Yukari Yakumo vs Kharn the Betrayer

[LobsterFiend]

@EliminatorVenom But this is with speed equalized so she really only needs a way to figure out a way to beat his bolter and durability.

 

[Aparajita]

The Collar works like this. If Kharn is hit / attacked / etc by something that Khorne believes is "dishonorable" then it won't harm Kharn, it will be absorbed by the Collar. This included the reality warping of Lords of Changes that can make stars explode and reality warp at least planets for ***** and giggles.

 

[Andykhang]

^So yeah... indirect damage still work. If she used it to augumented herself, it still work. If she used it to make the counter-weapon, it still work. If she summon the entire moon and then pushed her back into it, it still technically work.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

^So yeah... indirect damage still work. If she used it to augumented herself, it still work. If she used it to make the counter-weapon, it still work. If she summon the entire moon and then pushed her back into it, it still technically work.

What would Yukari even use to augment her strength that drastically beyond Kharn's durability? The abilities she wouldn't be able to use?

 

[Lina_Shields]

With regarding to Yukari's striking strength, her strength is rated at Class TJ+ via scaling. Which isn't very high compared to Kharn's Class NJ+.

I think Yukari would pretty much be helpless if her physical abilities can't match Kharn's, and since Kharn's necklace renders most of Yukari's hax useless I don't see many options for Yukari.

Edit: Also, if range is an issue for Kharn, he always has his Plasma pistol, although I'm not sure if Khorne's influence extends to Kharn's plasma pistol, which Yukari may be immune to. Still, A good slice from Gorechild will train Yukari's soul and put her down.

 

[Andykhang]

What would Yukari even use to augment her strength that drastically beyond Kharn's durability? The abilities she wouldn't be able to use?

Entire planet they're standing on, for example (plus the environment around her that just teeming with stuff)? And again, Khorne doesn't feel like it would be unfair yet until she does it. Well, I don't know if she could do it fast enough though, or if Khorne would see that as fair even though technically Kharn is also borrowing power from the surrounding.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Entire planet they're standing on, for example (plus the environment around her that just teeming with stuff)? And again, Khorne doesn't feel like it would be unfair yet until she does it. Well, I don't know if she could do it fast enough though, or if Khorne would see that as fair even though technically Kharn is also borrowing power from the surrounding.

Kharn isn't borrowing power from his surroundings. He'd likely fight with his own two hands if Yukari requested it and also fought fair. Khorne is just shutting down things he views as dishonorable in a duel.

Like if you were in a swordfight, and all of a sudden tried to pull a gun, that's the kind of thing Khorne would prevent.

 

[Andykhang]

^Yeah, but isn't part of his power and weapon come from Khorne? And would I be wrong if he also need food and drink?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Kharn's blessings that nullify what Khorne deems unsportsmanlike come from Khorne, and much of his daemonic protection is often strictly against that. The vast majority of Kharn's power is his own. Gorechild's soul-eating is more a property of the axe itself, and unlike with say...Abaddon's daemon weapon, we don't really know when or why it became possessed except for the fact it was sometime after Kharn refurbished it and started using it.

He doesn't need food, water, or sleep. Even regular space marines can fight for more than a week without stopping or requiring nutrients, and Kharn likely has no need for even the slightest bit of them whatsoever, as he doesn't seem to have ever stopped his rampage in what is literally more than 10,000 years.

 

[Andykhang]

^Sooo... where does he get the force he needed for eternal battle?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

^Sooo... where does he get the force he needed for eternal battle?

Himself, most likely.

He literally got up from being dead by having blood fall on his corpse, and this was before Khorne took him on as his champion.

 

[Andykhang]

Live on by the blood of your own enemies... just how hardcore is the Warhammer universe anyway?

Anyway back on track, if she want to destroy him. She would have to convert 2.01 * 10^13 kg of mass into energy, which is pretty much 2 Rosetta's comet asteroid without even counting their momentum. That really is feasible for her term.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Depends entirely on who you are.

That's just the energy that would be necessary to do noticable damage to Kharn. Killing him is an entirely different matter.

 

[Andykhang]

^That just called on for more rock, then. Specifically, if she want to destroy the planet, she's only need to eat 2-300 more of such comets. Or if she want to be clean, 951 Gaspra, the first asteroid ever to be closely approached when it was visited by the Galileo spacecraft, would be way enough.

 

[FateAlbane]

^ Not taking into account that Kharn wouldn't simply remain standing and kindly wait for yukari to fly like she wants, much less for comets to be thrown at him, I see. She throws a comet at him? I can see Kharn either dodging or outright busting the comet before it reaches him. Or do you think he'll literally see Yukari open a gap away from him, let the comet fall on him and think "Oh hey, that's shiny. I think I'll get hit despite having good speed, being a master of war and having moon lvl AP and Dura."

