Yet another Goku vs Superman Thread (7-3-0)

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm going to say Goku because speed is equalised and Superman can be one shot. Sure, Superman has a BFR punch but that requires him hitting Goku before Goku hits him and I'm reasonably confident that Goku could hit him first via superior skill at hand-to-hand and adaptability. Also the ability to enhance his speed in bursts.

So yeah, that's a vote for Goku for reasons of superior skill and (likely) speed in a fight built around "Who punches who first?"

Batman knows every martial art on earth
Is above Dick Grayson who beat someone who can predict over a million possible fighting moves a second

Grandpa Gohan was stated to have mastered every martial art on his Earth as well. And Goku is stated to have surpassed him as a martial artist even as a youth. Goku has fought and compared to the likes of Cell (A hybrid of all the most impressive fighters in the series up to that point), Beerus (even if he held back he was still greatly impressed by Goku), Hit (An assassin with over a thousand years of practice and considered the greatest of his universe), Zamasu (a Kai prodigy who had thousands of years of experience and was deemed one of the greatest Kai martial artists), Jiren (someone said to surpass Belmod who is a martial artist with over 300,000 years of training and experience), Moro (who copied Merus' abilities) as well as the likes of Granolah and Gas (Who became the greatest martial artists in the universe via their wishes).

Goku has long transcended the level of Grandpa Gohan who was a master of all Earth-based martial arts.

 

[Spilxson2]

I'm going to say Goku because speed is equalised and Superman can be one shot. Sure, Superman has a BFR punch but that requires him hitting Goku before Goku hits him and I'm reasonably confident that Goku could hit him first via superior skill at hand-to-hand and adaptability. Also the ability to enhance his speed in bursts.

So yeah, that's a vote for Goku for reasons of superior skill and (likely) speed in a fight built around "Who punches who first?"


Grandpa Gohan was stated to have mastered every martial art on his Earth as well. And Goku is stated to have surpassed him as a martial artist even as a youth. Goku has fought and compared to the likes of Cell (A hybrid of all the most impressive fighters in the series up to that point), Beerus (even if he held back he was still greatly impressed by Goku), Hit (An assassin with over a thousand years of practice and considered the greatest of his universe), Zamasu (a Kai prodigy who had thousands of years of experience and was deemed one of the greatest Kai martial artists), Jiren (someone said to surpass Belmod who is a martial artist with over 300,000 years of training and experience), Moro (who copied Merus' abilities) as well as the likes of Granolah and Gas (Who became the greatest martial artists in the universe via their wishes).

Goku has long transcended the level of Grandpa Gohan who was a master of all Earth-based martial arts.

Counted. How exactly is Superman being one shot though? I thought RF Goku and Superman were both at 3 universes

 

[Huesito88]

Counted. How exactly is Superman being one shot though? I thought RF Goku and Superman were both at 3 universes

Multipliers, Goku is 3 universes, in said 3 universes he's x however many super saiyan multipliers into 3 universes from it's baseline

edit I mean RF Goku probably still has enough of a boost compared where he was, probably made that wording confusing

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Counted. How exactly is Superman being one shot though? I thought RF Goku and Superman were both at 3 universes

As Huesito said. For further clarification, the wiki treats the gap between 3 universes to 4 universes to be infinite. So the gap from 10-C to Low 2-C is basically the same as going from 3 2-C to 4 2-C.

So via multipliers Goku can be billions of times stronger than Superman despite the both of them being 3 2-C.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

This is RoF Goku so there's no defined multipliers when compared to BoG

unless of course he transforms

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is RoF Goku so there's no defined multipliers when compared to BoG

unless of course he transforms

Just Base? OP doesn't seem to specify. Can anyone source me up on Superman's scaling chain then?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Just Base? OP doesn't seem to specify. Can anyone source me up on Superman's scaling chain then?

Why wouldn't he start in base?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Why wouldn't he start in base?

No, I was asking if this fight actually limited him to just his base form because I don't see anything stating that and you were giving me the impression I missed something.

If you were responding to me saying Goku could be 'billions of times stronger' that was just a hypothetical to illustrate that they can both be 3 2-C and still have huge power gaps.

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

I'm going to say Goku because speed is equalised and Superman can be one shot. Sure, Superman has a BFR punch but that requires him hitting Goku before Goku hits him and I'm reasonably confident that Goku could hit him first via superior skill at hand-to-hand and adaptability. Also the ability to enhance his speed in bursts.

So yeah, that's a vote for Goku for reasons of superior skill and (likely) speed in a fight built around "Who punches who first?"


