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Yoshikage Kira vs Cynthia

Because Pokémon, a species, isn't the same as an individual trainer. Unless you're saying that Ash has the same strategies as Red becuase they're counterparts.

This is never said. Nowhere is it said the heroic character will incap instead of kill, because it's willing to kill. In fact, this is the first ever time I've ever heard this argument and I've been here for years. Only exceptions is Steven Universe marches, where they explicitly keep his morals intact.

If this is specifically G4 Cynthia, there's not a game where she used Spiritomb after Garchomp. The former is a scout, the latter is an ace. Garchomp would still win.

As far as you're concerned doesn't matter. Her Pokémon's range is part of her range. Unless you're saying that this is just Kira vs Cynthia and you're saying this is an athletic woman against a man who causes molecular explosions with his invisible cat. You're arguing semantics here.
 
False analogy, literally the same character. Red isnt Ash but Cynthia is Cynthia, don't kid yourself Cal. What's the difference between Cynthia in the anime, the manga, etc? Nothing. Quite literally nothing. And don't pull the species card, in that vain why are we scaling Trainer Pokemon off the species as a whole? Those are specific Pokemon of that species, not the species as a whole as such we should only assume those Pokemon are as strong or can do what those Pokemon have done, not all Pikachu are the same as Ash's for example, yet looking at the profile, that's exactly what we do is it not? I'm seeing double standards here Cal, and it isn't even veiled, ignoring your analogy using two completely different characters, statistically speaking, Cynthia always leads with Garchomp in 99% of all encounters. It's like Steven, yeah he leads with Armaldo in his champion match, but we know damn well in every other intance it's Metagross, he uses Meta to get around, to intimidate foes, to take out criminals, in normal matches, so on and so forth. Cynthia may lead with Spiritomb in her Gen 4 Champion match, but every other time, even within Gen 4, it's Garchomp. And your bad analogies won't change that.

How about like the few hundred threads where that's been the norm? I'm gonna outright call bullshit on that, if you seriously haven't seen a thread where a character that normally doesn't kill in character but rather incaps their opponent is assumed to go for an incap before killing in a match, I don't care how long you've been here, you obviously haven't partaken in many verse threads, or you have and by some twisted stroke of luck you've managed to miss the hundreds of threads like that.

Yeah, Gen 4 Cynthia still includes the Gen 4 anime, manga and Generations, all of which Chomp comes out first, see the Steven example. Cynthia isnt in a Pokemon battle here Cal, that's what you don't understand. We know which Pokemon Cynthia uses against foes like Kira, such as galactic grunts, it's the Chomp.

I mean, the feeling's mutual. The Pokemon actually aren't apart of her range. Her range is listed as Standard melee range, although giving her the benefit of the doubt, it should really be listed as however far she can toss a Pokeball. The Pokemon aren't her, she has to call upon them first to get that range, hence the keys and all that. The Pokemon's range isn't her range, it's the Pokemon's range. Huge difference there Cal, this is Cynthia Vs. Kira, not 6 pokemon vs Kira, the SBA is her range, not the Pokemon's range, yes she has access to that range eventually, but as said, that's like saying Dio has several hundred meter range in SBA, nobody ******* thinks that, everybody assumes in every thread he's in that his range is 10 meters as that's The World's effective range, and nobody also goes oh well it has universal time stop so really his SBA range is universal and thus always 4km. Nobody actually thinks that Cal. Am I arguing semantics? Yes, I guess you could say I am, but I do stand by it. Actually, I'm not really arguing semantics, I'm going off what I've seen in the multitude of matches I've partaken in, arguing semantics would be doing this.

The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. For example, if one character has a range of 10 meter and the other has a range of 20 meter they start 20 meter apart. However if the range of one character is 10 meter and the range of the other is 5 kilometer, they start only 4 kilometer apart.

The fighters in this instance are Cynthia and Kira, Cynthia doesn't have multi km range, her Pokemon do and her Pokemon aren't the characters fighting, Cynthia is as such we use her range as the SBA, not the Pokemon that must be called in after the match starts.

>Unless you're saying that this is just Kira vs Cynthia and you're saying this is an athletic woman against a man who causes molecular explosions with his invisible cat.

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying here. This is an athletic woman fighting a middle aged man who has a cat punch ghost, not a bunch of monsters fighting said man, it's just said woman can call upon buff as **** monsters to help out.
 