EDIT: And before you say speed is equalized, remember that Yukari's speed is Relativistic with SoL reactions, while Kharn has FTL reactions and combat speed. Whatever the value you choose for this equalization, it's still far more than necessary to react to an actual comet, as it's low-end MHS+ (on the high end of a comet speed, which is around mach 1399, give or take).

 

[Andykhang]

^Not throwing the comets, eating the comets, Galactus-style. Then using it pure nutritional value for a healthy, healthy fight.

 

[Aparajita]

What would Yukari even use to augment her strength that drastically beyond Kharn's durability? The abilities she wouldn't be able to use?

Wouldn't work. Khorne only allows Kharn to fight "fair fights" he's survived explosion, bio-bombs and shit like that because Khorne was like "lul not honorable"

 

[FateAlbane]

@Andy Are you telling me Yukari will keep "converting energy" out of nowhere, like Galactus, and using that for self-augmentation until she has enough power to win?

... ...Huh.

That's like saying because Jasdevi has imagination materialization, when he said "I materialized the most unimaginably strong body!!" we should say he became Omnipotent or Tier 1. Or that Gremmy should be able to become stronger than anything because why not? Despite never showing anything of the sort, his power has enough versatility for that.

 

[Aparajita]

He doesn't need food, water, or sleep. Even regular space marines can fight for more than a week without stopping or requiring nutrients, and Kharn likely has no need for even the slightest bit of them whatsoever, as he doesn't seem to have ever stopped his rampage in what is literally more than 10,000 years.

Yes this is Warhammer Fantasy not 40k but it states, "Unlike those of the mortal realm, of which they were once members, Chaos Warriors are nourished by the sheer carnage of battle. This means they do not need food, drink, rest or any other such restraints. This makes them all the more reliable on the battlefield, a valuable asset to the forces of the Chaos Gods that they worship."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I kinda lost count on the tally...

 

[Andykhang]

@Fate:She could convert matter into antimatter, she could shift the boundary between particle and wave, she seemingly have unending amount of resource in her gap-ket. Why wouln't she turn matter into energy, especially if you consider a youkai body could already done so?

 

[FateAlbane]

@Cal The ones I'm sure of are:

Kharn: Me, Azathoth, EliminatorVenom, Lina Shields

Yukari: Andykhang

There may be others but I'm not REALLY sure about them. Don't wanna assume anything.

 

[Andykhang]

Wouldn't work. Khorne only allows Kharn to fight "fair fights" he's survived explosion, bio-bombs and shit like that because Khorne was like "lul not honorable"

And again, indirect mean still work. More so if she declare to "fight with all her power for a fair,physical battle."

 

[FateAlbane]

Because she never used it in that way, that's why. That's my problem with speculative powers. If we apply the ENTIRE range of a power to a certain character despite said character never doing anything of the sort, things get out of control. My above comment shows very well the problem with that. That sort of thing - using the power in a way completely different from what the character has been shown to - is hardly allowed for any character out there.

Or else we'd just say Yukari messes with the boundary between her dimensions and becomes tier 1, utterly stomping Kharn and going after Khorne for messing with her powers. That's faster.

 

[Andykhang]

^It isn't as if the fight isn't speculative enough... and I have basic for what I said anyway: The youkai, and abstract being (in Touhou) in general's already living on an abstract diet . Forget the whole "something in,something out" for a moment, how would an abstract body be able to digest food without the content to become something abstract as well? More over, she could control the boundary between form and emptyness, reality and fantasy, and human and youkai already, meaning she's used to turn something solid into something abstract, like energy.

 

[Aparajita]

If Khorne believes that anything Yukari throws at him is dishonorable, then it will be absorbed and negated by the Brass Collar with the extreme exceptions of planet busting etc.

Also, i'm voting for Kharn for the obvious reasons of the Brass Collar being bullshit.

 

[Andykhang]

^But he isn't as much of a bright cookie himself, is he (seriously, i don't know much about the WH40k)? And "extreme exceptions" eh?... Yeah, a bit of comets and asteroid being converted should do the trick.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Andy Sorry, but there's a difference between hypothetical situation and a speculative one.

One thing is to put two characters to fight with what they are shown to have and go from there. Another is to say "because character x has a certain power listed, he can use it in every (im)possible way out there". Say that a character has space manipulation. If we go with the entire range of space abilities he should have... Just to list a few.

Distance Manipulation, Teleportation, Infinity Supply, Spatial Flight, Conscious Spatial Awareness, Spatial Displacement, Matter Annihilation (on the quantum lvl), Dimensional Manipulation (limited to space as a whole), Space Compression, Spatial Constructs, Spatial Duplication, Spatio Telekinesis, BFRing to whatever place in space he desires and so on.

