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Yet another Dressrosa CRT

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The_Calaca

The_Calaca

VS Battles
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This won't take too long outside of a single topic that I'm very conscious will generate some debate.

  • Move Enhanced Hearing from Dressrosa to Enies Lobby key for Franky as he was born with this and it's not an addition he did to himself during the Timeskip. Proof here.
Now for the main topic...

Upgrade every character comparable and stronger than Pica to Class T in Lifting Strength. Including Pica's physicals, erasing the Devil Fruit part from his descriptions.

I'm well aware that people will ask why, if Pica does this by using his fruit to move the stone. Well, that's wrong as that's not what Pica's fruit does at all.

In the scans below you will notice that always that Pica is referred they call him a Stone-Assimilation man. The only different instance is Law saying he can change the landscape with his powers but that changes nothing as Pica can't manipulate stone unless he has merged with it.

What does this mean? Well, as proved before, Pica does exert physical effort in his attacks while in his Golems, so anything he does is his feat, not his fruit's.

To sum it up, Pica's tier and Lifting Strength would be plain 7-A+ and Class T, and everyone who scales to him becomes Class T as well.

0737-002.png
0737-003.png
0748-006.png
0749-015.png
This shows that Pica can't move stone he's not assimilated with

0768-008.png
 
I agree with the ability for Trebol, Franky and Orlumbus above.

As for the Pica thing… I think I can agree with it but what is the Class T feat are the characters scaling. Are we assuming baseline or are you using this.
 
Yes, Pica's Class T feat is what should be scaled to Zoro and the rest of the characters.
 
KE? I thought it wasn't possible to get a timeframe from the feat. Is it possible to do a KE version of Flower Hill creation since the current one uses PE?
 
I did assume a 60 and 30 second timeframe just because of people reacting and it occurring during one of Doflamingo's speeches. I don't remember the context, cuz it's been a while.

But Pica didn't just move the ground to make the flower hill, but he moved the palace acrossed the country, lifted the smile factory, and something else iirc.
 
I disagree greatly with scaling Pica's base lifting strength to his feats when he is manipulating stone. There is no evidence he can lift that amount when he is not using his power and he (or anyone else in Dressrosa) had any comparable lifting strength feats like that.

Obviously Pica has to merge with the stone to manipulate it but that by itself is not proof he is solely using muscular strength to push and pull stone around.

I don't think it's just good enough that Pica has to merge with stone to manipulate it; that's just his powers. But you need to prove that he is capable of that level of lifting strength without merging with stone because right now it looks like he is only capable of it when he merges with stone.
 
Damage seems to make sense about Pica. The rest of Calaca's suggestions are probably fine to add.
 
I know you'd disagree, but really? A fallacy of disbelief is your only argument?

You have been proven wrong before when you said that Pica doesn't perform physical effort when Cin showed you that he was panting after throwing some punches, demonstrating that Pica does need to use his strength to move the rock. His fruit let him fuse with the stone and use it as his body, not control stone in a telekinetic-like fashion as he explicitly can't do such a thing without being in contact with the stone.

He assimilates stone to make it easier to control it. Why would he do a feat outside of his stone body if that makes the things easier for him? He merges inside the stone and becomes one with it as it's his body, but for that to work he needs to be strong enough to move, just like you'd need to if you weight 100kg. If your body isn't strong enough you can't move. Simple as that.

Claiming burden of proof over Pica not doing physical feats is absurd. It's like asking range feats from Luffy without stretching. Of course he's gonna do it with his powers. That makes things easier.

So if your only argument is going to be "he didn't do it" and "I don't think", I suggest you to not comment just for the sake of disagreeing.
 
My argument has never been "Pica is telekinetically controlling stone without touching it".

It's just that Pica's feats as far as the statues are concerned is that he is only capable of such feats when he is assimilated with the stone itself.

Pica's demonstrated feats with his stone manipulation are far higher than his physical feats, so where is the proof that his physical feats fully scale to his feats with the statue aside from just assuming it?