If the OP is using JUST Cynthia then thats just a stomp on Kira's part, atleast use Kira without his stand to make it fair... But as far as IK none of these people can even fight without any external help... Only time I ever saw Kira throw a punch was against Hayato and in EOH when you start up a combo... Dunno bout Cynthia. Can't she start off with a Pokemon of hers? Kira can just easily catch the ball and blow it up. Granted he considers it a threat.
 
No? This really shouldnt be hard to understand. Cynthia can call out Pokemon using her Pokeballs. Which, of course, she would. But she doesnt start with any Pokemon out, she's a trainer, her default state isnt having Pokemon already out. She must grab a Pokeball, press the button, then throw it or something to call one out, but when the match begins? She doesnt have anything out because that's how matches with summoners work in general. If she had a Pokemon out already that'd technicall be prep time.
 
She has 4Km range. End of story. Don't like it? Go step on a lego, because that's how it's always been treated.
 
Sorry but I disagree, and honestly your rebuttal for why is extremely poor, it basically just boils down to no. Pretty sure you're using a fallacy a well.

But anyway, you are quite litteraly wrong, her Pokemo have that range, but she herself does not. You wouldnt say that Final Fantasy Characters like Noctis have Planetary range because he can summon Bahamut, would you? No, he has his own range, the range of the thing he summons isnt his and while he can make use of it after summoning it, he only does so because he can tell it what to do but in the end, that isnt him and by default and we wouldnt use Planetary range via a summon as his base default range in SBA situation. I know this because I literally checked his profile just now to figure out how we treat it for other characters. So I'd disagree that would be how we always treated it, because evidently that is not true.

And given you wanted to argue semantics, the SBA page says the fighter's range, not the things the fighter can call out's range. Cynthia doesn't have 4km range, the summons do, and as this is Cynthia Vs. an opponent, we should use her range, not the thing's that must be called forth after the match starts' range, especially when said things aren't even apart of her, shouldn't be that hard to understand. As said, would you treat a lion tamer as having infinite range because the lion can go as far away from him as needed?
 
I would say Noctis has that range. His summons are a part Of him so I would say he has planetary range. And everyone else would agree. The Dio example you gave? Yeah, they would say Dio had that tangr, because that's how the site operates. Hell, I tried to change it at one point of time. But it's not. They start at 4Km, end of story.

And sgsin, Garchomp would still win. Earthquake GG.
 
Well you're wrong Cal on that front, his summons are literally not apart of him, theyre summons. This isnt difficult Cal, Cynthia is Cynthia, her range is whatever her body allows and the range in which she can summon the Pokemon. Anything higher is the Pokemon's range, not her range. She can call out Pokemon but the Pokemon aren't her. This is Cynthia Vs. Kira, not Kira Vs. The Pokemon. While Cynthia can make use of the Pokemon, the Pokemon are not her and neither are their range, as said, it'd be like treating a lion tamer to have infinite range. You wanna say Cynthia has infinite range because she can just tell Togekiss hey fly to the other side of the planet. No, you wouldn't say that, because that's ridiculous but technically speaking, that is technically true but yet we don't list it as such.

Nobody says Dio has that range when figuring out SBA, literally, nobody. Nobody goes Yeah every match with Dio is 4km because his Time Stop is universal in range. No, everybody who has ever partaken in a Dio thread always assumes the range in question is the summoning range of his Stand, 10 meters, not universal or like a few km due to his throwing arm. Or Kira himself, technically Bomb1 has infinite range or BTD, one can g as far away from him as possible and one is universal, but yet nobody treats Kira tohave that sort of rage, hell in this very thread you yourself as gone on record stating Kira has bad range, are you going to back pedal now on that? And if you wanna go on about how the site works, well you did bring up semantics, and semantics doesn't mean it's wrong. The SBA page states the SBA starting distance uses the range of the fighter's range and the character. We're using Cynthia Vs. Kira, not 6 Pokemon Vs. Kira, the SBA page would dictate we use the character who's actually fighting's range, Cynthia just has the benefit of being able to call out other Character's to help her, but said Pokemon, said other characters in question, aren't her. So I'd disagree that is how the site operates because technically, the site rule for this does indeed specify the details of who and what SBA is used in regards to this, even if you think it's semantics.

