Za Huntoda vs Zeref Doragneel (Grace Period)

[DragonEmperor23]

It's not an assumption. Zeref is a Magic sensor, when his magic is gone he would know instantly. Even people who aren't magic sensors know when they're out of magic.

Would Zeref hear the Palico a km away?

 

[Theglassman12]

he's never shown with enhanced senses to the extent of hearing someone a kilometer away.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Dragon that is CIS, Zeref literally had the ability to go back in time, in which he can indeed at any point in that scene, but he chose not to just to fight his opponent. Just because you're a fictional character that built an entire empire it doesn't mean you're going to be 100% smart.

Are you going to ignore the part where I said he was a magic sensor and would know if Natsu had gotten stronger? Literally all those examples were of Zeref doing steps for his plan but now you're arguing that he would throw that away for a fight that he would know he would lose. That's extreme downplay of his intelligence.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dragon it's not downplay of his intelligence when that literally happened. Zeref stopped midway just to fight natsu. That's something he did in the story, AKA, CIS.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So at this point the argument for Zeref largely comes down to interpretting what happened and attempting to display it in a favorable manner.

Good. Good stuff.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

he's never shown with enhanced senses to the extent of hearing someone a kilometer away.

also glass nice new avi

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bambu it's actually my first avi.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Dragon it's not downplay of his intelligence when that literally happened. Zeref stopped midway just to fight natsu. That's something he did in the story, AKA, CIS.

No, I explained this. What was PIS was that he couldn't sense Natsu's new power level. He thought he was just going to oneshot Natsu again, like when he ripped out his heart literally 5 seconds ago.

 

[Theglassman12]

He didn't rip Natsu's heart out. He just punched a hole in his chest. And even then, he still was able to notice Natsu standing up and getting ready to attack him again.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So at this point the argument for Zeref largely comes down to interpretting what happened and attempting to display it in a favorable manner.
Good. Good stuff.

Unironically, this is like the third time I've had this argument/discussion and the other two were on a FT CRT which didn't even have anything to do with Zeref's intelligence.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

He didn't rip Natsu's heart out. He just punched a hole in his chest. And even then, he still was able to notice Natsu standing up and getting ready to attack him again.

My point was, he thought he was going to oneshot Natsu again. What was PIS about it was that Zeref couldn't sense Natsu being stronger than him when it is a noted fact that Zeref is an excellent magic sensor.

 

[Theglassman12]

I never said PIS, I said CIS. They're two completely different things. And Zeref running to natsu to attack him despite him literally steps away from his goal is complete CIS.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity.

PIS, short for "Plot-Induced Stupidity" is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has the chance, and that allows the hero to win, that would be an example of PIS (If the villain was just incompetent in general, it would be CIS, or short for "Character-Induced Stupidity" instead).

Zeref is not incompetent and is very intelligent. This was a case of PIS and not CIS.

 

[Theglassman12]

Zeref is not incompetent and is very intelligent. This was a case of PIS and not CIS.

You know who else is not incompetetant and very intelligent?? The Monster Hunter.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You're confusing CIS for being stupid, Dragon. Yes, he's intelligent- but that does not mean he is immune to doing a stupid thing. His character and/or personality caused stupidity, not his intelligence or lack thereof.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@glass

What does have to do with anything that I said?

@Bambu


I know, that's what I'm saying. It's out of character for him to abandon the plan that he has worked on for four hundred years, and (I would go on in various details of the things that he did but like I said I already said it in the posts above) and go get killed by his younger brother that he knows is stronger than him.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Except it clearly isn't out of character if it happened, obviously there is something to his character aside from "he is very smart".

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Like, it's incredibly out of character. Let me explain the situation more. So the time travel will literally fix everything in Zeref's life. It will bring his brother back to life, any people he killled during the 400 years will come back, and he'll get to have the life he always wanted. It will cure him of all of his problems and he understands that completely. He has worked for four hundred years to make this dream come true. He has had to do many incredibly difficult things to get this far. Again, he is a magic sensor, so when Natsu got back up, he knew that he would lose to him and lose everything he has ever worked for. Plot Induced Stupidity. For him to stay in character, he would have time traveled and be done with it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Except it clearly isn't out of character if it happened, obviously there is something to his character aside from "he is very smart".

^ Just wrote like a paragraph on how this plan being completeled is a central part of his character.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

> Insert comment about interpretation of events over what actually occurs in-character

> Insert that this is now going in circles and stuff

> Ask again whose vote got removed and why, since someone insinuated Dargoo's should be removed, yet then some other vote was removed

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's not interpretation. PIS is defined as, well I already posted the definition, but it matches what Zeref did. CIS only applies to characters that are incompetent and unintelligent, it even says so on the page. I even explained twice why it's PIS and not CIS.

The only two votes that have been removed so far have been Moon who retracted his vote and Kurac who never actually voted in the first place.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your explanations have been interpretation. As I've explained.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

If that's interpretation then wouldn't all non fight cases of PIS be interpretation?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No. I just fail to find your interpretation of events to be a good example of "this is PIS and not the character".

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So I explain what's in character and then say what makes doing this action out of character. What is unsatisfactory about that?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You explain what you believe is in character. What's unsatisfactory is that it seems this character went against that when they could have very feasibly done exactly what you say he should have done. My conclusion is CIS.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But I explain that by telling you about all the other things he has done in character. That's exactly what PIS is, when a character does the opposite of what should have happened because of the plot. If Zeref had gone through the door, then he would have won and Fairy Tail would be over. The antagonist isn't allowed to win and while that doesn't apply to all verses, Mashima(the author) made it very clear that the heroes were going to have a happy ending.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's abusing PIS. If a character does one thing, they may have a reason for doing another. PIS is when Character A deliberately acts out of character to forward the plot- CIS is when the character does something wrong because their character demands it. Wanting to fight an opponent over time haxxing them sounds, in this case, much more like the latter.

also antagonists are absolutely allowed to win even though most stories tend to be gary stu types that only let the good guy wi

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That's what I'm saying. There was no reason for Zeref to do that. The door was right there. He could have walked through. He wanted to walk through. But he didn't. That's what makes it PIS.


big fax

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

@Rein

Where does the death manip resistance come from?

It doesn't even need armor btw. Dire Miralis' glare won't do a thing no matter what armor you choose. Same thing with space-time.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

(Most Hunters see Dire Miralis' eyes before they die)

Isn't this less of a "the dragon looks at them and they die" and more of "When a hunter dies, they're probably going to see DM as like a last vision" thing? Unless most hunters die while fighting DM.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I'm pretty sure the former. They only see Dire Miralis' eyes before they drop dead. Either way, he still resist Fatalis Armor so it doesn't need armor to resist Death. Death resistance doesn't come from armor it comes from himself resisting the armor.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The armor death manips the wearer? How does that work?

 

[Theglassman12]

Likely a curse thing? Where he just isn't affected by the affects of said equipment.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Fatalis Armor users drop dead once they wear it for unknown reason.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That mental image is hilarious in a morbid way.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Reinhard Do you vote for Hunter btw? Doesn't say you've voted at all.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I like, the first one who voted. Also yeah, period's ended.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Then this can be added. Would you like me to or would you like to?

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I'm currently doing it.