...When said character may very well have been shown only to compress space here and there and that's his limit. And you're clearly ignoring everything Kharn might do in the time Yukari is thinking on doing... Whatever scenario you're thinking of. EDIT: In b4 Moon/Planet lvl Yukari via self-power augmentation.

But I digress. I'll give you one hundred replies and you won't be convinced, so I'll just let bygones be bygones and stop here.

 

[Aparajita]

^But he isn't as much of a bright cookie himself, is he (seriously, i don't know much about the WH40k)?

Do you mean Khorne or Kharn? Khorne is an outerversal deity. Kharn is a legendary space marine that operates with tactical skill and knowledge of thousands of years and most of that in conflicts.

 

[Andykhang]

^Khorne, and if I remember correctly, he valued fairness and violence above all right? That would create bias, and such create flaw that thing would be permitted "as long as thing are fair". No way Yukari wouldn't just ask for mid-fight preparation with the excuse of "wanting to fight with my full strength, or my honor is forever lost" or something. (that wouldn't count as "prep-time" before the match right?)

 

[Aparajita]

^Khorne, and if I remember correctly, he valued fairness and violence above all right? That would create bias, and such create flaw that thing would be permitted "as long as thing are fair". No way Yukari wouldn't just ask for mid-fight preparation with the excuse of "wanting to fight with my full strength, or my honor is forever lost" or something. (that wouldn't count as "prep-time" before the match right?)

Here's the quote for the Brass Collar, "If it does not fall under honorable martial combat, Khorne will prevent it, forcing Kharn's enemies to face him on an equal playing field."

It says nothing about "fair", Khorne does not care where the blood flows as long as it flows. He frowns upon magic, but is delighted by slaughter.

If you had a gun that destroyed matter and shot it at Kharn, the Collar would prevent it from affecting him, but if Kharn walked up and punched you in half, Khorne would giggle.

 

[Andykhang]

@Fate:"And you're clearly ignoring everything Kharn might do in the time Yukari is thinking on doing", the answer for that is that Yukari wouldn't be stupid enough to allow that, and we kinda agree that she could keep this on for a long time anyway. Also I think Form and Emptyness would be indicated enough that she could do that already. (since Form and Emptyness ~= Form and Formlessness= thing already said)

But well, I would said no more too. Our opinion is different and unchanged right now.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Aparajita Figures. The good counter for the anti-hax collar is no hax at all. Like Goku or Saitama.

@Andy "and we kinda agree that she could keep this on for a long time anyway. " ...Putting words in my mouth. You think she has a chance of making this last long. Not me. I'm fine with that. And like I said, sure, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Andykhang]

snip

More so for him to accept this in the sense of honor (though I guess honor in killing and honor in fighting strong opponent is different, and Khorne is more of the former than the later).

 

[FateAlbane]

Anyways, just to help Cal, I'll keep track and put the current votes here:

Kharn: FateAlbane, Azathoth, Lina Shields, EliminatorVenom, Aparajita (5)

Yukari: Andykhang (1)

Others: Lobsterfiend seemed to be leaning for Yukari at times, then Kharn at others, but not sure.

 

[Andykhang]

@Aparajita Figures. The good counter for the anti-hax collar is no hax at all. Like Goku or Saitama.

Goku have Ki, and that would count as magic though. Saitama isn't like that, I agree.

Edit: In fact, if Saitama live in the WH40k verse, he would arguably be the most powerful of Khorne's devotee, while also not the most devoted.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I think what FateAlbane said makes sense. If a character has a specific ability, we should only consider the abilities and methods that he/she has directly shown in that series. Anything else would just be speculation.

For example, Six Paths Madara would only be able to use the abilities that he has displayed within the series. He wouldn't be able to use Pain's abilities even though both Madara and Pain have the Rinnegan.

Edit: Couple questions.

• Has Yukari directly displayed any mass-energy conversions of materials in the series?
• Would Khorne's amulet cancel just hax-related abilities, or would it cancel out indirect attacks as well due to it not being considered honourable?

 

[Andykhang]

^...True that. Curse you, direct proof-based Logic!!!

If that out of the way. That would leave Yukari with throwing antimatter or make antimatter-based weapon to deal with him, I guess? She doesn't even needed to aim at him, but rather the ground below

 

[Lina_Shields]

Even if Yukari did throw anti-matter or use anti-matter weapons, I wonder if Khorne's amulet can cancel it out, since it is not considered a direct physical attack.

If we go by Aparajita's statement above, I think anti-matter attacks wouldn't work due to Khorne's amulet either.

 

[FateAlbane]

Yeah, Aparajita kinda said a matter destroying gun wouldn't work. Antimatter should work pretty much the same.

Edit: Also, to answer the questions...

• 1. Not really.
• 2. Don't know. Azathoth or Aparajita would know better than me.