Ya know, you're still ignoring how Cynthia actually goes about criminals and the like and how she goes about things outside of Pokemon battles, a big Pokemon such as you should know as much.

We can go back and forth on this all day but I stand by my point. The Pokemon arent her, hell she doesnt even start with them out, we use the Character's effective range in a match, Cynthia=/=Garchomp.

Also thinking on it, have we ever actually seen Earthquake extend more than like 100 feet? Excluding shit like Groudon, I dont think we ever actually have seen the move Earthquake extend as far as you want this match to be.
 
Tell that to the countless other matches where the Poke's max range was considered part of the trainer's max range. Hell, there's Red vs Ikki to go off of right now. Heck, I tried to change that. Togekiss doesn't have infinite range. It has 4KM range. So your analogy is moot.

Yes, Everybody. Because that's how SBA works. Gone doesn't fight 4Km range, but because the Kamehameha reaches much farther than that, he's automatically put at that range. I've tried to change it, I've failed.

Once again, willing to kill. I have never seen "this opponent incap" unless the opponent is some variation of immortal. Otherwise shit like Superman never wins for example. And she'd accidentally kill him, with the AP gap.

Even in the worst case scenario, 5 meters < 190 feet.
 
Uh, yeah, I am. I'm saying that isn't how Pokemon Trainers work, I will tell all the other countless matchs that, in fact I am right now. Every single match that features a Pokemon Trainer, without prep time, should have used the trainer's range, not the Pokemon's range as the SBA. Every match that did otherwise is faulty and flawed, wrong. It's the trainer's vs a character, not the Pokemon vs. the character, you know damn well what I'm saying stop acting like you don't.

My anology isn't moot, because you're strawmanning, and honestly, I can't tell if you're purposely pretending to not unerstand what I said or not but I made it quite clear multiple times what my analogy was. Togekiss can go as far away from Cynthia as need be, ergo Togekiss has infinite range because the range Togekiss can go away from Cynthia is infinite, you know damn well what I meant so cut the shit, don't feign ignorance. You gonna slap infinite, or at least planetary range, for every trainer because the Pokemon they call out can go infinitely far away from them if need be? The only way my analogy would be moot is if I said Togekiss had infinite range, but that isn't what I said, to repeat myself again, Cynthia would have infinite range via Togekiss through Togekiss being able to go infinitely far away.

I find it odd how you oce again didn't actually rebutt me but just said everybody agrees with you. Bit egotistical don't you think? Especially when that isn't the case. Also I fail to understand your point with Gon and Goku, whatever point you're trying to make has nothing to do with what I said. Please reread what I said because you likely misunderstood me, that or you're cherry picking, either or probably given you're ignoring most of what I said.

Yes, willing to kill. Not will kill. Dude I'm pretty sure I've see you in threads where that's been a thing months back. I mean yeah, Superman probably shouldn't win, but then again, t's willing to kill, he'll kill if need be, but in a hypothetitcal match he'd likely try to incap first. Like if you put Supes against, idk, let's use Cynthia actually. Superman isnt gonna immediatly fly at Cynthia at light speed and pop her like a balloon, no, he'd fly over to her and lightly tap her to knock her out, he'd kill if pushed hence why he's willing, but being willing to kill doesnt mean that's the first thig a character will do.

Accidentally kill? I know for a fact you've seen the countless times a character has commanded their Pokemon to simply incap, not kill. See Lance and Dragonite, Dragonite clearly pulled his hyperbeams as to not vaporize the rocket grunts. Why would Cynthia tell Garchomp to use a full powered earthquake opposed to simply telling Garchomp to go over and knock the man out? You're heavily misinitepreting how these Pokemon characters actually act, usual strategies Cal, I dont ever recall earthquaking someone to death the nanosecond she comes across someone to be her usual strategy. Actually havent we seen her lightly knock out Galactic Grunts before?


Anyway, is there a reason why you ignored the part about Dio's universal range, the fact Kira now suddenly has planetary and universal range as per SBA in your own words despite previously enforcing that Kira had awful range, the fact other summoners ,uch like Cynthia dont use the summon's attack range as the SBA but rather the actual character's range among othr things that I said above? I really dont wanna argue this with you Cal, but I will if need be, although we really shouldnt, it's clear we disagree and we're jut gonna go around in circles. I'd rather just agree to disagree on this.
 
