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Yujiro vs Ikki

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>Both have precog

Yes but Ikki's precog far dwarfs that of Yuji

>6th sense

Ikki's 6th sense makes him see visions of the future

>Know all martial arts

Yes but Ikki perfects things in every way possible and he's a sword user giving him a natural advantage over Yujiro who fights hand to hand.

>Can copy and improve techniques.

Pretty sure Ikki's copy is better

>Ogre Physiology counters Trackless step

Why doe?
 
Ogre Physiology only has a physical amp and an ability which allows you to attack in 0.5 secs of being unconscious. Not seeing how it counters effectively becoming "useless information" to the brain and moved to the subconsciousness.
 
I have a very important exam to do rn but i'll awnser in 5 to 6 hours
 
After reading the blog, I can offer up several rebuttals

Trackless Step is good but Ikki himself was able to see through it before he could adapt to it, meaning it's not infallible. Yujiro shouldn't have too much trouble getting past it.

Ikki seeing 100 steps ahead is taken out of context. One, it's said by a commentator, a person who's known to hype things up. And two, it's explicitlu said that he sees that far ahead because it's Stella, the girl he knows inside and out because he knows her insides amd outsides.

The precog is legit, but it gives him a flash of the future, and when he did it, he was woefully unprepared for it, as he miscalculated Stella's strength and he would've easily died if it wasn't for that vision. He's not Xatu with it.

...even after reading that blog I'm not entirely sure how Perfect Vision works. However, it's very explicitly said that it takes Ikki a whole minute to learn someone else's techniques, and Stella having her techniques so fine tuned made him take a while two minutes thirty seconds. Yujiro is >>>>> Stella when it comes to skill.

Ikki has really good timing feats. The best one I saw on the blog was where while blind, he was able to calculate how long it'd take bullets to leave their chamber when shot at him so he could dodge perfectly.

There's also the fact that besides Edelweiss, nobody in Rakudai approaches Yujiro in skill that Ikki fought.

Oh and the "thousands of years in an instant" growth thing was an obvious hyperbole/flowery language statement in the blog. And it's never said that Ikki mastered all martial arts. It's only stated that he knows many martial arts. It might've used mastered instead of many, but it didn't say all. Finally, I didn't see anything about him taking one look and knowing everything about the style of fighting the opponent has. If it's the Ayane thing, it's taken heavily out of context.
 
Not really giving an argument for Yujiro as much as I'm saying that some things argued for Ikki aren't arguments here.
 
No one's claiming it's infallible. It requires you to be able to focus on your subconsciousness and Ikki being able to see through it doesn't mean Yujiro can.

I mean why would it be hyperbole? Against Edelweiss who was much faster than him he could see 3 or 4 moves ahead. Edelweiss at that point was at least relative to Ikki in skill if not more skilled. So Ikki seeing hundreds of moves ahead of Stella isn't too farfetched considering the gap in skill between Edelweiss and Stella. This is with muscle prediction though and I agree it most likely won't be to that extent with Yujiro.

Ikki was able to copy Edelweiss' sword style and martial art whilst unconscious the instant he saw it. His Blade Steal and Perfect Vision improves as the series continues.

Perfect Vision is just seeing what the opponent will do due to their identity in a nutshell.

It wasn't "thousands of years" it was "decades". I don't see how the statement is hyperbole so could you show that. He hasn't mastered all martial arts but he is a "universal" martial artist.
 
I was talking specifically skill wise and I was going for the lowest end possible for her skill. She was faster, stronger and had dual wield so yeah ik that already.
 
You'd have a point if it wasn't Ikki's first time seeing the technique. If Ikki at his first exposure could read the technique like a book, then Yujiro "lolglance" Hanna can do the same.

Because one, it was a commentator, two, Ikki had been surprised during that same fight and three, even if it was one hundred percent true, it's outright stated that the only reason he can read her so well is it's because it was the girl he's been f***ing for quite a while by this point.

I'm still gonna need more context on that, as I don't remember him learning her stuff while unconscious. Even then, it seems like a general inconsistency to previously established powers.

What other instances of Perfect Vision does he have other than the Archer dude? That's the main one I see focused, and it requires him to be turned into Swiss cheese before he could read well enough.

"They were improving each other at terrific speed just now.

They just made decades worth of progress walking a path in an instant.


And the result… Another One has arrived."

Without context this is just flowery language.
 
Ikki can tap into his unconsciousness, that's why he can do that. Yujiro to my knowledge can't.

The comentator is actually a top dog in terms of fighting capability, that's stated for a reason because it basically means his word is trustworthy. And the 100 steps ahead is obviously true, but you still have "i can see all posibilities" stated in the very first time he used Perfect Vision.

Ok, i don't see your point on the precog. I explicitly mentioned "when he's in serious danger".

No, it takes him a whole minute in like volume 1. The very first time in the series, not after he's skilled his way to oblivion. Considering he understood Trackless Step the moment it was used and used Edelweiss' style against Edelweiss (so he copied her style and used it against her in less than 1 minute, and that was Edelweiss' style which boasted of being uncopyable by every other person)

"Nobody besides Edelweiss". Well Tojirou Nangou, Fu Xiaoli are other skill god tiers and even Stella is actually comparable to Yujiro.

The "several decades in an instant" is "not" a hyperbole. He reached the end of his own fate in that moment, having grown that much was a given otherwise he wouldn't have reached the peak he was allowed to reach.
 
You have to prove that the statement isn't hyperbole. It being fate based doesn't change that and I'm not the one who has to prove a negative.

You'd also have to prove that he other dudes have comparable skill to Yujiro.

Trackless Step is a technique, not a style.

Commentators being good at knowledge doesn't change the fact HST their job is to hype people up. The countless Smash commentators know what they're talking about, but they'll still hype up MangO or ZeRo or Leffen or Armada or etc.