Grandpa Gohan was stated to have mastered every martial art on his Earth as well. And Goku is stated to have surpassed him as a martial artist even as a youth. Goku has fought and compared to the likes of Cell (A hybrid of all the most impressive fighters in the series up to that point), Beerus (even if he held back he was still greatly impressed by Goku), Hit (An assassin with over a thousand years of practice and considered the greatest of his universe), Zamasu (a Kai prodigy who had thousands of years of experience and was deemed one of the greatest Kai martial artists), Jiren (someone said to surpass Belmod who is a martial artist with over 300,000 years of training and experience), Moro (who copied Merus' abilities) as well as the likes of Granolah and Gas (Who became the greatest martial artists in the universe via their wishes).

Goku has long transcended the level of Grandpa Gohan who was a master of all Earth-based martial arts.

I'm guessing you think Goku is above batman and all of dc in skill?

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

I'm going to say Goku because speed is equalised and Superman can be one shot. Sure, Superman has a BFR punch but that requires him hitting Goku before Goku hits him and I'm reasonably confident that Goku could hit him first via superior skill at hand-to-hand and adaptability. Also the ability to enhance his speed in bursts.

So yeah, that's a vote for Goku for reasons of superior skill and (likely) speed in a fight built around "Who punches who first?"


Grandpa Gohan was stated to have mastered every martial art on his Earth as well. And Goku is stated to have surpassed him as a martial artist even as a youth. Goku has fought and compared to the likes of Cell (A hybrid of all the most impressive fighters in the series up to that point), Beerus (even if he held back he was still greatly impressed by Goku), Hit (An assassin with over a thousand years of practice and considered the greatest of his universe), Zamasu (a Kai prodigy who had thousands of years of experience and was deemed one of the greatest Kai martial artists), Jiren (someone said to surpass Belmod who is a martial artist with over 300,000 years of training and experience), Moro (who copied Merus' abilities) as well as the likes of Granolah and Gas (Who became the greatest martial artists in the universe via their wishes).

Goku has long transcended the level of Grandpa Gohan who was a master of all Earth-based martial arts.

I don't see how any of this is comparable to thinking of Millions of moves a SECOND

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

But I don't think skill is as important to this fight as most think

 

[Emerald]

Considering this is RoF Goku (which i assume is base form), can't he just go Blue and amp all of his stats by like... a lot?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I don't see how any of this is comparable to thinking of Millions of moves a SECOND

How many moves a second do you think DB characters can think when they have demonstrated the ability to fight and communicate at MFTL+ speeds? How about Goku who has displayed the ability to outthink someone who could skip through time despite thinking at MFTL+ speeds while skipping through time and being free to act. And that's Goku in his Base form.

To add further you keep on claiming this but I haven't seen a single scan to demonstrate it and Superman's profile doesn't even claim he has any notable Martial Arts skill. Here is Yamcha stating Gohan was said to be an 'unparalleled master of all martial arts'.

Show me the scans of Dick Grayson thinking at 'millions of moves a second' and show me the fight that makes Superman scale to that.

I'm guessing you think Goku is above batman and all of dc in skill?

I never said that. I said that Grandpa Gohan has a similar statement of 'mastering all martial arts on Earth' and that Goku surpassed that when he was a child. And we also know Earth-based martial arts are far more advanced than IRL not just because of Ki but also because Roshi casually outclassed a guy who said he was a '30th level Black Belt in Kenpo' when it only goes up to 10th level IRL.

Comparatively Superman's profile states he is 'skilled at boxing and judo' and that while he trained under Muhammad Ali for two weeks in boxing and copied his fighting style he still lost. That doesn't give me any impression that he has skill anywhere near even early DB Goku and if he does then his profile doesn't reflect that and that's what we use for these matches.

I don't know what state DC revisions are in but if there isn't anything going on for Pre-Crisis Superman it would be a good idea to stir up interest for it and getting that done. So that if this match ends in Goku's favour you can get it removed.

Considering this is RoF Goku (which i assume is base form), can't he just go Blue and amp all of his stats by like... a lot?

To my recollection it was accepted that Super Saiyan 2 multiplies power by at least 500x because it was accepted Grade 3 Super Saiyan is 10x Super Saiyan and that SS2 scales above that. So Goku can multiply his stats by at least 500. And I believe Blue being 50x God is accepted so you can argue it's at least a 25,000x increase over base form.

No one has provided a scaling chain for Superman so I'm left with the impression that he is only baseline 3 2-C. Which isn't great for him because Manga Goku's profile states he absorbed the power of God into Base and he would have grown stronger via training under Whis for a year.

