YouTube Profiles Quality Control Discussion (Staff Only)

[Agnaa]

Also last time I checked Filthy Frank was in IMDb.

Please stop using IMDB as proof that a character should be allowed. ******* Rat Movie (a 5 minute video made with 3d movie maker by a popular youtuber) is on IMDB.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Just making a point that it should be noted.

 

[Buttersamuri]

IMDB is not a good note at all. Less we allow Jake from state farm a page.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Duly noted.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

So what is the conclusion here?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Avgn and Nostalgia Critic have many other aspects to their verse other than "lol we review stuff and have random shit". IIRC there was an entire short story about Nostalgia Critic coming back that was treated as a complete narrative and acknowledged previous events.

The fact of the matter is that despite them having these other elements, the primary element in their works is derivative of other works; reviewing, and as you say, "doing random shit". That, as I've preached here, is grounds for FC/OC, not VS Battles. It shows, too. Nostalgia Critic was originally a FC/OC page that was copy+pasted onto VSBW.

Claims of Immersion, Reality Warping, whatever hax that explains away these facts only manage the situation in the verse itself, which doesn't matter much to this discussion, as we are talking about the verse from a viewer/reader perspective, where the in-verse mechanics about how this reveiwer is "actually some kind of higher-dimensional space god whose reviews are them playing with fictional realities as their master and ruler" or whatever doesn't change that they incorporate elements of other verses as an essential pillar of their work.

I'll go back to my example of something posted on FanFiction.net. A Harry Potter + OC fanfiction isolated from the Harry Potter elements is still, by definition, fanfiction. We can't isolate the OC or handwave the Harry Potter stuff for in-verse reasons and call it a "valid page".

 

[Starter_Pack]

Several people have already raised these issues, and I'm here to lump in on it. Dargoo, your reasoning is very flawed and biased, especially towards the Nostalgia Critic and AVGN. Aside from the fact that they're YouTuber reviewers, there is no indication that they're a fan fiction at all. Heck, they barely ever refer to characters in their canonical sense, even when they're standing right next to them, and it's never once been used as a reasoning for scaling the Cinemassacre and Awesomeverse profiles. Just because they reference pop culture as their bread and butter, doesn't mean that what they're doing should be completely invalidated.

And another thing, stop trying to attack alternative versions of these characters, such as FotB PewDiePie. You're throwing up these profiles as justifications for your logic, when there are a ton of profiles that do the exact same thing, except for literally any other kind of media. (Case in point: Vanilla Ice (Cool as Ice))

I have something else to say later on the topic of the Markiplier profiles, but for now, I'll leave it at this.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Aside from the fact that they're YouTuber reviewers, there is no indication that they're a fan fiction at all.

This just exacerbates my issue with these profiles. You have to type in an "aside from the fact that they're Youtuber reviewers" because that's exactly what makes the works derivative of other works. You're cherrypicking parts of the fan work to make it look original.

Heck, they barely ever refer to characters in their canonical sense

Except, when, you know, they're reviewing the verse, because that's the primary purpose of their channel.

Just because they reference pop culture as their bread and butter, doesn't mean that what they're doing should be completely invalidated.

An entire verse of references is called a fanfiction. Already addressed this argument in the above comment w/South Park.

And another thing, stop trying to attack alternative versions of these characters, such as FotB PewDiePie. You're throwing up these profiles as justifications for your logic, when there are a ton of profiles that do the exact same thing, except for literally any other kind of media. (Case in point: Vanilla Ice (Cool as Ice))

They're part of the problem I'm arguing, so I can use them as examples. Feel free to disagree with me, but don't tell me I can't bring them up as I'm discussing this.

I, sadly, can't attack every profile that "do the exact same thing" in "literally any other kind of media" in a discussion on youtube persona profiles. I'm a single person, with limited time to deal with this. Vanilla Ice from Cool as Ice should be deleted, though, along with other characters where it's just the actor playing themselves for obvious reasons.