For the Togekis thing?

Shouldnt be that hard to understand but imagine this, what if there was a Stand that had infinite range? It can go as far away from it's user that is humanly possible for it, it isnt bound to the User, so we'd say the range for the Stand is infinite right? It can go infinitely far away from the host. Much like how Echoes Act 1 has 50m range, this Stand has infinite.

Same thing here, technically speaking what's to say Cynthia doesnt have infinite range via Pokemon? None are bound to her, all can go across the planet away from Cynthia, would you say that's the Pokemon's range? Because they can go and keep on going without stopping? I would, but I wouldnt say that's the SBA obviously for reasons detailed above.
 
What the hell does that gotta do with what I said? And not even remotely true.

Let's list off the Stands that can go above 10m from the host, ignoring any attacks or abilities said Stands may have that greatly extend that.

Hierophant Green

Magician's Red

Tower Of Gray

Dark Blue Moon

Yellow Temperance

Hanged Man

Empress

Justice

Lovers

The Sun

Judgement

High Priestess

Osiris

Echoes Act 1

Heaven's Door

Aqua Necklace

RHCP

Bad Company

Harvest

Highway Star

Moody Blues

Sex Pistols

Aerosmith

Black Sabbath

Clash

Talking Head

Metallica

Rolling Stone

Weather

Whitesnake

C-Moon

GGD

Manhatten Transfer

HTH

Marilyn Manson

Survivor

YYM

Jail House Lock

Bohemian (idk this one may or may not just be an ability Stand)

Underworld

Tusk Act 4

Paisley Park

Paper Moon King

Born This Way

Doobie Wah

Blue Hawaii

Brain Storm

Ozone Baby

Satoru's Stand

And that's just from the main canon, and excluding things like Bound Stands, Rouge Stands like BIG and Anubis and all that. Echoes isnt unique, it's the norm, basically half of all Stands have 10m+ summoning range, meaning the 10- range Stands are even less than half given Bound Stands, AOE abilitis and all that take up a chunk as well. But that begs the question, what the hell does Echoes gota do with my point, that wasnt even my point, why did you single out an irrelevant example instead of actually rebutting the point itself. If you wanna debate this can you at least debate the point I'm making and not cherry picking an example I used but then proceeding to say something that doesnt effect my point at all or what I was saying? Like come on Cal, I like ya but dude.
 
KQ isn't one of those tho. All the main ones? Main villains and main Jojo's, which you know I was taking about? 10M at most. I dare you to pull semantics me again. I triple dog dare you.
 
I feel like I'm getting punked. KQ had nothing do with the point, KQ had nothing to do with what you said, or anything actually said fir that matter in this topic. You never said main ones, you said Stands, most Stands are below 10m in range, that's what you said and you're wrong. You can't turn around and go I was talking about main character Stands because that's not what you said, what you said couldnt even be intepreted that way, and even if it was, half the main character Stands have above 10m range, hell only Pol and Jotaro in the Crusaders have small range for example, HG for example is several hundred meters at minimum and we never actually see his limit so even then, you're still wrong. And clearly even if you meant main characters, you aren't talking about just the JoJo's otherwise you wouldnt have even singled Echoes out as he's Koichi Hirose, not Koichi Joestar. Also technically speaking Jotaro, Crazy Diamond, Stone Free, Tusk, GE, GER, etc all have abilities that extend far above the summoning range. Ranging from 20-40m to universal and even Multiversal.

se┬Àman┬Àtics

/sə╦êman(t)iks/

nou

the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.

the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.plural noun: semantics

"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

As you can see, there is no semantics here, the only semantics I've done is point out the SBA page cleary states that the range used in SBA distance is that of the character actually fighting, thus we should use Cynthia's range in that it's whatever she can do but also however far she can send a Pokemon (idk, thinking on it that's like what? 10-20ft?) judging by other characters that use summons in fights, such as Noctis, we use his range in SBA, not Bahamut's giga planetary range as SBA, everything else? Not semantics and even then, you could argue that wasn't even semantics but rather just taking the SBA rules at face value for exactly what it's said. I could even argue it is you who's doing semantics given I'm just taking what is said at face value and you're taking how a profile is layed out and extrapolating that to mean it's one character when we both not that isnt truely true.

But beyond all that, what I fail to understand is why you're constantly moving the goalposts.

