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Yet another Dressrosa CRT

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Destructive Capability in One Piece is, more often than not, reliant on Devil Fruit powers. Pica uses his stone body so he can control the Royal Plateau and gain not only the ability to perform destructive attacks with far more AoE than anything he could perform by himself, but to hide and prevent getting damaged from any enemy who might be a threat to his stone bodies.

It's not that he lacks AP, as demonstrated when he faced against Zoro and none of them did significant harm to each other, but he lacks range and AoE. It's obviously more convenient to squash a bug to use a big tool (IDK what's its name in english so I can't quote it well) instead of going personally. His fruit is to assimilate stone. The stone becomes his body, and he can manipulate the stone in whatever form he pleases as long as it's connected to more stone he's assimilated with.

It's more eficient to build a several thousand meters tall stone golem to destroy the Plateau than just going personally, exposing himself to any enemy's attack and spend more time trying to get the job done when just by slapping the ground you can achieve such a thing if you have a stone golem.

That's not counting the fact that in no instance his power is referred as Stone Manipulation but Assimilation: assimilation noun [ U ] /ə╦îs╔¬m.╔¬╦êle╔¬.╩âən/ us /ə╦îs╔¬m.ə╦êle╔¬.╩âən/

assimilation noun (INTO GROUP)

the process of becoming a part, or making someone become a part, of a group, country, society, etc.:
Seeing all of this, it's natural to see Pica manipulating stone in a way that shouldn't be normally possible. His body has to be merged with stone to gain control over it. He can't control stone that he isn't in contact with, therefore Telekinesis and regular Stone Manipulation aren't accurate for this case.

Pica has to merge with the stone and has proved he exerts physical effort to perform some actions. Otherwise, he'd not be panting after throwing a punch when he has done that in several occassions already without doing so. That's because all of his feats are absurdly casual as he makes no effort at all.

Again, no indication of Pica's fruit being Stone Manipulation should discount that. The form he presents his power as matters not when using Charlestone (I could even argue he's doing razor claws based on his fingers with the stone) because that's the effect of him merging his body with the stone, gaining total control over it.

And even if for some reason we count this as a weird telekinesis, the fact that this gives no strain at all should make it scalable anyway, for this kind of powers tolls the user.

Any other description is outright headcanon based on a few instances where the stone takes a weird form that doesn't debunk the simple fact that Pica's fruit assimilates stone and doesn't control it by itself.

Any rebuttal that doesn't adress this should be entirely ignored as it doesn't refer to the main point of the proposal.
 
@Calaca

He assimilates stone, yes. He touches it, and as a result of such, can now freely manipulate it.

The disconnect is where you claim that being part of it means that he is using physical strength to move it, whereas the opposition is that his assimilating it gives him free control over it. We know for a fact his body isn't contorting to move all this stone since we are shown his body stays static.

Him exerting effort to use his Devil's Fruit is akin to people becoming winded after using too much Haki; that doesn't mean that Charlotte Katakuri was actually physically using strength to see into the future (as we see Luffy comment on extended use of Haki winds the body). It means that esoteric abilities in One Piece require concentration.

Pica's concentration was being overwhelmed by his absurdly huge usage of his ability here, thus the exertion/exhaustion.

It makes consistent sense and engages your points directly.
 
@Calaca; I don't see how needing to merge with the stone proves that it isn't "regular stone manipulation". There is no such thing as "regular stone manipulation" in fiction since the ability can vary.

All his showing prove that Pica's ability allows him to merge with stone and control it.

As Qaws said up above, there is nothing suggesting Pica's ordinary physical abilities scale in any way to his manipulation of stone. Even if some effort is exerted like you say, there is nothing linking that to his base physical abilities.

It almost feels like you're on the verge of agreeing with me, since I do agree that he "merges his body with the stone, gaining total control over it."

I think you're getting hung up on the assimiliation word too much.
 
Calc makes sense the majority of the fight betwren pica people were more concerned on knowing his weakness than his overall strength.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Pica is a Paramecia type of DF user and his DF doesn't have any physical effects on his body unlike Luffy. I don't see why we should scale his physical strength to his stone manipulation strength if he doesn't showcase a feat that indicates they're similar.
Considering he consistently uses stone to attack people rather than his physicals, I'm in agreement with Xul and Damage. If his base = stone AP, then he wouldn't use his stones to attack as much as he does.
Click to expand...
I agree to that.
 