Ikki could after he learned the basics of the techniques. At the time he just saw through the move.
 
No it just speaks for Ikki's keen sense it can't "scale" to Yujiro at all.

There's always authorial intent in a statement regardless of which character says it. Yeah I know that and admitted that it wouldn't be to the same extent as Yujiro but my reasoning still stands.

It isn't inconsistent you're comparing a Ikki from the literal start of the series to a fight that occurred 4 volumes in then implying he couldn't have progressed in that time. Should be in the blog somewhere.

Yes he used it against Edelweiss and various others.

But all of that was an interaction Ikki Kurogane had foreseen. He drove her off, and all of her cross-like attacks. For Ikki who had the vision of both eyes stolen away, not a bit of agitation was in him.

How? All of that was already things he didn't need to see!

I can't see the swings, but I can see through the muscles moving her body!

Edelweiss's breath. Swordsmanship. Tempo. Footwork―

It was the peerless ability of insight, stripping bare the essence of the opponent's habits through the information he gained from the opponent while fighting.

Perfect Vision―using the asset he had besides sword technique, the Worst One saw through Edelweiss's own technique. So he didn't need vision anymore. Because even without something like vision, he could predict two or three moves ahead of his enemy!

He just needed something to judge his opponent off to use Perfect Vision. In the Archer case it was his arrows. He couldn't see the Archer, smell the Archer or perceive him with any of his senses. So it wouldn't be the same case with Yujiro.

I don't see how that's flowery language.
 
Also no he wasn't unconscious when he copied Edelweiss's technique.

"Edelweiss's blade had been so swift that his eyes had failed to even catch its afterimages, but he had just barely been able to read her strokes from her body's movements."

And it's stated that he still needs to see the technique to steal it, even much later on, let alone the whole style.

"A knight of Ikki's caliber could trace that exceptional technique in their subconscious minds after having seen it but once."
 
I also highly doubt Edelweiss is as skilled as Ikki, otherwise there'd be no way for Ikki to read her while blinded.
 
"There's always authorial intent in a statement regardless of which character says it. Yeah I know that and admitted that it wouldn't be to the same extent as Yujiro but my reasoning still stands."

No. No double standards. Countless verses have had the authorial intent statement denied and Ikki won't be any exception. Heck, Cell's solar system level statement took aeons to accept.
 
good lord this thread is a clusterfuck

what exactly are the arguments for Ikki and Yujiro? Btw the reason that Trackless Step won't work, iirc, is because Yujiro has countered the .5 Second Punch, which is basically an offensive Trackless Step.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
>The whole point of edelweiss is to be the peak of skill in rakudai

>She's not as skilled as ikki

Oke bro
Click to expand...
If the literal peak of skill in the verse can be read while the person she's challenging is blinded, even when she has the statistical advantage, that's pure bad writing.
 
The real cal howard said:
I also highly doubt Edelweiss is as skilled as Ikki, otherwise there'd be no way for Ikki to read her while blinded.
Click to expand...
No, she is, very much so.

Ikki not only comments that her stance is practically flawless compared to him, but he is constantly learning from Edelweiss.
 
Ok so

Edelweiss > Ikki but Ikki >= Edelweiss

10/10 scaling. Why is this even being used when it's so blatantly dumb?
 
Yes because by all the logic in the world:

Being more skilled than someone makes you immune to practically every possible skill ability ever known to ficition.

Yes, very VERY smart. That's totally how skill works.
 
Time gap. Ikki was less skilled when they first encountered one another, he got much better later.
 
Anyways

Trackless Step: Ogre Brain gets past this as already stated.

Phantom Form: Yujiro would sense that he should really not let the sword touch him and dodge.

Perfect Vision: afaik Yujiro's analysis is better and he's fought people who can literally read the electrical signals in his brain. It'll definitely help, but it's not the ultimate winning ability.

anything else?
 
1 minute time limit which Yujiro is aware of.

Question, can this Ikki use Rasetsu after using Shura?
 
That's definitely a good one. I don't remember if this Ikki can attack without hitting the air like Edelweiss, but if it isn't he's kinda ****** because of Xiao Lee.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Anyways
Trackless Step: Ogre Brain gets past this as already stated.

Phantom Form: Yujiro would sense that he should really not let the sword touch him and dodge.

Perfect Vision: afaik Yujiro's analysis is better and he's fought people who can literally read the electrical signals in his brain. It'll definitely help, but it's not the ultimate winning ability.

anything else?
Click to expand...
Countering the fact that the human body has a forced 0.5 sec unconscious doesn't mean he doesn't have an unconsciousness. False equivalency. Trackless Step still works.

Again wrong, the sword itself is magical and it's not dangerous unless it hits a vital spot. There is no danger from the sword as it literally doesn't damage you at all.

Yujiro's analysis is better? Huh? And reading the electrical signals can be fooled, Ikki did that in verse, Perfect Vision can't be fooled unless you literally change identity.

@Schnee

Yes, yes he can. The very first time he did that vs Touka he went from Ittou Shura to Ittou Rasetsu.

@H13

>Copied Edel's sword style

>Idk if he can attack without hitting the air

Idk can he? Take a random guess.
 
The real cal howard said:
Also no he wasn't unconscious when he copied Edelweiss's technique.

"Edelweiss's blade had been so swift that his eyes had failed to even catch its afterimages, but he had just barely been able to read her strokes from her body's movements."

And it's stated that he still needs to see the technique to steal it, even much later on, let alone the whole style.

"A knight of Ikki's caliber could trace that exceptional technique in their subconscious minds after having seen it but once."
Click to expand...
Alright my mistake. He actually did it just before he got knocked out.
 
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