Yhwach vs Kaguya Otsutsuki (speed equalized)

[LordAizenSama]

For the sake of fairness we probably shouldn't ;\

 

[Cropfist]

Is Yhwach allowed to use the Sternritter abilties?

No.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

For the sake of fairness we probably shouldn't ;\

So Yhwach is kinda nerfed for this fight? No problem he can still win. I can't see how Kaguya bypasses Almighty in any way ;v

 

[LordAizenSama]

I mean we don't for sure whether he can use them or not, I think he probably could but yeah ;\

 

[HokageMangaVox]

If Yhwach can't use quincy abilities, then neither should Kaguya use abilities she have never use before like soul stealing, even if it was stated that she possessed all jutsus. Since Yhwach is the same case only statements that he can use then with a vague demonstration with James power to increase his own strength. Aizen said to have released KS before they arrived. The power doesn't work if Aizen hasn't show then the ritual release, meaning that it work because he had previously shown Yhwach the release, otherwise Ichigo would had also fallen victim to it when he arrived. Aizen confirmed himself, that he was glad that he never show the released to ichigo, unlike Genjutsu his KS is permanent whenever he releases his sword again the person will fall under it, because he had already seen the ritual. Also, someone above that "owns" the volumes forgot that to exist in soul society you need to be a spirit or have your body matter transform into soul particles. Does Kaguya have feats of absorbing Reishi a.k.a. spiritual matter not a soul. Or a soul from a soul. Because only energy is equalize here, not matter. Yhwach falls under Kyoga Suigetsu:


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_510_11#gohere


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_510_12#gohere


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_514_14#gohere


95 chapters later, Yhwach unlocks the Almighty after having it sealed for a 1,000 years:


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_609_16#gohere


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_610


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_610_2#gohere


Now 72 chapters later he meets Aizen again:


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_682


Which explains that he activate Kyoga Suigetsu before all of them arrive:


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_684_4#gohere


But Aizen also clearly explains that Ichigo was not affected, because Ichigo has never seen the release of Kyoga Suigetsu, which he already show Yhwach before chapter 510:


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_684_5#gohere


How Kyoga Suigetsu works:


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_171_12#gohere


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_171_13#gohere


http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_171_14#gohere

 

[Akiretsu]

@Akiretsu Yhwach can absorb her like he did to the Soul King and Aizen. While it would take some time seeing as she is a being on his level, it would inevitably happen.

Like I said before, this battle is a total mismatch imho...

That wouldnt happen seeing as Speed is equal.
Also its stated that The IT user gains the abilities of all under its affect.

 

[Akiretsu]

Smh...you people are seriously reaching with the KS bs. On that front, i concede because i dont have the patience.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, someone above that "owns" the volumes forgot that to exist in soul society you need to be a spirit or have your body matter transform into soul particles. Does Kaguya have feats of absorbing Reishi a.k.a. spiritual matter not a soul. Or a soul from a soul. Because only energy is equalize here, not matter.

Actually that isnt true. Tatsuki and all of Ichigo's friends were perfectly capable of roaming around in the soul society without being souls or transforming into soul particles. In fact, all of Kankakura Town was moved into the Soul Society before the war between the Soul Reapers and Arrancars occured and nothing of either scenerio was stated to occur. So unless you can prove the entire town and all of its residents were turned into souls or converted into soul particles, no you do not need to be a soul to enter the Soul Society. The mechanics here seem extremely similar to the likes of Danny Phantoms Ghost Zone, where humans who enter the zone 'are' the ghosts to the ghosts who invade their world. Seems no different with the Soul Society. Also how is spiritual matter not the same thing as a soul? It's matter coming from a spirit right? Aka parts of a soul coming off of them?

And even if im wrong here, what does this have to do with what I was arguing about before?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That reminds me, if Kaguya can absorb nearly any to any ninjutsu, then that should mean she is perfectly capable of absorbing someone who uses the Spirit Transformation Jutsu (Dan) who can literally have their soul exit their body and take over other people's bodies. Not sure if this helps but I thought it was something to address here so

 

[Akiretsu]

Well in Naruto, Souls exist as Chakra but don't account for the Chakra in the body...idk, its weird. Obviously Jutsu interact with souls.Tobirama stated he could save Sasuke's soul despite not being able to sense his chakra.

 

[Perilouss]

I mean we don't for sure whether he can use them or not, I think he probably could but yeah ;\

I'm pretty sure he can, or like half the point of the whole auswhalen concept will be gone, it's been stated and/or implied many times that he can use auswhalen to take other quincy abilities, I don't know why people seem to try deny it all the time lol

 

[HalfAsianFan]

I vote Ywhach for the mile-long list of reasons above. He just looks at all the possible futures and thinks "Might as well win this one, don't really fancy my soul being eaten."

