Yukari Yakumo vs Terumi (Susano'o)

[The_Alpha]

It's more like you need to be at a certain level via hax. Which is technically what he is, or what the hax is, as it says on Noel Vermillion's page. There are a few characters that would qualify as this (although many of them don't have "[X Level] via hax" to their tier) on the wiki, Susano'o just happens to be one of the 5-A ones.

For example if someone had a sword blessed by a character that was 2-C that nullified hax, it could nullify Eye of the Azure. It'd be equivalent to a immortal breaker in the universe of Blazblue.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yukari effortlessly Erases his existence.

 

[The_Alpha]

That kind of reasoning sure convinces me.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

2D sealing work or just teleport like what he always do when he's in another dimension?

 

[Promestein]

Lower-dimensional sealing > Being banished to another "dimension" (universe)

 

[Schnee_One]

This is a stomp anyway.

High 4C vs 5A.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, and the Argument "He can't kill him because she can't preform the technique that killed him in the Anime/Manga" logic is so stupid, that you'd have Bill Cipher Auto Win because they can't get Bill inside their minds and Mind Wipe him

 

[The_Alpha]

That's a strawman. You can kill him without resorting to the exact same tools they had in Central Fiction, it's just that Yukari doesn't have any similar abilities and the ability he's using has power on a low 2-C scale. Unless her hax gets better feats, I can't accept it working, that'd be a no limits fallacy. He has a very specific form of immortality, and then another ontop of that, and resurrection beyond that.

I already talked about "2d sealing" earlier and not only do we not know the exact nature of 2d objects in 3d space (in the Touhou universe), they can also hit 3d objects, so it isn't quite sealing.

 

[Udlmaster]

Problem is, he has no resistance to existance Erasure, which negates most Immortalities and negastes Low-Godly Regen. And he doesn't have anything that can bring himself back from having his Boundaries destroyed and removed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't see anything letting him survive conceptual manip.

@The Alpha No reason to assume that Touhou's interpretation would be different than ours. Until we have proofs of the opposite, Yuki getting turned 2-D means he's stuck there, unable to hurt anything. Same goes for sealing him inside a story.

 

[Schnee_One]

This is a stomp anyway.

High 4C vs 5A.

^

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

AP doesn't matter much in Hax-centric match

Remember that Reinhard still stomped someone capable of one-shotting him despite his Low-Godly regen.

 

[The_Alpha]

Sorry if I'm repeating myself. I just addressed that point, 2D objects in Touhou can hit people and things as demonstrated by Yukari's only 'feat' (which is a vague feat in and of itself) of using this technique. Either the 2D object that travels along the border of the screen can still hit people or it's not a 2D object, which calls into question her ability to manipulate 2D and 3D in the first place.

Terumi has survived being erased from existence on two circumstances, one where he revived himself from Hakumen's time killer (something that destroys all the time you possess, an ability of the Susano'o Unit, this kills you off in the entire timeline and erases you from memory) and one where he was being reduced to the primordial state of sethir along with the entire universe in a massive event. He used Eye of the Azure to nullify this rewriting of the universe on himself, and using this observer, capable of telling Amaterasu off, he most likely returned to full power. As per the mechanics of observation, you have to observe yourself or you will cease to exist. In order for Terumi to use Eye of the Azure he has to constantly observe himself using one of the 3 strongest observer powers to ever exist. He got the Eye of the Azure from Noel Vermillion (who is low 2-C via hax in her last key) and should be capable of using it to affirm his own existence in the least. This means he forces himself into existence constantly with comparable power to things that can straight up create new timelines or reset the entire timeline, no-sell the erasure of everything in the universe and returning to sethir/magical element which is basically just information, the Eye of the Azure can affect Amaterasu via observation and send it out of the boundary.


In order to actually defeat Eye of the Azure, Power of Order had to be used, an ability that scales to counteract the chaos in ther world. Susano'o was basically peak chaos, and the way to counteract it was to use Power of Order to observe Terumi instead of Susano'o, then they attacked his soul with conceptual level soul manipulation (Ragna) and he still didn't die. It should also be mentioned that Noel handled Hakumen's attacks without serious damage due to this same ability back in Continuum Shift.

Susano'o's immortality via observation isn't standard immortality, it's rooted in reality warping and is plenty of bullshit since he can keep it up past being erased from existence as demonstrated against Hakumen. Really, his immortality is far more similar to something like SCP-682, except it's affirmed by a weaker low 2-C level power instead of 1-B and it affirms his existence instead of preventing him from dying.