@Xulrev

Exactly my point. HE manipulates the stone, not the fruit. It doesn't change its density. It becomes HIS body. HIS energy is what he needs to move as such. Otherwise, Ishi Ishi Fruit would be the actual strongest Paramecia, as even newbies can perform 7-A level attacks after just eating it because they need no physical power to use it.

When has been shown to be static inside the golems tho? We never see the golems from Pica's PoV and we don't know how he does that.

Now YOU're using esoteric powers to quantify AP. Quite double standard if you ask me. And false equivalency as precognition is nowhere similar to moving stone at all.

That's an assumption if you don't bring evidence. Pica was panting after throwing a punch while heavily angered. And if we want to play the AP value card, moving the biggest golem is by far more straining that throwing a punch with the first one yet he shows no signs of fatigue at all.

@Damage

Yes, he controls the stone. He does it by moving it by itself. Telekinesis or "density manipulation" are nothing but assumptions.

Why would Pica pant then? The evidence is that Pica merges with the stone. The stone and his body becomes one, therefore the stone is his body. Based on this, and the fact that he has shown physical stress after using the power, it's clear evidence that the Devil Fruit has nothing to do with this but Pica's physicals do.

In any case, you're agreeing with me as I brought this up.

@Xulrev

Pica becomes one with the stone, but it's obviously not intended to be some kind of EVA that reflects any damage to him as he uses it to avoid getting injured.


I don't get why is this so hard to understand.

  • Pica's fruit is assimilating stone.
  • He has shown physical stress after using it.
  • No implication of the DF nor a sub-power doing so.
  • Pica can't move stone he's not in contact with.
Conclusion:

Pica moves the stone by himself after merging.
 
> Pica can't move stone he's not in contact with.

I don't see how this is a supporting point.

Nobody is saying that he can manipulate stone without merging with it.

> The stone and his body becomes one, therefore the stone is his body.

So what you're saying is that Pica essentially has a new body after merging with stone. So I don't see how we can backscale it to his ordinary base physicals which aren't shown to be anywhere comparable to his feats with stone manipulation.

> Telekinesis or "density manipulation" are nothing but assumptions.

Nobody is saying he is literally using telekinesis or density manipulation. This seems almost like a strawman.

> Why would Pica pant then?

You just said up above that Pica was pretty angry when he threw that punch. That could be a possible reason.
 
Yeah, can't disagree with Damage here.

There are too many contextual factors at play to utilize the 'panting' argument as such an important crux of the whole thing.

Everything else was already addressed or not properly rebutted
 
You avoiding the main point is really pissing me off at this point. Not to mention you haven't brought up any of the things I asked you to do before, just stressing the same discussion over and over ad nauseam without facts.

The fact that he doesn't control stone he's not merged with is supporting the fact that his fruit is not to control stone. Otherwise, he'd do without getting into it.

IDK where do you come from, but english language has assimilation as the phenomena as becoming a part of something, not controlling it. His fruit has been referred as such since always.

Because as I pointed above, Pica doesn't use the golems to enhance his physical capabilities. It's not even mentioned once, and if so, show me. Prove me wrong. Until then, saying he enhances his AP/Dura with it is nothing but your headcanon.

And you keep saying that his physicals ain't comparable even when I told you his physical feats are basically non-existent. He did three things in his human form:

  • Lifting a sword.
  • Clashing with Zoro.
  • Getting rekt by Zoro.
You're comparing nothing to his feats, in other words. It's like doing a race. One of the cars can't go at full speed because it only will be in the race for three seconds and will come back home because dinner time, and you compare it to the winner of the race, who didn't quit the race. Such stupid comparison shouldn't even be considered as "evidence" at all.

He can't get bigger stats from his new stone body as there's no mention that the stone gets enhancements from Pica's powers. His stone body is just a big ass armour he uses to protect himself and get more AoE, not to gain power. Otherwise, someone as battle clever as Zoro would have say something about that.

Your argument relies on Pica having a power besides his stone-assimilation to not scale it to his physicals.
 
@Calac

I feel you're arguing past mine and Damage's points here.