 

[Sotomaru]

lol Akiretsu please dont debate when you dont know what your talking about tyvm.

 

[Sotomaru]

Now lets get serious ks was used on yhwach before the almighty was activated tehrefore aizen was able to manipulate the future that he sees can you comprehend what im saying ? now yhwach cant put kaguya down ? thats a good joke.

Yhwach can simply absorb her just like he did to aizen "BUT KAGUYA IS IMMORTAL" yeah so?

aizen is immortal as well.

 

[Zensum]

Yep. he used it before they all got there. and you know what the deal is to be caught under it's illusion? to see it's release.

Which means it had to of been used while Aizen was in prison. Yhwach even says it back in chapter 514 if you want to see for yourself.

Like i said. Yhwach never specifically stated that KS was used. He said Aizen messed with his perception of time. And even if it was KS. It should have been negated as soon as Almighty was activated the same as with Ichibei's abilities. If it wasn't then that means the almighty can't negate abilities that affect the mind. Yhwachs Almighty as he stated gives him the ability to negated the affects of abilities used on him. If almighty can't negate KS why can it Negate IT? KS being used on him before Almighty was used means nothing if Almighty cant negate it anyways which is the case. Otherwise KS would have been ineffective just like Ichimonji. Do you not understand that? And again, Aizen statements in that scan imply at that moment. Kubo even has pictures of Yhwach arriving to Soul Society to accompany that Statement of using KS before Ichigo arrived.
Youre not debunking this.

Almighty works by using the future to negate abilties. The reason why he couldnt negate the KS with the future because he would need to negate seeing the release ritual which had already happened pre almighty. IT is a lot differnt in the reguard and he's in almighty at the start

Now lets get serious ks was used on yhwach before the almighty was activated tehrefore aizen was able to manipulate the future that he sees can you comprehend what im saying ? now yhwach cant put kaguya down ? thats a good joke.
Yhwach can simply absorb her just like he did to aizen "BUT KAGUYA IS IMMORTAL" yeah so?

aizen is immortal as well.

Actually he never used the absorption technique on Aizen but I agree.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Well I think that everyone has made their points here and anything else is just circular arguments. if someone could go through and count the votes (ones that give valid reasons or agreeing to someone elses) that would be great

 

[FinalBattleX01]

No point counting votes really, its an overwhelming victory for Yhwach, iirc theres just 2 or 3 people for Kaguya. I still think this is a mismatch since the tthread's general consensus is that Kaguya literally cant do anything to Yhwach...

 

[LordAizenSama]

He may win decisively, but I don't know if it's a stomp. I'd still like the votes counted.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

Alright, I'll count then.

But I'll just say that in a decisive victory the opposing side still stands a chance, its just extremely unlikely that they will win. As an admin with extensive knowledge of Bleach I ask you, can you think of ANY way Kaguya can win when her BFR, IT, TSB and immortality are useless?

 

[FinalBattleX01]

I may have missed some but its 21-3 for Yhwach. 22 if you count my vote for Yhwach but I think its a mismatch so i dunno if it should count...

 

[LordAizenSama]

Hm. Good point. The only thing I think saving Kaguya here is her regen which is quite high, but I don't think she can defeat him with anything. though Kaguya has a vast arsenal so who knows, I may have missed something

That's only what I think though. Clearly not everyone agrees here. I just want this thread over one way or another

 

[FinalBattleX01]

Remember Yhwach can absorb even higher Tier beings so he could just absorb her regardless of her regen. Even if by some miracle she kills him, he can just revive so I really dont see anything she could do.

I get that people want to see Yhwach beat Kaguya since they are the strongest in their respective verses, but Kaguya's win/loss is already controvertial enough with the fact that its only losses, lets not start adding mismatches to it too...

Meh, I've made my points, you're the admin here, your call

 

[LordAizenSama]

Alright. i've changed my mind this is likely a stomp despite the arguments being made for Kaguya.

EDIT: The Vote count is 22-3? guess that says enough..

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Also, someone above that "owns" the volumes forgot that to exist in soul society you need to be a spirit or have your body matter transform into soul particles. Does Kaguya have feats of absorbing Reishi a.k.a. spiritual matter not a soul. Or a soul from a soul. Because only energy is equalize here, not matter.

Actually that isnt true. Tatsuki and all of Ichigo's friends were perfectly capable of roaming around in the soul society without being souls
or transforming into soul particles. In fact, all of Kankakura Town was moved into the Soul Society before the war between the Soul Reapers and Arrancars occured and nothing of either scenerio was stated to occur. So unless you can prove the entire town and all of its residents were turned into souls or converted into soul particles, no you do not need to be a soul to enter the Soul Society. The mechanics here seem extremely similar to the likes of Danny Phantoms Ghost Zone, where humans who enter the zone 'are' the ghosts to the ghosts who invade their world. Seems no different with the Soul Society. Also how is spiritual matter not the same thing as a soul? It's matter coming from a spirit right? Aka parts of a soul coming off of them?
And even if im wrong here, what does this have to do with what I was arguing about before?