The fact that there's "a ton" of these profiles is terrible for the site, in of itself.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Dargoo

Yes, he was indeed brought here, but that was only after a rule change and a discussion. The main part is derivative from those other verses, but only because those other verses are viewed as fiction. Trying to use it to assume that it's a fanfic just because it mentions other verses as fiction is nonsense for obvious reasons.

Please stop with the strawmans. No one is arguing that the reviewers are cosmic beings. And we definitely cannot just ignore how the content works in verse, as content is what we're looking at here, not real world perspective. By that logic, we need to remove Ninjago and other verses that are built around stuff inspired by and concepts reused because "only our perceptions as the viewer matter" or things like Marvel Comics because they include stuff from other verses. Canon and actual verse mechanics as well as internal content is the cornerstone of this issue, not our opinions or "viewer perspective", especially when clearly many people see it differently.

That is quite possibly the worst analogy. Fan fiction is a site which only allows fan fiction and in that case the verse of the work is Harry Potter itself, which is not the case for anyone being discussed

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Dargoo

We definitely should not be attempting to make rules for a specific medium if that's what you're implying.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yes, reviewing a character is the point, but that's definitely not a faniction. Critique is not the same thing as writing a AU, a possible scenario, self inserts, or alternate situations for already established characters in already established verse. Those are two very different levels of interaction

 

[Agnaa]

@Yobo There is a world of difference between something like Marvel Comics and JoJo and something like AVGN/Nostalgia Critic.

The former is 99.9% its own work with 0.1% derivative work, while the latter is 2% its own work with 98% derivative work.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Yobo There is a world of difference between something like Marvel Comics and JoJo and something like AVGN/Nostalgia Critic.

The former is 99.9% its own work with 0.1% derivative work, while the latter is 2% its own work with 98% derivative work.

Except it isn't, as we've established above. 99.9% of the lore (which the reviews are not part of) comes from movies and characters and plots that are entirely original.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The argument here is that the review portion, the part that has nothing to do with lore or combat, is what makes it fanfiction. Which is foolish.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with what Starter Pack is saying here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yes, he was indeed brought here, but that was only after a rule change and a discussion. The main part is derivative from those other verses, but only because those other verses are viewed as fiction. Trying to use it to assume that it's a fanfic just because it mentions other verses as fiction is nonsense for obvious reasons.

Wish I was a part of that discussion, or had the hindsight I do now, could have hopefully stopped this earlier.

You lost me at "the main part is derivative from those other verses". Case and point right there.

But "just mentions"? What, the reviews are them "just mentioning" the verses? When they interact with parody versions of the characters, or fanon versions of the characters, it's "just mentioning"? You're downplaying how much they incorporate from other verses. In no way is this just a "comedy series that has references here and there".

Please stop with the strawmans. No one is arguing that the reviewers are cosmic beings.

Care to explain how I'm strawmanning, instead of throwing the fallacy into the discussion like it means anything?

Linguistics, though. It honestly doesn't pertain to my arguments if they're a duck writing reality with a keyboard or a magic potato.

And we definitely cannot just ignore how the content works in verse, as content is what we're looking at here, not real world perspective.

So what, a fanfic that justifies the inclusion of Harry Potter through immersion gets the pass here? This is honestly ridiculous. I don't need to understand how characters from other verses are incorporated to just say "it incorporates characters from other verses as its premise" and chuck it over to FC/OC, where it belongs.

Fan fiction is a site which only allows fan fiction and in that case the verse of the work is Harry Potter itself, which is not the case for anyone being discussed

You're seriously criticizing an analogy because it's not using terms specific to the situation itself, when an analogy by definition frames stuff from the situation in terms of other stuff.

@Dargoo We definitely should not be attempting to make rules for a specific medium if that's what you're implying.

Wow, it's not like that's something we've ever done before.

Yes, reviewing a character is the point, but that's definitely not a faniction.

This is why I didn't even want to entertain the argument earlier. You're trying to escape into linguistics, where you can carefully word the verse where "it isn't technically fanon".

It incorporates elements from other verses, repeatedly, as part of its premise. It's fanfiction.