The fight should be easily predictable for Terumi because he can observe the possibilities of the fight, back in Continuum Shift he observed every single possibility of the (drum roll) continuum shift and became precognitive to some extent. This time the fight is happening in a void with only 2 actors, rather than several hundred with cities and such to be taken into account.

Furthermore, an observer can alter the timeline by observing possible events that can occur, thus making them exist. This is how Takamagahara kept the loops relatively different, with some interference from resistant actors too, until Terumi (who was partially immune to their phenomenon intervention) got the anti-observer armanent and prevented them from acting. By factor of having an observer power, he might be capable of doing similar things. This is reasoned conjecture however.

 

[Promestein]

"one where he revived himself from Hakumen's time killer (something that destroys all the time you possess, an ability of the Susano'o Unit, this kills you off in the entire timeline and erases you from memory) and one where he was being reduced to the primordial state of sethir along with the entire universe in a massive event."

More Regenerationn than resistance but relevant regardless, yeah

His immortality seems like Type 8, and due to being reliant on a far stronger being such things are generally disabled in versus threads, IIRC

 

[The_Alpha]

For Susano'o it's not really reliant on far stronger beings (Noel can't do shit against him with her hax by the way) as the ability is internalized, since he had fused with Noel, which is the instance of Susano'o that exists on Terumi's page, the one that absorbed Noel. He has the Eye of the Azure pretty much.

A comparison would be with Terumi's other vessel, Hazama, who has/had(?) a lifelink with Noel throughout the series that would keep him alive in case they didn't die right at the same time, he had to rely on Noel's existence for it to work. And Noel has the observer immortality ontop of it, or at least should, since she couldn't cease in the story. That'd be a valid example where it could be disabled, but for Susano'o it's not like that. Even Takamagahara wanted to make use of Eye of the Azure, so it's an ability to be gained.

 

[Udlmaster]

His power comes from the Concept of Fear, so Yukari would figure this out since she's easily smart enough to figure it out or could use her Clairvoiance, most of all because Susano'o's attacks cannot even Harm Yukari, then she'd Manipulate the Concept of Fear making him useless and then one shotting him.

 

[The_Alpha]

False, due to having absorbed Noel Vermillion he will always exist, Noel Vermillion makes use of an ability called Eye of the Azure, which uses observation, which requires willing yourself into existence constantly. Observation can be maintained during and after an existence erasing attack,

I'd also need actual feats where Yukari manipulated fear like that, if you were looking at it from blazblue's perspective, where everything originates from the boundary which is by itself a place of infinite information and magical element, such things would require feats on scales she has never performed.

 

[Zeldasmash]

Looking at their attributes, Susano'o is resistant to most of what Yukari has.

Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation = Susano'o is immune.

BFR = The Susano'o Unit can resist BFR (Hakumen managed to resist BFR at 20%. Pretty sure Susano'o, who is always at 100%, can resist BFR).

Intangibility = Susano'o can go intangible and exist outside the realm of reality with ghost.

Conceptual Manipulation = Susano'o is immune to Time, Spatial, Soul, Mind and Probability Manipulation and is immune to Reality Warping. Not sure if Conceptual Manipulation will do anything here, though admittedly I know very little about conceptual manipulation.

Time Paradox Immunity = The Susano'o Unit can erase you from timelines without causing a paradox so Susano'o doesn't care for this.

Resistance to Death Manipulation = See Time Paradox Immunity.

Sealing and Existance Erasure are probably the ones that give Susano'o trouble, however absorbing Noel and making him always exist should help him deal with Existance Erasure. Not sure about Sealing though (though if Azrael can break through a dimension with his bare hands and Susano'o is stronger then him, maybe he can do something).

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Can we just close this? About one, maybe two, people disagree with the result and keep saying the same thing. Would save us a lot of trouble.

 

[The_Alpha]

I'm still of the mind that it's either victory or inconclusive for Susano'o because of the things I've already outlined. I also don't think Yukari has the right feats for her abilities to tangle with his strongest hax. I'm open to reasoning if feats were actually provided, which would ascertain the capabilities of certain hax rather than just writing things off as all powerful because they have them on their profile.

 

[Zeldasmash]

I think we should close this and re-open it to continue discussion. Unless people want to reach a conclusion.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Nah, just don't even open it. Only two people argue otherwise, and someone already points out this level of scaling breaches the rules. Just close it.

 

[The_Alpha]

I've done nothing but stick to the feats I remember and the things on their pages. I'm not angry or anything, I deliver information so people can be convinced to support my position.

That said, if you wanna close it, go ahead. But I expect you to actually support your position.