> It's like asking range feats from Luffy without stretching.

The simple response to that is "Luffy's range doesn't match up to his feats when he is stretching."

Likewise Pica has no demonstrated feats even close to when he is using his stone manipulation.
 
If you have to reach certain distance and you have do it as fast as you can, you'll use the tools you have at your disposal. Why'd Pica suddenly try to flex on everyone lifting the golem with his strength before mergin with it if it's way more efficient when using his powers.

If you want to say his DF feats are higher than his physical feats then you're comparing it to nothingness. Pica has no feats outside of the body at all, so you will always compare that to zero.

The thing is that those feats are his, not his DF. He doesn't control stone but assimilates it.

You need to prove that Pica can control stone without merging with it to disprove this.
 
The thing that bothers me about Pica's strength is that he isn't just moving the stone around in the traditional sense. The very shape and probably density of the stone changes which would mean a change in weight and energy required to pull/push. The very principls of physics are taken with a grain of salt around here for a reason but this is extra liberal with them.

Otherwise I agree that Asura should likely be counted. You do not remove abilities just because they haven't been used in a while. Amnesia? Sure. Loss of powers? Okay. Oh, we haven't seen him need to use it in a while? No.
 
>You need to prove that Pica can control stone without merging with it to disprove this.

Why would I need to do that? That has nothing to do with it.

He assimilates with stone, yes, which is what allows him to manipulate it. But how can you demonstrate that his feats of moving stone while merged with it are comparable to his ordinary body's physical lifting strength?
 
@Fix There's no evidence nor a single suggestion that's what his power does.

The second paragraph belongs to another CRT.

@Damage Because you're arguing against this. You should have some serious counter-evidence to think this isn't correct.

Pica has no feats outside his Golem Body. Again, you're comparing his feats to zero. Do you have any counter-point to Pica using physical strength to move his body and his DF not giving him the power to control stone, or are you going to keep going with this non-sensical discussion about Pica not doing a damn thing in base?
 
> Do you have any counter-point to Pica using physical strength to move his body and his DF not giving him the power to control stone, or are you going to keep going with this non-sensical discussion about Pica not doing a damn thing in base?

Seeing as the proposal is based entirely on an assumption on how Pica's powers work, I don't see why I need to bring up any evidence to disprove it.

It is up to you to substantiate that his physical strength in base is anywhere nearly comparable to his feats when assimilated with stone.

Especially if you're also trying to use this to scale to anyone physically comparable to Pica. You claim that Pica hasn't done a "damn thing in base", what about anyone else that's remotely comparable to him?

And it would be inaccurate to say Pica has nothing to show physically in base; he lifted and swung his massive sword which is unimpressive but at least something actually requiring lifting strength.
 
You can count me as neutral regarding Pica for the time being.
 
What? Before this thread we assumed Pica uses his power to shape the landscape. Now that I provided evidence that his fruit doesn't do that, that idea became the assumption, so no, you need to disprove it now because it turns out that the first interpretation was headcanon.

Do you read? Pica has little to no feats outside of his golem. You're comparing it to zero. Also, his sword? Even you acknowledge that's not a feat at all. The best you'd get from that is Class 1. Does that mean we can disprove this entire premise over a few feats?

Most of the LS feats happened to be casual and with things way lower than Class G (I bet only a few would be Class K). The most impressive is Zoro cutting Pica's statue and lifting it in the air with the impact, which by the weight of it is in the higher end of Class G.

Your whole reasoning relies on an AoE Fallacy analogue and fallacy from disbelief, instead of arguing against the evidence I provided in the OP.
 
The only evidence you provided in the OP for it is that Pica is a stone-assimilation man and can only manipulate stone when he is merged with it.

I don't see that as a supporting point; it's just a fact that his power requires him to merge with stone to control it as Viola said. That doesn't mean that when he manipulates the stone he is only using physical strength to do it. There's no evidence that Pica merged with stone to create a mountain-sized version of himself is just as strong as regular Pica.