 

[Spilxson2]

Considering this is RoF Goku (which i assume is base form), can't he just go Blue and amp all of his stats by like... a lot?

He can. Even if he somehow couldn't, he gets stronger during fights anyway. I think Superman should still have a few win conditions though

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

To my recollection it was accepted that Super Saiyan 2 multiplies power by at least 500x because it was accepted Grade 3 Super Saiyan is 10x Super Saiyan and that SS2 scales above that. So Goku can multiply his stats by at least 500. And I believe Blue being 50x God is accepted so you can argue it's at least a 25,000x increase over base form.

SSG was accepted as a 250,000x multiplier therefore SSB is 12,500,000x

 

[Spilxson2]

I thought resurrection F saga Goku was only 2-C with Super Saiyan God and didn't get Blue yet? His key and justification don't say anything about super saiyan blue, just 2-C with Super Saiyan God

 

[CryoTheMayo]

He can. Even if he somehow couldn't, he gets stronger during fights anyway. I think Superman should still have a few win conditions though

What win cons are you thinking of? Only one I've seen being argued at length is the BFR punch.

SSG was accepted as a 250,000x multiplier therefore SSB is 12,500,000x

Well. Okay then. So Goku scales to over 12,500,000x baseline while Superman is seemingly only baseline. I guess Superman technically has a chance if Goku stays in base form long enough but I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Superman has anywhere near Goku's level of skill. Kinda feels like it'd go the same way as Base Goku vs 4th Form Freeza.

 

[Spilxson2]

Does Goku resist Superman's transmutation?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Does Goku resist Superman's transmutation?

That shit is limited

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Does Goku resist Superman's transmutation?

Super Vegito has limited resistance but for some reason Goku doesn't. I suppose it was concluded it was unique to Vegito or maybe that's a revision for the future.

From what I checked Superman's form of Transmutation had him turn a 'diamond man' into a 'coal man' so I'm not sure if it can stop Goku or not. I don't think it's a first move though.

 

[Spilxson2]

That shit is limited

How limited is his Mathematics Manipulation?

 

[Spilxson2]

I changed the rules to specify that Goku starts in his SSG form in order to stop Superman from one shotting him

 

[Chariot190]

PC supes ******* humiliates comp DBZ in skill. Like it isn't even a contest.

Even that millions of moves a second thing is beyond good enough given Nightwing is outperforming that and is what, hypersonic? DBZ characters being able to do millions of moves through speed, is not the same as being able to do that through skill, out predicting all those options, and beating ass.

Saying DBZ characters MFTL so they better is like saying Goku could beat an AI who calculates millions of chess moves a second. If they were equal speed, Goku would never be able to outpredict it. Same thing here.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Superman didn't one-shot before and now Goku one-shots

why did you change it

 

[Spilxson2]

Superman didn't one-shot before and now Goku one-shots

why did you change it

Wouldn't 4-B Goku who doesn't know about Superman's Attack Potency basically have no win conditions? I'll change it back if I have to I guess. I thought that if Superman really did have more skill, he wouldn't just let Goku one shot him

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Manga RoF Base Goku is >>>>>> 3 universes bruh

 

[Spilxson2]

Manga RoF Base Goku is >>>>>> 3 universes bruh

Oh. Okay. I'll make it Base Goku then

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

He already started in base either way my guy

 

[Spilxson2]

He already started in base either way my guy

Look, man. I'm still somewhat new here. I wanted to restrict SSG but apparently matches like that can only be added if the restricted ability goes into an entirely new tier. SSG Goku is still 2-C so it wouldn't work. Anyways, back to Goku starting in base

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

How many moves a second do you think DB characters can think when they have demonstrated the ability to fight and communicate at MFTL+ speeds? How about Goku who has displayed the ability to outthink someone who could skip through time despite thinking at MFTL+ speeds while skipping through time and being free to act. And that's Goku in his Base form.

To add further you keep on claiming this but I haven't seen a single scan to demonstrate it and Superman's profile doesn't even claim he has any notable Martial Arts skill. Here is Yamcha stating Gohan was said to be an 'unparalleled master of all martial arts'.

Show me the scans of Dick Grayson thinking at 'millions of moves a second' and show me the fight that makes Superman scale to that.

I never said that. I said that Grandpa Gohan has a similar statement of 'mastering all martial arts on Earth' and that Goku surpassed that when he was a child. And we also know Earth-based martial arts are far more advanced than IRL not just because of Ki but also because Roshi casually outclassed a guy who said he was a '30th level Black Belt in Kenpo' when it only goes up to 10th level IRL.

