Xenoverse and Heroes possible separation

[ThanatosX]

At this point I think that "2-B, possibly 2-A" for Heroes' characters might be the best option, but for now I will stay neutral and see other arguments.

 

[Braking]

lets take a break for now

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Well heroes still has it thankfully. And what was the shin budokai one originally?

"Fight to your heart's content in your favorite world and time period, and then destroy it in a heap and move on to another world."

This is a machine translation so it's probably not 100% accurate. Though the Kanji for a word like "endless" isn't there

 

[Rez]

"Fight to your heart's content in your favorite world and time period, and then destroy it in a heap and move on to another world."

This is a machine translation so it's probably not 100% accurate. Though the Kanji for a word like "endless" isn't there

Can you give me the japanese text

 

[StrymULTRA]

At this point I think that "2-B, possibly 2-A" for Heroes' characters might be the best option, but for now I will stay neutral and see other arguments.

And making it an exception while other verses are stuck to 2-B? This heavily contradicts our standards and makes the wiki looking like biased towards the verse

 

[Nullflowerblush]

At this point I think that "2-B, possibly 2-A" for Heroes' characters might be the best option, but for now I will stay neutral and see other arguments.

It's-
It's really not.

Heroes does not scale to Xenoverse, or Budokai Tenkaichi, or Fusions, or Shin Budokai, or Kakarot, or any of that.

Yes, Heroes the game does include characters from those outside games, and even from other media like the 4-D events, and non-canon spin-off manga, and One Piece. But no, these characters, and their respective universes and rules, and their cosmology do not canonically apply to Heroes the story.

Heroes the story is unaffected by what Heroes the game includes. Heroes the game simply serves as a medium for Heroes the story to exist through. Beat isn't even a part of Heroes the story—he has his own separate little campaign in the game.

As of currently, Heroes bases its cosmology off of the Toei material—the movies, GT, and the Super anime most notably. Until further evidence confirms that Heroes and Xenoverse are connected (P.S., they're not) or even that Heroes itself encompasses infinite timelines, they stick to 2-B.

 

[ThanatosX]

Not saying that Heroes and Xenoverse share the same cosmology. It's obvious that they don't and using this argument to give Heroes a 2-A rating is wrong in my opinion.

But at this point it all depends on the "endless universes" statement and how it should be considered by our standards.

A scan of this statement would help in the final decision since it would give better context.

 

[Ss3micah]

Endless literally just means "so much that it doesn't seem to have an end", a bit like countless means "so much that it's impossibile to count". If we want to go from synonyms we'd make any countless timelines 2-A and that's obviously not the case.

According to Oxford
Endless means having or seeming to have no end or limit.

 

[Everything12]

I personally think we should just give a flat 2-B, because we have only given that to other Verses with Endless Cosmologies and Heroes doesn't have any actual proof that its Cosmology is the same as Heroes. We would just be going off assumption because they share similar attributes, which is not something a proper Indexing Site that strives on accuracy should do.

 

[StrymULTRA]

According to Oxford
Endless means having or seeming to have no end or limit.

And we always apply the second meaning for low end without further context.

 

[Ss3micah]

Everything you just said was unfathomably incorrect and blatantly disregards everything that has been brought up in the thread to this point.

There is an Explanation on who Demigra is in Xenoverse
Their isn't in Heroes

He just shows up and they kinda expect you to know who he is already

If I'm wrong then find the explanation in heroes that explains who Demigra is

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Can you give me the japanese text

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669891148143394826/705797035017633872/Screenshot_260.png

 

[Ss3micah]

I personally think we should just give a flat 2-B, because we have only given that to other Verses with Endless Cosmologies and Heroes doesn't have any actual proof that its Cosmology is the same as Heroes. We would just be going off assumption because they share similar attributes, which is not something a proper Indexing Site that strives on accuracy should do.

My point was that we could give a possibly rating just from the implications that Heroes cosmology mirrors XV

But if that is not enough for a possiblity rating then I'm down with 2B

 

[Everything12]

There is an Explanation on who Demigra is in Xenoverse
Their isn't in Heroes

He just shows up and they kinda expect you to know who he is already

If I'm wrong then find the explanation in heroes that explains who Demigra is

This is not evidence even if said explanation doesn't exist. This is an assumption, which this Wiki should never use. Give actual statements that tell of a connection, otherwise, we are to treat them as completely separate Cosmologies.

 

[ThanatosX]

I personally think we should just give a flat 2-B, because we have only given that to other Verses with Endless Cosmologies and Heroes doesn't have any actual proof that its Cosmology is the same as Heroes. We would just be going off assumption because they share similar attributes, which is not something a proper Indexing Site that strives on accuracy should do.

If by our standards endless cosmologies are 2-B, than I agree that Heroes' characters should be just 2-B.

 

[Dominodalek]

There is an Explanation on who Demigra is in Xenoverse
Their isn't in Heroes

He just shows up and they kinda expect you to know who he is already

If I'm wrong then find the explanation in heroes that explains who Demigra is

They absolutely do explain who Demigra is, half the point of his debut story is to introduce him.

