not just the main land. Like, filling it with monsters and incapacitating all enemy forces would still count as "Corruption", even if the Triforce didn't change every single atom in the universe.
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Personally "Corruption" to me is hax like Transmutation so I'm iffy on 3-A as a whole. Could I get a quick recap of the points in the matter of it scaling?
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Triforce could potentially amp the user to being stronger than before, however it’s only shown to do that one time with ALTTP ganon, no one else has ever shown to being physically amped whatsoever.
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Yeah, Skyward Sword Link shouldn't be scaled from complete Triforce as he never really used it against Demise.
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The same applies to BOTW Zelda obviously, right?
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Sealing War Ganon is literally stated to have (or at least was going to) consolidate the full Triforce's omnipotent might into his own. He scales to whatever the full Triforce is by pure virtue of that's what said words mean.
This doesn't mean the others do though and I've agreed to as much, but in the case of the Sealing War, he pretty clearly has the full thing and it's clearly empowering him.
We've already went over the Dark World enough times, it's not just "corruption" in the sense of "lol monsters". And it is the whole Sacred Realm, it's not even the Sacred Realm afterwards. (Plus the first time through was the whole of it as stated by Mister Owl, idk why the second time wouldn't be too given the second time was the first time on steroids).
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She actually did use it. I think the issue there is more, does she even know how to use it properly? Or what it even is?
And is even the Triforce? I thought it was just hypothesized but not actually confirmed.
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What are our low tiers going to be listed as? There's a few feats that we could take a quick look at.
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im not free today to make calcs. Studying for an exam
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@Chariot190 we could scale them to 9-B at bare minimum with the bombs if we don't get a calc from that, though I do wanna ask, is Volvagia's death causing an eruption legit and scalable or not?
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Bombs are definitely at least 9-A if we recalc em. I was asking mostly because there's some nice early BOTW feats that could end up 9-A/9-A+ I think, would scale to blue bokoblins and above I think?
I think? His death is why it erupted, plus there's a huge magical definitely not natural magical burst of something upon his death that instantly clears the sky. If we forego the eruption (Im not saying it isn't usable, but I'm not saying it is, it's weird), the cloud clearing should be fine at least because that's very clearly caused and is in direct response to his death.
Though there is the fact that Volvagia is in essence the spirit of the mountain itself, so maybe his death caused it to erupt because they're spiritually linked, that would make the feat less concrete tho if we do use it
Actually speaking of mountains, isnt there a feat in Zelda 2 where Link hammers away at a big ass mountain (which lo and behold, the calc uses weird size map shit again), but maybe that's worth looking into too.
I think? His death is why it erupted, plus there's a huge magical definitely not natural magical burst of something upon his death that instantly clears the sky. If we forego the eruption (Im not saying it isn't usable, but I'm not saying it is, it's weird), the cloud clearing should be fine at least because that's very clearly caused and is in direct response to his death.
Though there is the fact that Volvagia is in essence the spirit of the mountain itself, so maybe his death caused it to erupt because they're spiritually linked, that would make the feat less concrete tho if we do use it
Actually speaking of mountains, isnt there a feat in Zelda 2 where Link hammers away at a big ass mountain (which lo and behold, the calc uses weird size map shit again), but maybe that's worth looking into too.
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Zelda: Wind Waker Feat - Gohma Wrecks Some Rock | Naruto Forums
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Zelda: OoT/MM Feats - Bit Feats | Naruto Forums
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That Gohma feat is nice though, it's 8-B early game and Class M and it looks to not be overly inflated.
Though, if memory serves, the dragon spirit in Skyward does indeed cause a volcanic eruption of Death Mountain which almost certainly scales to him. So either way, we have a legit feat of a fire dragon making death mountain go boom that scales to around the same tier of characters in verse.
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volcano feat definitely scales to Eldin, he described it as “an explosion of his power.”
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Exactly what I recalled. he even did it willingly and on a dime as well. So if Volvagia fails we have his feat which is essentially on paper, the same thing.
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At the same time, the elemental dragons are a fair bit above your standard Gohma tiers. The water dragon was capable of fighting Ghirahim, for example.
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I mean yeah, but Volvagia isn't Gohma tier either. It killed Darunia and is a mid game boss.
Hell it's the equivalent boss to Ghirahim 2.
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Just to be clear, this is scaling Wind Waker link right? not OoT link for Gohma? If the latter I don't know if I can buy it since it's not the same gohma.
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WW Gohma, though both Gohma's are the first boss of the respective games.
OOT Link has other things he can scale off, though I wouldn't say WW Link and OOT Link are that different if I had to (If anything WW Link is weaker initially given the whole blood of the hero thing).
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Yeah but they’re two different Gohmas. I don’t see how you can scale one to the other when one’s a normal spider creature and the other is a giant lava monster who dwarfs Link’s size far greater than the former.
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Ok? But literally nobody said the two Gohma's were the same or that they scale to each other?
I actually have no idea what brought this on or why you're debating this, nobody said that?
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you said that OoT and WW link aren't that different, implying that they would scale in some way to the same feat.
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