Comparatively Superman's profile states he is 'skilled at boxing and judo' and that while he trained under Muhammad Ali for two weeks in boxing and copied his fighting style he still lost. That doesn't give me any impression that he has skill anywhere near even early DB Goku and if he does then his profile doesn't reflect that and that's what we use for these matches.

I don't know what state DC revisions are in but if there isn't anything going on for Pre-Crisis Superman it would be a good idea to stir up interest for it and getting that done. So that if this match ends in Goku's favour you can get it removed.


To my recollection it was accepted that Super Saiyan 2 multiplies power by at least 500x because it was accepted Grade 3 Super Saiyan is 10x Super Saiyan and that SS2 scales above that. So Goku can multiply his stats by at least 500. And I believe Blue being 50x God is accepted so you can argue it's at least a 25,000x increase over base form.

No one has provided a scaling chain for Superman so I'm left with the impression that he is only baseline 3 2-C. Which isn't great for him because Manga Goku's profile states he absorbed the power of God into Base and he would have grown stronger via training under Whis for a year.

This is a lot to unpack so I'll try to go one by one

I don't think fighting at mftl+ speed means you can consecutively think of a certain amount of moves tbh, so that itself is a problem

As for superman, he has a **** TON of notable skill feats anyways, he's out boxed batman once and Muhammad isn't even the best person who trained superman, superman has been trained by batman, black canary, wildcat, and even wonder woman, Muhammad himself is very low end by comparison tbh (training under Muhammad isn't remotely impressive at all in the grand scheme of martial arts in DC, Superman doesn't just know boxing, he knows karate, muay thai etc) if you go solely off the profile Goku is more skilled but that profile sucks

 

[Spilxson2]

I wonder if Goku landing punches on hit even counts as a feat for his Resurrection F key

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I wonder if Goku landing punches on hit even counts as a feat for his Resurrection F key

That was after 3 years of training in the HTC so no

 

[Spilxson2]

Thought so

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Wow I'm seeing a few people saying Superman outskills Goku when his profile doesn't reflect that and there are no scans for it.

Give me scans.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I don't think fighting at mftl+ speed means you can consecutively think of a certain amount of moves tbh, so that itself is a problem

Goku processes and predicts a time skipper who can move at MFTL+ speeds. Instantly.

As for superman, he has a ***** TON of notable skill feats anyways,

Cool. Where are they? They aren't on his profile.

he's out boxed batman once and Muhammad isn't even the best person who trained superman,

Scans.

superman has been trained by batman, black canary, wildcat, and even wonder woman,

That says nothing. I can point out that Goku trained under Grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Popo, Kami, King Kai and Whis. With Grandpa Gohan being the least skilled fighter when he was stated to have mastered all forms of martial arts on Earth when DB Earth's martial arts are far above our own.

Muhammad himself is very low end by comparison tbh (training under Muhammad isn't remotely impressive at all in the grand scheme of martial arts in DC, Superman doesn't just know boxing, he knows karate, muay thai etc) if you go solely off the profile Goku is more skilled

That's great but Goku transcended what you just listed when he was a child. And the profiles are what we go off of when handling VS threads.

but that profile sucks

Which means it requires revisions and you need to substantiate what you say with scans.

 

[Chariot190]

Goku processes and predicts a time skipper who can move at MFTL+ speeds. Instantly.

Goku himself is MFTL+. It's no different then predicting a normal human who can skip time from his point of view. All Goku did was just predict what someone would do half a second ahead of time, after watching said person fight mind you. Which is extremely mundane when it comes to superhuman skills.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I wonder if Goku landing punches on hit even counts as a feat for his Resurrection F key

In terms of resisting Time Stop, no. In terms of skill you can debate it because all he did was have a bit of extra time under Whis and then 3 years of sparring with Vegeta. Whether or not that would elevate his skill level drastically is debatable. But I'll concede he's probably less skilled in his RoF key.

Goku himself is MFTL+. It's no different then predicting a normal human who can skip time from his point of view. All Goku did was just predict what someone would do half a second ahead of time,

Hit is at least SSG-level when fighting normally and can power up to near SSB-level. Goku predicted Hit's movements in Base form. SSG was accepted as over 250,000x Base form. So at bare minimum Hit had 0.1 seconds to act in stopped time with over 250,000x Goku's speed and Goku could still predict his movements. When Hit is considered one of the greatest martial artists in his entire universe and hides his hands in his pockets to disguise his movements.