You're claiming we did not engage the core points when....we explicitly did.

I understand getting upset but honestly this is becoming a large "No u" battle of contradiction.
 
> The fact that he doesn't control stone he's not merged with is supporting the fact that his fruit is not to control stone. Otherwise, he'd do without getting into it.

Sorry, I don't see how you could come to this conclusion at all.

> Otherwise, someone as battle clever as Zoro would have say something about that.

This also seems like a big assumption not based on anything.

> Your argument relies on Pica having a power besides his stone-assimilation to not scale it to his physicals.

No, the argument that we're making is that Pica assimilating with stone is what allows him to control it, not his physicals.

Hence why he can manipulate stone in unconventional ways that you could do just through pushing and pulling it.
 
I think @Calaca makes a better argument for the scaling continuing.

@Damage & @Xulrev arguments:

Basically this comes down they think Pica moves the stone telekinetically or akin to telekinesis. The very definition of telekinesis is using thoughts only. Having to be in actual contact in anyway is literally the anti thesis of telekinesis. For that reason this should be dismissed for the same reason we don't take 2+2=3 seriously.

There are a lot of benefits to moving stone instead of punching even if the AP is the same. @Calaca already listed some. So that counter argument is null and void at this point.
 
Dr.Fix said:
I think @Calaca makes a better argument for the scaling continuing.
@Damage & @Xulrev arguments:

Basically this comes down they think Pica moves the stone telekinetically or akin to telekinesis. The very definition of telekinesis is using thoughts only. Having to be in actual contact in anyway is literally the anti thesis of telekinesis. For that reason this should be dismissed for the same reason we don't take 2+2=3 seriously.

There are a lot of benefits to moving stone instead of punching even if the AP is the same. @Calaca already listed some. So that counter argument is null and void at this point.
Click to expand...
Pica moves stone the way Katakuri moves his Mochi from afar.

Hopefully that makes it more straightforward for you
 
I feel like we shouldn't compare the two. Idk why but one is from awakening for sure.

Pica isn't turning the ground into something else but becoming it.

I jsut don't think they should be compared
 
AstralKing7 said:
I feel like we shouldn't compare the two. Idk why but one is from awakening for sure.
Pica isn't turning the ground into something else but becoming it.

I jsut don't think they should be compared
Click to expand...
It's not a comparison of their power, it's a comparison in how Devil Fruit users can manipulate things they create from afar.

It's two Paramecia fruit users in question. The mechanism via which a DF user can move things with their fruit has precedence, and thereby I'm using it analagously for Pica
 
Eminiteable said:
Katakuri does his via awakening; i.e pretty much a mastery of a fruit.
Click to expand...
Y'all keep not understanding what I'm saying...

The mechanism of using a form of TK to move that which a DF user is intimately tied to has precedence, and is the most aplicable to Pica's fruit.
 
let me give my opinion that nobody probably care about but whatevs

Firstly, the links to the abilities for the addition to characters are not working so need some fix around there so I can see them.

And for the Pica's topic. Pica's DF is all about that assimilation as he merge with any stone by him, i.e he shove his consciousness inside the stone. It's kinda somewhat similar to Enel moving through gold and tree in a way. Pica's consciousness is now inside whatever stone structure he's in so isn't it up to Pica to physically move/lift the stone to form shape like his massive golem and move around in it. His DF doesn't enhance what isn't there as it just shove his consciousness into his element (which is stone) and the rest is up to Pica sorely.

He's shown to exert physical effort given he was breathing hard after throwing a punch when he first appeared in his massive golem, and has shown to be in pain whenever he's attack with his consciousness in it.
 
KobsterHope07 said:
He's shown to exert physical effort given he was breathing hard after throwing a punch when he first appeared in his massive golem, and has shown to be in pain whenever he's attack with his consciousness in it.
Click to expand...
Got literally any proof of him feeling the pain of his golems?
 
>How can you come to such conclusion

Elementary, Damage. It's shown to be the case. If Pica can control the stone, he'd not need to merge with it.

>Big assumption

So Pica becoming stronger with golems despite not being stated once isn't an assumption? C'mon, I know you can bring something better than that. If this were the case you'd have the scan supporting this idea, but your whole argument relies on wrong grounds.