I mean, you took my Togekiss example, and somehow ignored the point every single time, cherry picking a non relevant piece of information from the post to comment on but said comment not actually having any bearing on the point. Yes, you're right, KQ isnt one of those (SHA technically is tho so meh).

So I ask, what does Echoes having high range or KQ the base Stand not having high range have to do with my Togekiss example? The answer? It doesn't. Not at all, so, I'm going to say it again, technically speaking what's to say Cynthia doesnt have infinite range via Pokemon? None are bound to her, all can go across the planet away from Cynthia, would you say that's the Pokemon's range? Because they can go and keep on going without stopping? Does Cynthia have infinite range because of that? Much like a Stand that has infinite range? (Which was my point fyi, idk how we got from that to KQ having small range again and Echoes being somehow unique).

Then again, this point doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things, it was one point out of many, and not even the main point. Unless I misunderstood you and you're bringing up KQ again to say he doesnt have big range thus you technically werent wrong when you said he had bad range thus you arent backpedaling, no, you're still kinda wrong on that due to your line of reasoning. KQ's Bomb#1 has infinite range and BTD has universal range but nobody, even you in this very thread, uses those as his SBA distance but instead everybody, even you, simply use the summon range of KQ.

At this point we better just agree to disagree, this wont go anywhere.
 
Agreeing to disagree is for the weak who can't come up with a manly decision. You're a Jojo fan like moi. You should know about manliness more than anything else. You either win or lose. That's the manly way.
 
I don't care inherently for voting at the moment, but the idea being used here that Cynthia won't be using Spiritomb is frankly dumb. Her leading with Garchomp is something the Anime and Manga enforce, not the games. While those two continuities matter, there is not going to ever be a circumstance where a secondary/tertiary canon takes priority over the main. She will lead with Spiritomb and that's how it is.

Also, ghost types are naturally incorporeal. You can check out an episode in Alola where Mimikyu is naturally going through people and they comment "Yeah, that's natural for Ghost types" or something along those lines.
 
PlozAlcachaz said:
I don't care inherently for voting at the moment, but the idea being used here that Cynthia won't be using Spiritomb is frankly dumb. Her leading with Garchomp is something the Anime and Manga enforce, not the games. While those two continuities matter, there is not going to ever be a circumstance where a secondary/tertiary canon takes priority over the main. She will lead with Spiritomb and that's how it is.
Also, ghost types are naturally incorporeal. You can check out an episode in Alola where Mimikyu is naturally going through people and they comment "Yeah, that's natural for Ghost types" or something along those lines.
Click to expand...
Don't we use the most recent version, which is pokemon masters?
 
Chompsthedirt said:
Don't we use the most recent version, which is pokemon masters?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what level of canonicity Masters is given on this site, but it shouldn't given it's not one of the mainline games. It'd be dubious to assert what is probably regarded as a secondary canon over them. Even then, we'd go with what she leads with more on a consistent basis. If you look at her Bulbapedia page, she's lead with Spiritomb as a Champion in DPP, did so in the post-game rematch, did so in BW in Undella Town, and she did so again in B2W2 in Undella Town. The only time she's led with Garchomp is World Tournament matches, and we can't use the Batte Tree appearance because it's a randomized factor (which isn't something she leads with Garchomp anyway). That's 4/5 occasions she's led with Spiritomb (4/6 with Battle Tree if you want to count that, 4/7 maybe with Masters if you say it's primary canon), which is why I said I don't understand why we're saying she won't lead with it. It's the one she's used the most as her lead.
 
Aight, I am respond now.

Even in the worst case scenario, where it's starting off from Cynthia's range, any human can yeet a ball farther than 5 meters so she still has the range advantage. And I'm still not buying the "incap the opponent and not fight" when she one shots with anything. She leads with Spiritomb, the ghost destroys Kira. She leads with Garchomp, earthquake. If he somehow manages to get a kill off, it would be on a Pokémon, not her, as they're the faaaaaar greater threat, and he'd think of it like a Stand. Killing it means killing her. And if one dies, an enraged Cynthia holds no bars and Kira gets swamped by Milotic, Lucario, Roserade, or Togekiss. Because again, they shit on him in terms of stats, and have the NPI to hit KQ if he tries to intercept. KQ tried to block like he did Jotaro and he's getting blown to bits even more than Kira does to his women.
 
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