So no. It isn't even remotely the same.

after watching said person fight mind you. Which is extremely mundane when it comes to superhuman skills.

Goku was unable to perceive Hit's attacks and Whis stated Goku would have to learn how to counter it by fighting Hit. Goku figured out how to counter Hit after being punched once.

So while Goku was able to deduce Hit moved faster than his teleportation and the Galactic King stated it 'could' have been him freezing time. None of that helps him figure out Hit's fighting style beyond "He can do whatever he wants in an unknown timeframe." Goku adapting to Hit's attacks and countering him occurred after being punched only once when he couldn't even perceive Hit's movement. And again, Hit is a MFTL+ fighter with 0.1 seconds to do anything he pleases and Goku could instantly deduce how Hit would attack him after being punched exactly once.

I don't know why this would even be relevant when we have zero evidence of Nightwing being able to think 'one million moves' in a single second anyways. No one has provided any scans for that claim.

 

[Chariot190]

Hit is at least SSG-level when fighting normally and can power up to near SSB-level. Goku predicted Hit's movements in Base form. SSG was accepted as over 250,000x Base form. So at bare minimum Hit had 0.1 seconds to act in stopped time with over 250,000x Goku's speed and Goku could still predict his movements. When Hit is considered one of the greatest martial artists in his entire universe and hides his hands in his pockets to disguise his movements.

So no. It isn't even remotely the same.

That's a whole lot of fluff in order to say "wow Goku predicted that some dude was gonna punch him".

That's it, nothing more, nothing less. It's a basic analytical prediction feat. Hits speed is a literal non factor because he didn't even make use of it, he was throwing like one punch and Goku retaliated. If anything it's a anti feat for hit if his ass is getting tagged by someone throwing a punch 250,000x below him, he'd be able to see it coming and just, ya know, avoid it?

It'd be like saying Deathstroke tagging the Flash who is like ten decillion times faster than him by predicting where he'd go is any more legit if you want to play the speed card.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's a whole lot of fluff in order to say "wow Goku predicted that some dude was gonna punch him".

A dude over 250,000x faster than him in skipped time.

That's it, nothing more, nothing less. It's a basic analytical prediction feat. Hits speed is a literal non factor because he didn't even make use of it, he was throwing like one punch and Goku retaliated. If anything it's a anti feat for hit if his ass is getting tagged by someone throwing a punch 250,000x below him, he'd be able to see it coming and just, ya know, avoid it?

You have no evidence for that. And saying it's an antifeat for Hit rather than Goku being an amazing prodigy (Who learned Ultra Instinct in less than 50 years of life) is silly at best.

It'd be like saying Deathstroke tagging the Flash who is like ten decillion times faster than him by predicting where he'd go is any more legit if you want to play the speed card.

The Flash being a jobbing jobbity jobber has no relation to this argument.

Again. Where are the scans for Nightwing thinking a million thoughts a second? You yourself brought it up earlier in the thread so surely you can give us a scan.

 

[Chariot190]

A dude over 250,000x faster than him in skipped time.

Yeah, except no..he only predicted where Hit was gonna be once time resumed. He didn't predict his next ten fucktillion moves in order, only the final result, and countered that instead.

You have no evidence for that. And saying it's an antifeat for Hit rather than Goku being an amazing prodigy (Who learned Ultra Instinct in less than 50 years of life) is silly at best.

Yeah I do? It's called that's quite literally what happened and no. Go look up that Rezero skill feat threads, we don't accept blatantly dumb shit like that. It's an anti feat for Hit because according to you he somehow didn't react to the punch Goku threw that from his perspective would have taken like 2 days to hit him. It doesn't matter if Goku is skilled, he isn't tagging a dude who's that much above him in speed unless Hit just straight up wasn't looking at him.

The Flash being a jobbing jobbity jobber has no relation to this argument.

It does as I'm calling yours just as bad, same situation. Hit's also a jobber (except actually, he literally got fed to Jiren to make him look better).
I'm tempted to make a CRT to straight up remove this skill feat from Goku if you're about to pull some 250,000x shit to hyperinflate it, because at that point it isn't a skill feat, it's an outlier.

Again. Where are the scans for Nightwing thinking a million thoughts a second? You yourself brought it up earlier in the thread so surely you can give us a scan.

Why the hell would I just have random comic scans ten times older than you on hand?
I might have read some comics so I know vaguely what he's talking about and I agreed with him, doesn't mean I save that shit in case I happen to need it in a Goku thread sometimes in the next half decade. Just look up some respect threads dude, surely you can do that much?