For a scenario with a comparable power this would be like saying that Doflamingo's base lifting strength scales to the Birdcage since he can manipulate the strings he creates and therefore his base Lifting Strength is greater than the combined forces of the Straw Hats, Marines, and all other fighters in Dressrosa since it required all of them pushing together to slow down his Birdcage.
 
The thing is that your argument relies on assuming is the Devil Fruit that gives the power to control the stone, which isn't the case as I've pointed out above. If the DF doesn't give that power, then it has to be Pica's physicals as the stone isn't magically moving by itself just because. And if you think so, please provide the evidence of that being the case, not scans that show nothing but Pica using or not using his powers.

Here's my argument:

  • Pica's fruit doesn't control stone.
  • Pica moves stone.
  • Pica's moving the stone by himself.
Your argument:

  • Pica's fruit doesn't control stone.
  • Pica moves stone.
  • Pica's moving the stone through some unknown method as his fruit doesn't control stone.
  • Pica's not moving the stone by himself.
Occams Razor supports my argument.

His fruit is what basically give him the ability to shapeshift the stone and the landscape by merging with it. Nothing about changing the density nor controlling the stone in a hax-like manner.

He should, but I digress.
 
I'm not saying that the stone is just moving through magic, but I do think it is part of his Devil Fruit power.

Viola states he can move the walls at will. Law says that he can change the layout of the land with his stone powers. So his powers are definitely involved here, it isn't just him physically pushing and pulling stone but his control over stone comes from his Devil Fruit.

It is looking a lot more likely to me that his strength with the stone golems is proportional to the amount of stone he has available. His attack with a smaller stone golem appears weaker than his attack with his biggest stone golem, and I wouldn't say this is the AOE fallacy at all but rather just common sense that a bigger stone golem to attack with is more powerful than a smaller stone golem.
 
Yeah, you need to provide evidence outside of two scans that say nothing about that.

Viola's statement has nothing to do with anything. It's a very vague statement without a single explanation. Yeah, Luffy can stretch at will as well. What's your point?

Law's statement doesn't say anything either.

"He changes the landscape with his powers"

His power is to assimilate stone, not to move it.

Funny, because it is, actually. Bigger punch = Bigger AoE.

I'm done. Prove that Pica moves the stone with the Devil Fruit power or drop it. You're just wasting everyone's time with an unnecessary denial with zero counter evidence outside of your beliefs, two statements with nothing to prove and a bunch of fallacies.
 
> His power is to assimilate stone, not to move it.

By assimilating with the stone, he becomes able to move it. Hence why stone he is not assimilated to is no longer able to be moved by him.

> Prove that Pica moves the stone with the Devil Fruit power or drop it.

Prove that he moves it using nothing but physical strength.

You're acting like the only way someone could have stone manipulating powers is if they can move stone that they aren't touching.

He can clearly the manipulate the stone in other ways than just forming bodies out of it seeing as he can make multiple stone tentacles at will and other shapes.
 
Yes, the assimilated stone is easier to control than the not-assimilated stone.

https://**********.com/manga/One-Piece/0748-005.png

"Fffh, fffh".
 
Can somebody remind me about the summarised conclusions here please?
 
Well, there's two conflicting schools of thought.

Calaca believes that Pica's base physicals such as his durability, attack potency, striking strength and lifting strength should scale to his feat of manipulating stone while he is immersed in it.

I think that the feats are a great deal higher than anything he has shown capable of without his devil fruit and that since these feats depending on him merging with the stone to manipulate it that his ordinary lifting strength isn't comparable to what he can do with his devil fruit.
 
Because you're comparing it to him lifting his sword and you're treating that as the biggest feat he could scale of.
 
Well, I am uncertain either way. It depends on if it is treated as purely mental telekinesis or physical power-related.
 
@Wrath of Itachi; that's what I'm in favor of. Seems like the simplest solution to me.
 
Said solution goes against the power's description though.

His power is to assimilate his body with stone, not to move stone. When he merges with the stone it becomes his body, and it doesn't grant any kind of supernatural characteristic.
 
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