I'd like to just say "let's not have review verses on the site at all", to make it clear and simple.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The issue is that the main part we are referring to here doesn't actually matter, because it's not the stuff that actually matters for the wiki, is not part of the lore, and is not even treating it as fiction.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It's a straw man because you are continuously stating that we are trying to justify it by saying reviewers are cosmic beings, which is not what we are saying.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What Agnaa said. Comparing freaking Marvel (and Jojo but Marvel's the bigger deal) to Nostalgia Critic is absurd on many levels. Like what does Spider-Man review Casablanca in his comics for the majority his comics? No.

Also addressing Thunder and Reinhard being "memes." No. We turned them into memes. Played straight, which they're meant to be outside of VSBW, it's a man suffering from crippling suicidal depressio and a nazi with powers centered around philosophy and religio. Comparing that also to actual memes like "Big Lipped Alligator Moment" is not only utterly wrong, but potentially even insulting given Thunder's condition.

 

[Agnaa]

Except it isn't, as we've established above. 99.9% of the lore (which the reviews are not part of) comes from movies and characters and plots that are entirely original.

99.9% of the lore

THE LORE

I am referring to the content as a whole, and it seems like Dargoo is too.

The argument here is that the review portion, the part that has nothing to do with lore or combat, is what makes it fanfiction. Which is foolish.

Yes because if there was a story where the MC was just a part of Hermione's family and they never interacted with the plot, that verse would not be allowed on the site, because it would be fanfiction. Especially if 98% of the content was just slice of life stuff with Hermione's family.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Sure, if it we're entirely based on that, it wouldn't be, but not only is Awesomeverse looking at fiction as a whole, rather than a single verse, but the actual times where immersion occurs are few and far between compared with actual plot.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

A analogy has to have some bearing to the topic at hand, otherwise it cannot be used. That is nonnegotiable

 

[Buttersamuri]

I am fine if Critic has a page, however, similar characters too him were denined profiles. Despite having lore, backstory, consistent characters, and other such. A lot being cause their kinda hosts playing "themselves"

Adam conover for example. And Phil. Both people who play a character with the same name.

That being said. I don't agree that these characters can't have pages. A person playing a character that has the same name isn't them playing an OC of themselves. Adam has made numerous reasons to show he obviously isn't irl Adam. Like having a sister who irl isn't related to him. Having a backstory and life with this sister. Having a different backstory than his actual one. I never got the reason he lost his page. As long as a clear connection between the real life person and character are shown to be separate beings. Then that shouldn't be an argument used.

And bust cause they review something in their world. That doesn't take them out for having pages. That's the characters job in their universe. Shouldn't immediately dismiss them like we would dismiss an actual IRL host. Like say Ellen.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Sure, if it we're entirely based on that, it wouldn't be, but not only is Awesomeverse looking at fiction as a whole, rather than a single verse, but the actual times where immersion occurs are few and far between compared with actual plot.

I like how the "actual plot" carefully excludes what would place the verse on FC/OC according to your definition of it.

I sort of wish we could just look at the profiles, say "yeah, these obviously don't belong on the site", and just leave it at that. At the end of the day they're just two dudes who review video games. They don't have a place on a versus debating site.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

99.9% of the lore

THE LORE

I am referring to the content as a whole, and it seems like Dargoo is too.

The argument here is that the review portion, the part that has nothing to do with lore or combat, is what makes it fanfiction. Which is foolish.

Yes because if there was a story where the MC was just a part of Hermione's family and they never interacted with the plot, that verse would not be allowed on the site, because it would be fanfiction. Especially if 98% of the content was just slice of life stuff with Hermione's family.

The problem is that it would not only have to be a fanfic of fiction itself, which isn't a thing, but is separate from the actual story. The story is what qualifies something for being here, hence why those without a consistent universe are being removed. The story and lore are vastly more important variables than occasional issues with the review portion.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

What Agnaa said. Comparing freaking Marvel (and Jojo but Marvel's the bigger deal) to Nostalgia Critic is absurd on many levels. Like what does Spider-Man review Casablanca in his comics for the majority his comics? No.