Plus there are a bunch of explanations on the official website, in guidebooks, and in the volumes of the SDBH manga where he appears.

 

[Everything12]

So Dominodalek, would you be okay with creating Sandboxes for the new versions of the Profiles with the different canons split by tabbers?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Without further context “endless” is 2-B.

Regarding cross-scaling, if they’re truly completely different continuities then sharing similar attributes is not enough to warrant the assumption that they share the the same cosmology. That’s like scaling video game Sonic (2-C) to the Archie Comics (2-A - Low 1-C) version because their cosmologies are functionally identical in various aspects.

 

[AKM sama]

This seems like a good solution, given the uncertainty with "endless".

Uh no, without any context:

Endless = 2-B

Countless = 2-B

Infinite = 2-A

There is no uncertainty. These are hard standards.

 

[Antvasima]

Are you certain? I thought that endless can mean infinite depending on the context.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I always had Endless as Infinite as well, but it seems that it is indeed context based

 

[Vietthai96]

The only thing we can do about endless is a possibly rating at best, but again it come down to interpretation and standard, cuz Endless is like........middle area, between countless and infinite

 

[Bernkastelll]

So, let me see if I got it

Countless =unknown number due how high it is

Endless = has a start but has no end

Infinite = doesnt have a start nor end, hence, it is infinite
?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Just flat 2-B unless context point towards infinite.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Why are we discussing "endless" when the statements we have don't have such word?

 

[Vietthai96]

Why are we discussing "endless" when the statements we have don't have such word?

Bruhhhhhh

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Endless without context isn't anything to be honest, it shouldn't be 2-B by default, but it should neither be 2-A

If you have a statement like "endless creation/branching of timelines" then it should be 2-B

If you have a statement like "there is an endless amount of timelines" then it should be 2-A

As Bern said, the meaning of "Endless" is context based, so it having a default tier assumption is wrong.


That's what i think.

This is irrelevant to our thread tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

Are you certain? I thought that endless can mean infinite depending on the context.

Context that DBH lacks. Plus AKM and Everything already pointed this out

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Since we've clarified the 2-B whole thing, can we start discussing the scaling for the characters now?

 

[Dominodalek]

So this is what we currently have: everyone who scales to Xeno Trunks (who in turn scales to Past Demigra after absorbing Tokitoki) will be 2-C. Everyone who scales to TPU Mechikabura will be 2-B. Everyone else (which isn't many) will probably be somewhere in Tier 3.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Everyone else (which isn't many) will probably be somewhere in Tier 3.

I thought all of them would be at very least Low 2-C because upscaling from DBS charas

 

[Dominodalek]

I thought all of them would be at very least Low 2-C because upscaling from DBS charas

Anyone who could qualify for that would already scale to Trunks, and thus be 2-C. I'm talking people like base Mira and Towa, early Xeno Bardock and Kid Buu.

 

[Antvasima]

Why are we discussing "endless" when the statements we have don't have such word?

Please explain further.

 

[Everything12]

The quote says countlss instead of endless.

 

[Antvasima]

So this is what we currently have: everyone who scales to Xeno Trunks (who in turn scales to Past Demigra after absorbing Tokitoki) will be 2-C. Everyone who scales to TPU Mechikabura will be 2-B. Everyone else (which isn't many) will probably be somewhere in Tier 3.

Anyway, if there is indeed no mention of endless in the original Japanese text, I trust Dominodalek's sense of judgement.

 

[Antvasima]

The quote says countless instead of endless.

Okay. Never mind then. That is just 2-B.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

(who in turn scales to Past Demigra after absorbing Tokitoki) will be 2-C

Wouldn't they be 2-B, since Tokitoki's responsible for the creation of all timelines and has restored the entire Multiverse on occasion?

Everyone who scales to TPU Mechikabura will be 2-B.

Is there any way to argue that Mechikabura's 2-B feat was done with hax?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Wouldn't they be 2-B, since Tokitoki's responsible for the creation of all timelines and has restored the entire Multiverse on occasion?

Is there any way to argue that Mechikabura's 2-B feat was done with hax?

I think you're joking here but anyway...He gets his TPU form from the same black hole, so he actually gets boosted in power in the arcade. Basically the time he absorbed is what powers him up. He gets all the power from those timelines

So no, Mechikabura being 2-B is legit.

As for TokiToki, we have some problems

He has 1 2-B statement , which however falls under stabilization feats (his existence being important for all dimensions)

His True Form has a 2-B creation feat.

And in base he's comparable to DogiDogi, who is stated to be able to destroy all 12 universes. Which is 2-C

Unrelated to TokiToki, we have another 2-C feat, since Demon God Gravy destroyed a timeline

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

As for TokiToki, we have some problems

He has 1 2-B statement , which however falls under stabilization feats

His True Form has a 2-B creation feat.

And in base he's comparable to DogiDogi, who is stated to be able to destroy all 12 universes. Which is 2-C

Although we do need clarification if having complete control over all space-time counts as AP which would obviously make Toki Toki 2-B in base