>Pica's functions

Pica'd need to be that strong to move the Plateau, tho. He has shown physical exertion after using his fruit. If his power is truly master control over stone he wouldn't feel fatigue at all. He's moving the stone.

Never thought of the possibility that Charlestone and similar techniques are his fingers or the sharp shaped shoulders he has? Body Control isn't rare in OP and for something like that he'd need to use a shoulder bash in stone.

@Xulrev

Pica doesn't create stone, and your Katakuri's argument is also flawed as he'd scale to such prowress anyway.

The stone isn't sentient. It merges with Pica in the sense where he can freely control it, but since the point of that power is to not get hit, giving him such weakness is counter-productive.

Prove me that Pica's fruit is to manipulate stone.

Prove me that Pica enhances his AP with stone.

You've never tackled these two points, which are the core of this argument.

Pica's fruit is stone assimilation.

He shows physical strain when using it.

There's no evidence that he enhances nothing but range and AoE from bigger golems. Nor a single statement in the manga or supportive canon like the Databook. Just the assumption that he becomes stronger because his attacks have more AoE in bigger forms. Well, no shit Sherlock.

@Qawsdef

The point of this thread is to prove that Pica's physicals are tied to his feats. The opposition uses vague out-of-context statements, several assumptions and do not refer to the main point.

Not to mention they don't even bring conclusive evidence in the form of scans.

I'm aware that you might disagree with me because we used to not do this before, but the evidence is quite clear: If Pica's fruit doesn't grant natural control over stone and he needs to dig in it to move it, to then show he has to push physical effort to perform an attack, then the fruit isn't doing that for him.
 
> If Pica can control the stone, he'd not need to merge with it.

That assumes there's only one kind of stone manipulation. The kind where you can control with it from a range.

> Pica's fruit is stone assimilation.

That's exactly what we're saying too. Saying "he's assimilating the stone" isn't proving your side, since that's what we're accepting too. He assimilates with the stone, and he's able to manipulate it.

> Not to mention they don't even bring conclusive evidence in the form of scans.

You mean you've ignored the scans that have been posted so far. We've already shown to you that Pica can manipulate stone he's assimilated.

> He shows physical strain when using it.

Someone using telekinesis (as an example) might show strain from using it; but we still wouldn't scale their ability to their physical stats without it.

I notice you haven't offered any proof that Pica's base AP is anywhere remotely comparable to this.

Or that characters comparable to Pica have anywhere remotely near the lifting strength required to carry the royal palace and raise a mountain.

> So Pica becoming stronger with golems despite not being stated once isn't an assumption?

To use your own words, in this case it is elementary. Bigger stone golems have shown bigger attack power than smaller stone golems. Look at the difference in scale between his attacks. It isn't solely a matter of range.
 
If he can't control it at range, has to merge with it, and shows physical fatigue when using it, everything points at Pica doing the trick, with the fruit letting him control the stone as it were his body.

You still can't debunk that Pica heavy breaths after using the fruit. Why would he do that if he doesn't exert physical effort at all? Suddenly got asthma?

Ignored what? The Charlestone? I don't see any scan proving wrong my argument. Can you quote what's exactly meant to counter them?

Assuming Telekinesis is the real method used, but that's an assumption you can't prove. And you got the nerve to call me for strawmaning when you're literally implying Telekinesis has the same drawbacks but at the same time saying this isn't TK. Pick your poison.

AoE Fallacy again? That's not even Tier 7 DC. He also clashed with Zoro for an unknown timeframe without getting overwhelmed.

What's your proof they can't? Not saying they can so you can't pull a NLF on me, but mountains vary in size and we have seen even half-dead Luffy tossing a big cliff around. Unquantifiable feat, but still. If we apply this to any feat we'd end up having 10-A for all verses because nobody would scale to anyone. You're literally calling a feat unusable because you don't believe the people who'd scale to this is this strong. Fallacy from Disbelief.

Still without evidence that Pica gets stronger. You're calling AoE Fallacy evidence yet you can't back up your point with a single scan if it's so obvious? Didn't I told ya that the purpose of the stone is to hide Pica's body? In any instance he refers himself as stronger with more stone available to his shit.
 
> You still can't debunk that Pica heavy breaths after using the fruit.

I've already mentioned that Pica was enraged during this time. Getting angry / emotional leads to heavier breathing.