Also addressing Thunder and Reinhard being "memes." No. We turned them into memes. Played straight, which they're meant to be outside of VSBW, it's a man suffering from crippling suicidal depressio and a nazi with powers centered around philosophy and religio. Comparing that also to actual memes like "Big Lipped Alligator Moment" is not only utterly wrong, but potentially even insulting given Thunder's condition.

Yes, but the review itself is not the issue, as the main variable is the foundation for the verse itself.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I like how the "actual plot" carefully excludes what would place the verse on FC/OC according to your definition of it.

I sort of wish we could just look at the profiles, say "yeah, these obviously don't belong on the site", and just leave it at that. At the end of the day they're just two dudes who review video games. They don't have a place on a versus debating site.

I like it too. Moving on

We can't do that. Basic logic. Books and covers, etc, etc. That would be a terrible idea.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, the main variable are the reviews. Take the Old Spice profiles, which was the reason JBW was created in the first place. Excluding the advertisements, the lore is about two supernatural men competing for screentime. Yet you have to look past the fact that it's nothing but an advertisement first and foremost. The situation at hand is less extreme but still relatable.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Even if they review stuff for most of their content from our perspective, in verse (which is what actually matters) that's only their occupation and how they make money. They perform many different feats and do many things outside of that, like conquering countries and whatnot. Claiming they're just "some dudes who play video games and review movies" is a blatant lie.

 

[Agnaa]

The problem is that it would not only have to be a fanfic of fiction itself, which isn't a thing, but is separate from the actual story. The story is what qualifies something for being here, hence why those without a consistent universe are being removed. The story and lore are vastly more important variables than occasional issues with the review portion.

I don't understand any of this post or how it relates to mine, except for the last sentence, so I'll respond to that.

Huge issues with the review portion matter when it makes up 98% of the content. I think similar to how we allow stories with ****, but not **** with a story, we should allow stories with pop culture references, but not pop culture references with a story. AVGN and Nostalgia Critic fall under the latter.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

when you try to discuss one thing, but everyone ignores it and starts going off on a rant about something else

This is literally going no where btw, we should likely just come back to them.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Additionally, by that logic, we shouldn't allow Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny because "they're just some dudes who mess with their friends." There's no reason why that alone should dictate things.

 

[Buttersamuri]

^^^^^


Being a reviewer shouldn't automatically shoot them down. That's just their job in their universe. It isn't bending into reality. If anything. Critic is as far away from reality as it gets

 

[GojiBoyForever]

How do we look at a profile and say it doesn't belong on this site? That makes literally no sense.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

No, the main variable are the reviews. Take the Old Spice profiles, which was the reason JBW was created in the first place. Excluding the advertisements, the lore is about two supernatural men competing for screentime. Yet you have to look past the fact that it's nothing but an advertisement first and foremost. The situation at hand is less extreme but still relatable.

Less extreme is key. Besides, their are many parts of the verse, in movies and such, where those elements are not the end all be all like you're implying.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Once again, terrible false equivalency given the small fact of eighty years of history that doesn't revolve around other's IPs.

 

[Agnaa]

when you try to discuss one thing, but everyone ignores it and starts going off on a rant about something else

This is literally going no where btw, we should likely just come back to them.

Yeah, because this thread is about YouTube profiles, not creepypasta. You've been asked to stop derailing multiple times, it's not that hard.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I don't understand any of this post or how it relates to mine, except for the last sentence, so I'll respond to that.

Huge issues with the review portion matter when it makes up 98% of the content. I think similar to how we allow stories with ****, but not **** with a story, we should allow stories with pop culture references, but not pop culture references with a story. AVGN and Nostalgia Critic fall under the latter.

The problem is that the reviews are only "99%" under our perspective, which has been proven to not be a major factor. Besides, it's not as one sided as you're claiming it to be, and is more of a 50/50 scenario at best even assuming that our perspective is key (which it isn't)

 

[Agnaa]

Less extreme is key. Besides, their are many parts of the verse, in movies and such, where those elements are not the end all be all like you're implying.

And there's parts of the Old Spice verse that are just video games and not actual TV advertisements.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

This is really derailing the thread, this should be moved to a different thread.