Actually, Mayuri explained how it was transfer. Using Urahara's device.

http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_315_5#gohere http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_70_7#gohere http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_70_8#gohere To exist in soul society you need to be a soul or have your body matter transform into soul particles. Does Kaguya have feats of absorbing Reishi a.k.a. spiritual matter, not a soul. Or to absorb a soul from a soul. I'll wait for the scans, since last time i check rinnegan has only been shown to work on the physical body. And Nagato didn't succeded in taking Naruto's soul, so it can be resisted either way, i'll wait for you to show scans of Kaguya absorbing a soul from someone.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Smh...you people are seriously reaching with the KS bs. On that front, i concede because i dont have the patience.

Aizen explains it just find, you don't wanting to accept it and making some bsassumption that Aizen possessess another method to control the senses, that is what truly is bs and speculation on your part, given the fact that he never show such thing, besides KS, and way back in "Deicide", he fused with his Zanpakuto and its powers.

 

[Veilas_Frostmoon]

To much NLF here. Smh.
Stopping a Planet lvl attack, and stopping a power with the almighty are two different things.

Can someone link to where is said that Naruto's moon has oxygen? I'll wait. Or is it an assumption?

I think you're grasping, brother. They need oxygen. Only a handful can survive space travel and they pretty much relate to the Ootsutsuki. If the normal shinobi didn't need to breathe, there'd be no need for a poison bomb or poison gas. You know, like how Sakura had to hold her breath after being trapped in that poison cloud during her fight with Sasori?



Huh. I can't help but wonder why Sakura is struggling to hold her breath. According to you, she should be able to stand there indefinitely, since you believe she can stand in the vacuum of space without any issue. And yet, Sakura is struggling to hold her breath to avoid inhaling poison gas. I wonder why? Thus, the Naruto moon clearly has oxygen.

Needing oxygen and breathing in space are two different things. Your point will be valid when you show where is said that there's oxygen in the moon. Which is never.

Plant and animal life on the moon.


As you can see, the moon has both plant life and insect life. Neither of these can survive in the vacuum of space. In fact, the official wiki supports my claim by stating that Naruto's moon has "a weak gravity, but maintains a breathable atmosphere." If you don't accept that, a whole lot of evidence pointing out that it does have air and they do have to breathe like any ordinary person (with the exception of the ootsutsuki and possibly a few others), I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Akiretsu]

Im actually the one who isn't assuming anything. But people will see what they want. So whatever makes you guys happy. BS or not it done. I just disagree with somethings being said but the minority doesn't matter here anyways.

 

[LordAizenSama]

So.. does anyone else think this is a stomp in Yhwach's favour and should be closed? or is it a fair match.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

I think its a stomp... though I think everyone gets that by now... I'll just go stand over there...

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Plant and animal life on the moon.


As you can see, the moon has both plant life and insect life. Neither of these can survive in the vacuum of space. In fact, the official wiki supports my claim by stating that Naruto's moon has "a weak gravity, but maintains a breathable atmosphere." If you don't accept that, a whole lot of evidence pointing out that it does have air and they do have to breathe like any ordinary person (with the exception of the ootsutsuki and possibly a few others), I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This is inside the moon, where live can be supported by the artificial sun, nothing subjects that there's oxygen on the surface. If you can prove it, then I will agree with you. But since you can't at the moment, I'll leave it at that.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Im actually the one who isn't assuming anything. But people will see what they want. So whatever makes you guys happy. BS or not it done. I just disagree with somethings being said but the minority doesn't matter here anyways.

I know you're intitled to your own opinion, but you're suggesting something that is not possible, and that contradicts the power nature of said character. In your own words how do you assume Aizen tricked Yhwach's senses back then? And since he never show the ritual lto Yhwach, like you assume. Then how was Yhwach under KS effect? Since Ichigo wasn't affected either when he arrive, and Aizen clarify that to him. If he had seen the ritual back then, Ichigo would had also been under its effect when he arrived.

 

[PaChi2]

Not that it matters, but iirc hinata could take Toneri's eyes just find, and they were fighting on the surface of the moon. Does that prove it, its been a while since I last watched the film.

 

[HalfAsianFan]

@LAS I agree it's kind of a stomp with Kaguya having no moves except ^this moon BFRing which wouldn't matter anyway.

EDIT: That being said could we still consider this to be notable since Kaguya is a similarly powerful being, just with less hax?

 

[Veilas_Frostmoon]

So.. does anyone else think this is a stomp in Yhwach's favour and should be closed? or is it a fair match.

It's definitely a stomp. Yhwach's ban shouldn't have been lifted to begin with.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Alright.