> AoE Fallacy again? That's not even Tier 7 DC. He also clashed with Zoro for an unknown timeframe without getting overwhelmed.

Funny that, because from what I can tell him clashing with Zoro is definite proof that his physical abilities aren't anywhere near as strong as his stone golems.

The amount of force is clearly on a different level.
 
Why would he heavy breathes if he doesn't exert physical effort? Take note that he wasn't screaming when he punched the ground, so that must come from moving the stone.

Zoro didn't even try to block the attack unlike when he, you know, jumped to clash with Pica. FFS, he was laughing at Pica's voice, clearly distracted from the giant punch coming at them.

Not to mention that outside of a few examples, AoE isn't common in OP as I mentioned above. DF or Haki related feats are the most common when we talk about AoE, with a few exceptions like Elizabello whose power is definitely different from the average.
 
I mean heavy breathing in fiction isn't always indicative of physical effort most especially when dealing with supernatural powers. Take The Invisible Woma for example, her powers aren't tied to her physical condition they are largely mental, but there are several instances where she shows strain when exerting her powers, does that mean she's exerting herself physically? No.

Not getting involved just felt like pointing that out.
 
@Davidsteel1; agreed. I think I pointed that out earlier in the thread too with the analogy towards telekinesis.
 
Yeah, still agree with Damage and stand by my point.

The entire crux of scaling Pica to his stone assimilation powers being physical seems to be 'but he breathed hard literally one time'.

That's....literally the most damning argument for why we should scale him? An ad hoc presumption of why a character would breathe heavily after having their rage-button triggered because his voice was made fun of?

This, in addition to ignoring the fact that esoteric abilities like Haki cause mental strain that exhaust people and make them pant, that using other esoteric abilities exhausts people and makes them pant, that just being in an extended combat with someone such as Zoro could exhaust someone and make them pant.

I dunno Calaca, the fact that the hardest-hitting point of your argumentation is "But he panted" after a rage-fuelled strike just.....doesn't hold up. At all. It's a presumption that shouldn't be given weight over any of a plethora of equally-valid conclusions to draw for why such behavior occurred.

It's just not accurate
 
Davidsteel1 said:
I mean heavy breathing in fiction isn't always indicative of physical effort most especially when dealing with supernatural powers. Take The Invisible Woma for example, her powers aren't tied to her physical condition they are largely mental, but there are several instances where she shows strain when exerting her powers, does that mean she's exerting herself physically? No.
Not getting involved just felt like pointing that out.
Click to expand...
Not the best example as her profile lists absorbing light and her base stats are unknown.
 
>>The entire crux of scaling Pica to his stone assimilation powers being physical seems to be 'but he breathed hard literally one time'.

If you beleive that then you have NOT been paying attention and I suggest you read the thread again.
 
@Dr Fix

His most recent reply literally only argues for that. I suggest you might take that medicine first before prescribing it to others
 
@Dr.Fix yes, she absorbs light but that ability is an application of her invisibility and shield generation- both mental abilities. And while her physicals are unknown anyone with a cursory knowledge of marvel will tell u her base stats definitely don't scale to her shields, but that is by the way and isn't really relevant to my point.

The point I'm making is that her abilities are wholly mental in nature, they have not been shown to be reliant on her physically exerting herself and instead rely on her mentally exerting herself but yet she shows exhaustion either way. In instances where supernatural powers are being employed, using a character breathing hard as evidence of physical exertion is insufficient when more often than not stuff like profuse sweating and heavy breathing are also used to signify mental strain as well.
 
Pica's DF is about assimilating himself with stone and merging his consciousness with it. Afterward, it is up to him to move the stone and manipulate it as if it was his own body. There's nothing to imply that it is TK or akin to it which I keep seeing mentions of it above. That would defeat the purpose of his Fruit making him a Stone Assimilation Human and how it used. Even the scene when he was introduced have him physically move the hallway together to crush Luffy, Zoro and Viola. There would also be no need for him to be in the Stone Golem if he could simply move it about with just his mind as long as it is in contact with stone
 
I don't see how that defeats the purpose of the fruit. He merges with it, yes. But there is nothing linking the feats Pica is capable of with his stone manipulation to his base physicals.
 
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